View Full Version : new CDI diesels to appear in SL, SLK-class
A new line of CDI engines has been unveiled in Geneve.
And here are the stats of the shocking ones :
SL400 CDI: V8, 315HP/730 Nm
0-100 Kph in less than 6s, top speed of 250kph ( electronically limited )
SLK320 CDI: a 3l V6, 3 turbos (two-stage turbocharging - 2 small ones and a big one) 286 Hp and 630 Nm
250kph (electronically limited ) , 0-100kph 5.3s, fuel economy 7.5l/100Km
http://www.jesdc.de/news/news/pics/cdi-genf.jpg
Ghostbat
03-02-2005, 02:55 PM
Very impressing engines, real torquemonsters..
But does dieselengines really belong in sportscars, maybe so?
I'm guessing these engines will find their way into most of Mercedes lines of cars. The V8 should be perfect for the new ML and how about a C400 CDI?
Diesel engines sucks! :x
Noisy and heavy....
This kind of engines in Sports cars? :shock: :(
This kind of engines in Sports cars? :shock: :(
Sadly, that's what the future is like...The upcoming Zonda successor is according to the latest news (directly from one of the employees) also said to be powered by a diesel powerplant - it's meant to be a huge surprise. The torque will be higher than the one of the veyron though.
But why do you want more torque? Are we going to do TT with this cars or what?
And remember diesel engines have lvery little rpms....
Ghostbat
03-02-2005, 04:39 PM
Diesel engines sucks! :x
Noisy and heavy....
This kind of engines in Sports cars? :shock: :(
I seriously recommend you to try a modern diesel car from a german manufacturer before you say they are noisy and heavy.
...oh and btw aren't sportscars supposed to be noisy :?: :|
Diesel engines sucks! :x
Noisy and heavy....
This kind of engines in Sports cars? :shock: :(
I seriously recommend you to try a modern diesel car from a german manufacturer before you say they are noisy and heavy.
...oh and btw aren't sportscars supposed to be noisy :?: :|
Serious progress over the last years has been made as far as diesels are concerned. However, they are still heavy.
And yeah supercars are meant to be noisy but they are also meant to produce something better than a diesel's rattle.
noosee
03-02-2005, 05:23 PM
I have 1.9 tdi chipped audi A4 and it pulls from 50 till 100 km/h in 4th gear with same speed as my BMW M3 :D
And torque in low revs is what u usually need in everyday driving :D
And u dont feel that it's heavy untill u go to the race track.
mindgam3
03-02-2005, 05:27 PM
But why do you want more torque? Are we going to do TT with this cars or what?
And remember diesel engines have lvery little rpms....
torque is arguarbly more important than power, torque is what makes the driveshaft rotate, not power.... power only really effects top speed
Sir_GT
03-02-2005, 05:54 PM
Man... Mercedes has really lost the plot.
They were about opulence and ostentation, the final step of the ladder before buying a Rolls-Royce...
...now they want to make an economical roadster? Why? Is their target market supposed to be concerned with petrol bills? People bought a Mercedes to SHOW they've made it, not because they were cheap, stingy, and short on cash.
Times have really changed eh? BMW = the new status symbol. Audi = the new BMW. Mercedes = the German Ford.
gobs3z
03-02-2005, 06:25 PM
Man... Mercedes has really lost the plot.
They were about opulence and ostentation, the final step of the ladder before buying a Rolls-Royce...
...now they want to make an economical roadster? Why? Is their target market supposed to be concerned with petrol bills? People bought a Mercedes to SHOW they've made it, not because they were cheap, stingy, and short on cash.
Times have really changed eh? BMW = the new status symbol. Audi = the new BMW. Mercedes = the German Ford.
I 2nd that!! Cheapest thing BMW has is the 1 series, and it still isn't cheap. I guess Maybach is what Mercedes has left. And Chrysler is what Mercedes is supposed to be selling to the common man, not Mercedes!
Diesel engines sucks! :x
Noisy and heavy....
This kind of engines in Sports cars? :shock: :(
I seriously recommend you to try a modern diesel car from a german manufacturer before you say they are noisy and heavy.
...oh and btw aren't sportscars supposed to be noisy :?: :|
Iīve already tried several.
Noisy?Yes but is the kind of noyse that feels like a symphony,not a tractor....
:wink:
But why do you want more torque? Are we going to do TT with this cars or what?
And remember diesel engines have lvery little rpms....
torque is arguarbly more important than power, torque is what makes the driveshaft rotate, not power.... power only really effects top speed
Remember,that if you have too much torque you are wasting tires for nothing.... :roll:
Ghostbat
03-02-2005, 08:31 PM
But why do you want more torque? Are we going to do TT with this cars or what?
And remember diesel engines have lvery little rpms....
torque is arguarbly more important than power, torque is what makes the driveshaft rotate, not power.... power only really effects top speed
Remember,that if you have too much torque you are wasting tires for nothing.... :roll:
Maybe that's because you drive a fwd car, they usually have more problems with massive power than proper rwd cars.. :roll: :wink:
Try a torque of 700nm at 1950rpm or 2000rpm in a RWD car and then tell me the result,ok? :wink:
acs power
03-02-2005, 08:46 PM
I'm curious 'bout the consumption.
Thatīs another issue we will have to discuss in this topic...
Diesel engines are the best in consumption when you are in urban areas with heavy traffic or cruising at average speed.
But,there are some disadvantages for diesel engines....
chest3r
03-02-2005, 08:54 PM
3 turbos ?!!?! :shock: :shock: :shock:
This is completly new to me. I know the BMW 535d but it has only 2 turbos.
I like diesel engines. In the last years they have received a lot of technologies. Of course they can't have the sound of a petrol engine but they are quite economic :P
Sir_GT
03-02-2005, 11:57 PM
3 turbos ?!!?! :shock: :shock: :shock:
This is completly new to me. I know the BMW 535d but it has only 2 turbos.
I like diesel engines. In the last years they have received a lot of technologies. Of course they can't have the sound of a petrol engine but they are quite economic :P
I don't hate diesels, but like you said, part of a petrol engine's character is the exhaust note, and part of a roadster/coupe/sports car's character is the exhaust note, or the engine, or both. Now the Merc's have lost both.
I mean... isn't a little off? A diesel SL? That's like PRETENDING to be/have bling... which is really pathetic on it's own, but to advertise the fact? Christ. Talk about being permanently stapled to the uncool wall on Top Gear... :|
loliea
03-03-2005, 12:13 AM
I really think that diesel has an edge in the futur of sports car (not super car though: when you can spend $200K on a car, you can afford a 5 m/gal engine).
What about the noise? Their is a big difference between a BMW 330D and a 330i (especially when engine is cold)
But why do you want more torque? Are we going to do TT with this cars or what?
And remember diesel engines have lvery little rpms....
torque is arguarbly more important than power, torque is what makes the driveshaft rotate, not power.... power only really effects top speed
And sports cars are not about speed?
Ghostbat
03-03-2005, 04:46 AM
But why do you want more torque? Are we going to do TT with this cars or what?
And remember diesel engines have lvery little rpms....
torque is arguarbly more important than power, torque is what makes the driveshaft rotate, not power.... power only really effects top speed
And sports cars are not about speed?
I think that what he means is that sportscars are about acceleration and handling, don't you agree RC45? The Veyron may go over 400km/h but calling a 2 ton car that can't handle a sportscar, I'm not so sure.
I'm curious 'bout the consumption.
Well 'acs power' it's 7.5l/100km for the 320CDI if you read mv:s first post in this topic.
7.5l/100 not in a sporty driving,remember this fact! :twisted:
Ghostbat
03-03-2005, 07:08 AM
7.5l/100 not in a sporty driving,remember this fact! :twisted:
Of course not but that's never the case when you measure average fuelconsumption for a car. I'm gueesing even your T5 consumes more than the specified 9.4l/100km when you push it..
Ok,but the T-5 isnīt a diesel,itīs a turbocharged petrol engine...something very diferent from a diesel one. :fadein:
If you want to make profit you have to make diesel engines and offer them in every car( from A-class to SL) Maybe it isn`t so in USA but in Europe over 50% new cars sold are diesels.
...now they want to make an economical roadster? Why? Is their target market supposed to be concerned with petrol bills? People bought a Mercedes to SHOW they've made it, not because they were cheap, stingy, and short on cash.
Rich people aren`t stupid.
Ghostbat
03-03-2005, 08:15 AM
Ok,but the T-5 isnīt a diesel,itīs a turbocharged petrol engine...something very diferent from a diesel one. :fadein:
Yes but it's still wrong to complain about the fact that a car consumes more when it's pushed hard, both petrols and diesels do that. Doesn't matter if it's a Volvo, BMW, Merc or whatever. I don't see why these new Merc diesels should be different..
cooperluke
03-03-2005, 08:27 AM
T5, you are member of the AutohojeOnline, right??
I think I've seen your avatar there.
Portugal is gaining members here in JW!
About the topic, I don't think that a diesel engine is a good option for a supercar, because the power delivery is less progressive, and the reductions are a bit violent, specially in a car with 700nm of torque. The good points, I think that are not usable in a track!
:)
mindgam3
03-03-2005, 08:33 AM
But why do you want more torque? Are we going to do TT with this cars or what?
And remember diesel engines have lvery little rpms....
torque is arguarbly more important than power, torque is what makes the driveshaft rotate, not power.... power only really effects top speed
And sports cars are not about speed?
I'm not saying sports cars are about speed, sports cars make u feel good about driving, are good to look at, sound nice and handle well.
I'd take a high revving, but comparatively low torque motor over a high torque, low rev engine anyday. ;)
Diesels do not belong in sportscars, my main reason being the sound, however taking a purely performance stance on the issue, they're becoming ok.
Eg, the BMW X5 ( i know not a sportscar) has a 3 litre diesel and a 3 litre petrol option.... both with exactly the same performance figures ;)
Ghostbat
03-03-2005, 08:36 AM
About the topic, I don't think that a diesel engine is a good option for a supercar, because the power delivery is less progressive, and the reductions are a bit violent, specially in a car with 700nm of torque. The good points, I think that are not usable in a track!
I totally agree with you, feels strange that they are gonna put diesels in the Zonda and Gallardo. But remember that these Mercs aren't trackcars so that argument won't hold.
T5, you are member of the AutohojeOnline, right??
I think I've seen your avatar there.
Portugal is gaining members here in JW!
About the topic, I don't think that a diesel engine is a good option for a supercar, because the power delivery is less progressive, and the reductions are a bit violent, specially in a car with 700nm of torque. The good points, I think that are not usable in a track!
:)
Yup! :wink:
Sir_GT
03-03-2005, 09:07 AM
If you want to make profit you have to make diesel engines and offer them in every car( from A-class to SL) Maybe it isn`t so in USA but in Europe over 50% new cars sold are diesels.
...now they want to make an economical roadster? Why? Is their target market supposed to be concerned with petrol bills? People bought a Mercedes to SHOW they've made it, not because they were cheap, stingy, and short on cash.
Rich people aren`t stupid.
Yes, which is why they buy large, fairly insconpicous, practical, four-door luxury sedans powered by diesels, and not impractical, 2-seat, ostentatious, load roadsters.
Obviosuly, you wouldn't make a very good brand manager.
"Yes sir, let's make Mercedes roadsters more desirable! Let's make 'em diesel! People luuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuvvv to hear a diesel revving at the red line, yes sir they do! Nothing shows that you've made it more than advertising to the world that YES, I CAN LOOK LIKE A RICH, OBNOXIOUS, SUCCESSFUL CUNT AND A CASH-STRAPPED, CARING, SHARING, ENVIRONMENTALIST AT THE SAME TIME with my brand new, SL400 CDI!"
:roll:
About the topic, I don't think that a diesel engine is a good option for a supercar, because the power delivery is less progressive, and the reductions are a bit violent, specially in a car with 700nm of torque. The good points, I think that are not usable in a track!
I totally agree with you, feels strange that they are gonna put diesels in the Zonda and Gallardo. But remember that these Mercs aren't trackcars so that argument won't hold.
Iīve already seen a C30 CDI AMG in Track days...
Im not saying that this is a good car on the track because of the engine,but the stiff suspension and little better dynamics from the AMG pack really helps.
Of course that if you compare it to a C32 AMG,thereīs still a big diference,because the engine is better in every perspective.
This a clear example of Petrol superiority. :D
ENVIRONMENTALIST AT THE SAME TIME with my brand new, SL400 CDI!"
:roll:
With a diesel engine? :lol: [/b]
Ghostbat
03-03-2005, 09:12 AM
About the topic, I don't think that a diesel engine is a good option for a supercar, because the power delivery is less progressive, and the reductions are a bit violent, specially in a car with 700nm of torque. The good points, I think that are not usable in a track!
I totally agree with you, feels strange that they are gonna put diesels in the Zonda and Gallardo. But remember that these Mercs aren't trackcars so that argument won't hold.
Iīve already seen a C30 CDI AMG in Track days...
Im not saying that this is a good car on the track because of the engine,but the stiff suspension and little better dynamics from the AMG pack really helps.
Of course that if you compare it to a C32 AMG,thereīs still a big deference,because the engine is better in every perspective.
This a clear example of Petrol superiority. :D
So what you are saying is that the same car with 354bhp is a better trackcar than the one with 231bhp? Man you must be a genius or something :wink: 8)
What I was saying is that a 3000 cc turbined Diesel is inferior compared with 3200cc supercharged petrol engine,same maker,same platform.Do you now understand what i was trying to say? :wink:
Itīs not about power but about about specific output,engine efficiency!
Ghostbat
03-03-2005, 09:32 AM
What I was saying is that a 3000 cc turbined Diesel is inferior compared with 3200cc supercharged petrol engine,same maker,same platform.Do you now understand what i was trying to say? :wink:
Itīs not about power but about about specific output,engine efficiency!
That's natural since diesel has a lower level of energy/litre compared to petrol. But the new 320 CDI is getting closer am i right?
Oh and btw the 30 CDI engine isnt 3000cc it's 2950cc :wink: :D
:lol:
Lets put one thing clear, do you think that a diesel engine can reach a level of energy/litre equal to a petrol one?Same cc,same aspiration,etc...? :roll:
is64fun
03-03-2005, 09:44 AM
from inside not noisy. and mercdedes engines are realyy comfortable. even the diesel ones
TransAm
03-03-2005, 10:17 AM
For a daily driver I'd choose a high-torque, like a saab with 250lbft. :wink:
Ghostbat
03-03-2005, 10:54 AM
:lol:
Lets put one thing clear, do you think that a diesel engine can reach a level of energy/litre equal to a petrol one?Same cc,same aspiration,etc...? :roll:
What I'm sayig is that diesel as a FUEL has less energy per volume than petrol hence that it's pretty much impossible to reach the same output with the same variables to start with. But hey who knew a couple of years ago that todays diesels were going to be this powerful.
Wutputt
03-03-2005, 03:45 PM
What I'm sayig is that diesel as a FUEL has less energy per volume than petrol hence that it's pretty much impossible to reach the same output with the same variables to start with. But hey who knew a couple of years ago that todays diesels were going to be this powerful.
Actually it's the other way around ;)
One litre of diesel contains theoretically more energy as one litre of petrol. Diesel fuel has about 9.9 kWh/litre and Petrol fuel has about 9.1 kWh/litre. The reason is diesel has a higher density than petrol. If you would compare the theoretical amount of energy per mass, petrol would have a slight advantage cause the heating value for petrol is a bit higher than the one for diesel.
The diesel - petrol discussion is as old as the streets in recent years. But I would agree a petrol engine is more suited for a sportscar. Diesels are more efficient and thus use less fuel. They also have extremely high torque figures. A petrol engine on the other hand is less efficient and thus eats more fuel. A petrol engine may also not have as much torque but it's spread over a wider rev range, something that is interesting for a sport scar. A petrol engine is also more environmental friendly if you take everything into account, not only CO2 emissions.
I would conclude diesel engines are more suited for every day cars, and petrol engines are more suited for sport cars and fun cars.
Ghostbat
03-03-2005, 04:23 PM
What I'm sayig is that diesel as a FUEL has less energy per volume than petrol hence that it's pretty much impossible to reach the same output with the same variables to start with. But hey who knew a couple of years ago that todays diesels were going to be this powerful.
Actually it's the other way around ;)
One litre of diesel contains theoretically more energy as one litre of petrol. Diesel fuel has about 9.9 kWh/litre and Petrol fuel has about 9.1 kWh/litre. The reason is diesel has a higher density than petrol. If you would compare the theoretical amount of energy per mass, petrol would have a slight advantage cause the heating value for petrol is a bit higher than the one for diesel.
The diesel - petrol discussion is as old as the streets in recent years. But I would agree a petrol engine is more suited for a sportscar. Diesels are more efficient and thus use less fuel. They also have extremely high torque figures. A petrol engine on the other hand is less efficient and thus eats more fuel. A petrol engine may also not have as much torque but it's spread over a wider rev range, something that is interesting for a sport scar. A petrol engine is also more environmental friendly if you take everything into account, not only CO2 emissions.
I would conclude diesel engines are more suited for every day cars, and petrol engines are more suited for sport cars and fun cars.
Thanks for this educational knowledge.. :)
Sir_GT
03-03-2005, 07:59 PM
ENVIRONMENTALIST AT THE SAME TIME with my brand new, SL400 CDI!"
:roll:
With a diesel engine? :lol:
Apparently, that is the popular perception. Especially in Europe, where the diesel fuel available is strictly regulated to meet a very high particle and emission standard.
But itīs a wrong perception, and if you read something about the issue you will imidiately understand why....
There are other toxic particles that arenīt CO2 and there isnīt technology available yet to clean them from the emissions of the diesel engines.
Sir_GT
03-03-2005, 11:59 PM
But itīs a wrong perception, and if you read something about the issue you will imidiately understand why....
There are other toxic particles that arenīt CO2 and there isnīt technology available yet to clean them from the emissions of the diesel engines.
What kind of diesel fuel do they sell in Portugal mate? The regulations here are some of the strictest in the world. Not only does the diesel fuel itself need to meet a very high standard, the cars themselves are fitted with filters used to extract the remaining particles.
Also, when compared to catalytic converters used on standard petrols, the diesels do make more environmental sense. It will take 5-10 miles before a standard CC can fully "warm up" and do its job, whereas the diesel filters are ready from the start. Add the fact that the average traveling distance in the UK and Europe is 5 miles, it simply shows that on average, using a petrol car does cause more polution than a diesel one, especially when used regularly for short trips.
...it really does scream environmentalist y'know. ;)
HeilSvenska
03-04-2005, 12:42 AM
But itīs a wrong perception, and if you read something about the issue you will imidiately understand why....
There are other toxic particles that arenīt CO2 and there isnīt technology available yet to clean them from the emissions of the diesel engines.
What kind of diesel fuel do they sell in Portugal mate? The regulations here are some of the strictest in the world. Not only does the diesel fuel itself need to meet a very high standard, the cars themselves are fitted with filters used to extract the remaining particles.
Also, when compared to catalytic converters used on standard petrols, the diesels do make more environmental sense. It will take 5-10 miles before a standard CC can fully "warm up" and do its job, whereas the diesel filters are ready from the start. Add the fact that the average traveling distance in the UK and Europe is 5 miles, it simply shows that on average, using a petrol car does cause more polution than a diesel one, especially when used regularly for short trips.
...it really does scream environmentalist y'know. ;)
Well, we're in the 21th Century now, so only the cars with Hydrogen fuel can have a sticker that says ENVIRONMENTALIST on it. Diesel is sooooooo passé.
by the way...Go Petrol!
findleybeast
03-04-2005, 02:35 AM
thank you Wutputt for getting that diesel power issue straight before I got to it :D saved me a lot of words
the problem with diesel engines isn't the fuel, just how they combust. since they basically run by detonation, it limits the max rpms of the engine. If someone was to somehow design a high revving sports diesel with the same combustion precision of modern gasoline engines, it would decimate the competition.
as for putting a diesel in a sportscar, like an sl, imo that's pretty stupid. diesel is kind of the anti-sport in terms of image, and that's what those cars are all about
might sell well in UK tho
But itīs a wrong perception, and if you read something about the issue you will imidiately understand why....
There are other toxic particles that arenīt CO2 and there isnīt technology available yet to clean them from the emissions of the diesel engines.
What kind of diesel fuel do they sell in Portugal mate? The regulations here are some of the strictest in the world. Not only does the diesel fuel itself need to meet a very high standard, the cars themselves are fitted with filters used to extract the remaining particles.
Also, when compared to catalytic converters used on standard petrols, the diesels do make more environmental sense. It will take 5-10 miles before a standard CC can fully "warm up" and do its job, whereas the diesel filters are ready from the start. Add the fact that the average traveling distance in the UK and Europe is 5 miles, it simply shows that on average, using a petrol car does cause more polution than a diesel one, especially when used regularly for short trips.
...it really does scream environmentalist y'know. ;)ī
The particle filters donīt extract all particles. :wink:
Please read something about the issue...
And by the way diesel in Portugal is the same as the diesel used in UK.
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