View Full Version : why dont american cars compete with european cars
Jabba
08-30-2003, 12:32 PM
I myself am an american who prefers european sports cars, sedans, and other vehicles. The only vehichle that im sure i would buy thats american would be an suv but i hate those. Maybe build quality and performance has to do with better euro cars but why is there an understanding that americans cant make good cars.
initiala4
08-30-2003, 12:55 PM
Some people are brand oriented....some people have tried and used american cars but someone dislike it..maybe the driving feeling? Gas millage? Plus in europe the market is way different than the american market..gas in europe is expensive than america..
Better build quality and better handling in European cars is a matter of fact IMO... no idea why the quality, but the handling is sure given by the fact we have here in Europe more A and B roads than highway..
Yea.. agree with u TT..
European cars are so quality IMO..
AlienDB7
08-30-2003, 04:38 PM
and you wouldn't get a truck based engine in an european car like you would in an american one :)
Okay, diesel engine is an exception but let's not consider that for now.
Cadillac is about to put out a 400hp car with the Z06 motor, that should be nice, and Ford has Jag. As for american cars not handling, they would if half of america wasnt stupid. Everyone wants bigger cars.... Still some handle good, Vette, Focus, Viper, GT-40, Cobra R, etc.... Im just waiting for everyone to get over this STUPID SUV craze so automakers can focus on sedans, sport cars, and sensible things.
As for truck engines in cars... where? These days they are more likely to put a car engine in a truck.
alondahan
08-30-2003, 06:42 PM
As for truck engines in cars... where? These days they are more likely to put a car engine in a truck.
How about in the viper :?:
Cadillac is about to put out a 400hp car with the Z06 motor, that should be nice, and Ford has Jag. As for american cars not handling, they would if half of america wasnt stupid. Everyone wants bigger cars.... Still some handle good, Vette, Focus, Viper, GT-40, Cobra R, etc.... Im just waiting for everyone to get over this STUPID SUV craze so automakers can focus on sedans, sport cars, and sensible things.
As for truck engines in cars... where? These days they are more likely to put a car engine in a truck.
Well, as for the Focus.. it's a car for the European marked basically... and Vette, Viper and Cobra R won't stand a chance compared to good handling european cars... an Elise 111S handles better than a Cobra IMO.. with 1/4 of the hp...
Now american cars are changing luckily...
dis3as3d
08-30-2003, 07:06 PM
I think that it is a difference in cultures. In here in the states the consumers are not as willing to buy cutting edge high performance edge sports cars that are built localy. The people that do buy these cars (in general) buy them as either a collector piece or for just general braging rights.
Instead the american consumers attitude seems to lean towards, "if you want something done right you have to do it yourself", and people rather buy a very good building block sports car. Every american sports car here has a huge aftermarket following.
And as far as America having no sports cars they have a few, ford is making a new GT40, chevy has the corvette z06, dodge has the viper.
...
And as far as America having no sports cars they have a few, ford is making a new GT40, chevy has the corvette z06, dodge has the viper.
Sure, those are sports cars, but basically they are american sports cars..
And as you said, it's obvious that European and American cultures are different... we are closer to Japan in car culture IMO.. for us a sport cars does not need a "big block"...
I'm not saying Elises, MR2, Speedster and such are better than Vipers... they're different.. :)
AlienDB7
08-30-2003, 08:39 PM
It really depends on what's your definition of handling is. The newer american sports cars don't really handle that bad if all you read is the skidpad number.
For performance to price ratio, you can't beat the americans and the japs. But for most of us here, we probably want something better with more class.
If you really want performance, you may as well get a stripped down toyota echo and put couple of big turbos in. 800kg with 300hp will probably make you the fastest guy on the block... and it costs much less than a typical sports car :lol:
Good points Alien :)
Defining handling is hard... and as always, you also have to throw in the fact that ppl have differents points of view :)
A good handling car IMO is a car that can make you smile even after years you've driven it, a car that behave in an honest way, never acting strange and always telling you what it's going to happen the next second. A car with progressive reactions, that can be fast on twisty roads w/o beeing crazily dangerous. A car that trasmit to you through the seat and the wheel as much info as possible.. and much more...
But the price to quality ratio in effect is a good point.. we were talking about better build quality in European cars.. but well, Euro cars costs also more compared to equivalent in US... so it would be hard to really judge that point...
stracing
08-30-2003, 09:52 PM
americans prefer 400m runs rather than zooming thru the 'ring right?
so maybe thats why they don't care if it handles.
but even so american car companies should up the ante on build quality. even holden or ford are doing better than a 100k AUD viper or a 120k AUD vette
also american cars companies cannot compete unless they sell their shit elsewhere. if they do compete, it will only be local and they won't reap in any profits. BMW, merc, porsche, ferrari etc sell everywhere
AlienDB7
08-30-2003, 10:03 PM
A good handling car IMO is a car that can make you smile even after years you've driven it, a car that behave in an honest way, never acting strange and always telling you what it's going to happen the next second. A car with progressive reactions, that can be fast on twisty roads w/o beeing crazily dangerous. A car that trasmit to you through the seat and the wheel as much info as possible.. and much more...
That's one reason why I don't like jap sedans built in america. They have virtually no feedback at all. Brake feels like an on/off switch and the steering is too light and slow. Not saying all of them are like that, but after some bad experience test driving some hondas, I actually got an american car instead! You may laugh, but that's actually what happened. The interesting thing was, I noticed a loose seat and some rattling sound when I drove the accord and they recalled the broken seat bracket 2 years later! Passat, on the other hand, is a much better in comparison, even though it's not known for its performance. Too bad it costs twice as much.
As for the price/performance issue, my car costs about same as a VW jetta (bora for the euros) and it's a midsize car with 170hp/200lb-ft. Handling sure isn't as good as the european cars but it's pretty good in terms of feedback (way too much at times). I can almost feel the prints on manhole covers when I driver over them through the wheel and pedal.
The ironic thing is, GM is going to discontinue the brand and model of my car. So we're back to the cultural aspect of this argument; the american public simply don't care about look and handling. Look at the best selling sedans in america: camry, accord and taurus. They're all boring semi-ugly cars with virtually no driving feedback.
My definition of handling is sort of similar to yours, except for one extra condition... it performs well at any speed. Consider most of us probably do lots of city driving, I think a good handling car should put a smile on your face even when it's being driven in the parking lot or in a traffic jam. That's the main reason why I threw honda (VTEC to be specific) out of my "handling" list cause the lack of torque makes city driving a boring experience. Just my personal opinion... I know I'm biased :)
666fast
08-31-2003, 01:19 AM
also american cars companies cannot compete unless they sell their shit elsewhere. if they do compete, it will only be local and they won't reap in any profits. BMW, merc, porsche, ferrari etc sell everywhere
Thats not entirely true, both Ford and GM own a shitpile of different car companies all over the world.
AlienDB7
08-31-2003, 01:41 AM
also american cars companies cannot compete unless they sell their shit elsewhere. if they do compete, it will only be local and they won't reap in any profits. BMW, merc, porsche, ferrari etc sell everywhere
Thats not entirely true, both Ford and GM own a shitpile of different car companies all over the world.
But both ford and GM are losing money in europe and asia. Never know what'll happen in the future... opel and vauxhall may have problem making money, but saab seems to be doing pretty good. With the WRX repackaged as the 9-2, it may actually sell. Certainly it doesn't have subaru's history of rallying but it does have a slightly more conservative classy look for those who don't like to be associated with the ricers. Personally, the 9-2 is on my list for cars to look out for. Daewoo in asia isn't doing that well either. The only company overseas making money for GM is probably subaru.
Ford on the other hand seems to be doing a little bit better. Aston and Jaguar seem to be pushing out better products. Mazda, with ford's help, is making a come back with better handling cars and improved styling. I heard mazda's president is not head for Ford's europe unit. So, things should be getting better soon... hopefully.
666fast
08-31-2003, 02:46 AM
Well, GM is doing horrible overall. They are on the brink of banruptcy. They were a tad generous with pension plans and are paying out the ass because of it.
666fast
08-31-2003, 02:46 AM
edit- double post, not sure how I pulled that off. I must be super awesome or something.
DR.GONZO
08-31-2003, 03:01 AM
I have been always wanting to see it, seems kinda racist too me(you know what I mean Sucks!) , I know many american cars can beat other Imports (imports too me if you live else where) In all there best motoring all the top import rides but they put in a c5 awww ok why not the zo6???? BS in my opinion.
stracing
08-31-2003, 03:03 AM
666fast: what i am saying is if they improve chevrolet, pontiac etc, it will still be local. so all i'm talking are gm brands that are sold only in the us. so improving just those brands, they must sell elsewhere in the world but they don't.
gm does own a shitpile of other cars but they really can't help each other can they? every gm manufacturer has their own ideas. other gm brands like holden operate on themselves with a little input from gm hq. bob lutz was always looking at holden to improve cars back in the us. but i guess its not loking good with the pontiac gto.
gm will survive tho, its a huge operation. holden sells quite a few cars a year (200,000 i think) and they only make up 5% profit of the whole gm corporation.
666fast
08-31-2003, 03:22 AM
stracing, I see what you are saying. i must have misread it before I guess. And I think you are right.
I'm sure the different brands can help each other. If Pontiac makes a bazillion dollars, I highly doubt that they would put all that money straight back into Pontiac. I'm sure they would increase the budgets of the other makes as well.
Don't get me started on the GTO. So much was promised and very little was delivered. :roll:
I'm certain that Holdens would sell extremely well here with a Chevy badge on it. The majority of this country doesn't know what a Holden is, so they would think it's pretty much a new car.
Will GM survive? Probably, they are a huge company. But that doesn't change the fact that they are doing horrible. This wonderfull economy we have right now definately isn't helping.
fedezyl
08-31-2003, 03:25 AM
heheh, economy, want to see an economy going to hell?? look at south america and that's a baaad economy, even if the U.S. is having a "bad" economy period...it stills seems like paradise for me, truth is that in the U.S. anyone who want's to make money will make it...
666fast
08-31-2003, 03:32 AM
heheh, economy, want to see an economy going to hell?? look at south america and that's a baaad economy, even if the U.S. is having a "bad" economy period...it stills seems like paradise for me, truth is that in the U.S. anyone who want's to make money will make it...
Even if our economy is a thousand times better that South Americas, GM and many other companies are still losing millions upon millions of dollars because of our economy. Which is not a good thing.
fedezyl
08-31-2003, 03:35 AM
Yes....but let me put it this way, if they got their act together they would be out of their crisis in little time...as far as I know people still buy Yukons and Cavaliers....I think it's more a management issue than the economy being in bad shape..
666fast
08-31-2003, 03:46 AM
Yes....but let me put it this way, if they got their act together they would be out of their crisis in little time...as far as I know people still buy Yukons and Cavaliers....I think it's more a management issue than the economy being in bad shape..
It's mostly because of that little Twin Towers fiasco and the fact that it's costing $4 billion a day to keep and support our troops in Iraq.
Unemployment is the highest it's been in 15 years, 80% of people that are unemplyed and collecting benefits have already used all they can get and still don't have a job. This entire country isn't rich like many seem to think. The average income is probably about $40k a year. Factor in the usual bills, they end up with very little actual "extra money". When people are broke, they don't spend money.
It will take more than a little bit of time to get out of this crisis. Recouping hundreds of billions of dollar is not something that can be cleared up in a year. Too bad the United States government won't ask for the billions of dollars given to other countries back. That would be a start, but then we would be the bad guys.
fedezyl
08-31-2003, 04:04 AM
All the billions given away by the U.S. aren't for charity, all that money is for something in exchange, opening a market for U.S. products, lower taxes for impoted U.S. product's to give you a few examples, and this doesn't only happen with the U.S. , it also happen's with Europe and other countries, beleive me, i've experienced this first hand, economies go up and down, it's been the trend in history as far as I know, before risking this getting into a political argument and as an outside and as objective opinion as I can, if the U.S. governement wouldn't have focused so much in the war against Iraq instead of taking actions to recover the economy, thing's wouldn't be so bad right now....it seems like only now they've realised they have to do something about the economy, well, not that trading Iraqui oil in dollars instead of Euros isn't a good move, specially with the Euro being stronger than the U.S. dollar right now...
Before anyone flames me about me thinking the Iraqui war is because of freedom for the Iraquis let me say this...
No war has ever been for other interest than political or econmic reasons, none, from the crusades, to the gulf war in 1991, any war, so please, don't even try to convince me that this a war for freedom because I won't even spend my energy on arguing about it...
So, coming back to our little discussion, the war surely achieved it's outcome of making a U.S. economy recovery easier, at what price? a global distrust to U.S. politics and respect for international laws...how this will play in the global politics future? probably not to good for the U.S. but hey i'm not a politician....
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