Car & Driver: Ferrari 430

[Vansquish]

Use the delete button next time eh?

[mclaren_Gt]

ooooo great, beauty car

this is one of my favorite ferraris
0-60mph only 3.5 seconds its amazing

what is the top sepeed and the price??

thanks for the scans

[mclaren_Gt]

oo sorry
i see
$190,500 dollars
and 186mph, is the top speed

i prefer this than gallardo

[dingo]

Originally Posted by SilviaEvo to Ice and AllanLambo me and the rest of the JW community would like to ask for pics and a custom pic to back it up!

I believe AllanLambo's Diablo can be seen on Racing Flix, not sure about the Ferrari. As for Ice, some pics would be nice to see.
I don't think I'll enter this argument since no one is going to back down anyway, and none of us really know the truth (until we do a comparison with the cars side by side).

[Guibo]

If you guys step outside of this forum (and venture into the Ferrari/Viper/Lambo owners' forums), you'll know allanlambo isn't your typical BS artist. I think apologies will be in order in short time.

Let's take a look at some figures:

From Sport Auto*
0-100 kmh / 0-160 / 0-200
360CS (3.3 kg/PS): 4.4 / 9.7 / 15.5
Gallardo (3.2 kg/PS): 4.0 / 8.4 / 13.0
Murcielago (3.4 kg/PS): 3.9 / 8.9 / 12.8

From Autocar
0-60 / 0-100 / 0-150
360 CS (360 hp/tonne): 4.4 / 9.7 / 23.5
Gallardo (324 hp/tonne): 4.1 / 9.0 / 21.3
Murcielago (314 hp/tonne): 4.0 / 9.0 / na

From C&D*
360 CS (297 hp/tonne): 4.0 / 9.5 / 23.9
F50 (367 hp/tonne): 3.8 / 8.5 / 18.3
Gallardo (305 hp/tonne): 4.1 / 9.2 / 21.4
Murcielago (310 hp/tonne): 3.8 / 9.5 / 21.4

*figures for curb weights verified by scale
And now we have the F430 (333 hp/tonne, going by Ferrari's wt claim**) recording a noticeably quicker 0-60, and then on top of that undercutting the F50 to 100 by 6/10ths of a second? Going by Ferrari's own statements, the F430 is heavier than the standard 360, which itself is already heavier than the CS. This is reflected in the differences in official power/wt ratios: 360 hp/tonne for the CS, 333 hp/tonne for the F430. Meaning in actuality, the F430 will have a lower real-world power/wt ratio than the 360CS, and thus lower than the Gallardo.
Seeing how the CS is slower than the Murcielago to 150 by 2.5 seconds, I find it hard to believe the F430 "has the Lambo by 3 seconds." Unless this is another of those very "special" Ferraris...

**As has been shown in numerous tests in the past where Ferraris have been put on the scale, Ferrari's curb weights are notoriously optimistic.

Regarding lap times, the case can be made that the Gallardo is better suited to the Nurburgring, as it received considerable development time there. To my knowledge, Lamborghini doesn't test at Hockenheim (most companies rarely do), so that can be considered a level playing field for both cars. It's already ahead of the 360CS by a comfortable enough margin there. What would happen if it had the CS's P Zero Corsa's? (And the Ford GT, for that matter.)

[LotusGT1]

Originally Posted by Guibo Regarding lap times, the case can be made that the Gallardo is better suited to the Nurburgring, as it received considerable development time there.

I wonder how you can get a setup more suited for the Nordschleife, when we're talking about a 22 km track with 150+ corners ?

[FordGTGuy]

ice- Not sure where you're getting your performance numbers, but the 7.9second 0-100mph time is something that the Jaguar XJ220 pulled off, the Ford does it in around 8.8

8.8 was the est. thw was back when they said the car had 500 hp

ford gt with less heritage than the f430 what kind of bullshit is that? the engine has no character whenever you read a magazine or video they won't stop talking about the cars character. Lastley have you ever seen jeremy clarckson when he got his hands on the Ford GT he talked about how much soul the car had for 5 minutes!

[ice]

allanlambo,

IM glad you have a passion for Itlian cars, but do not think that having owned botha lambo and a ferrari makes you any less likely to be bias.

First, Lambo didnt have a competitor to the 360 till last year, so in fact they ddint outrun it. And the fact is that the countache was never the same type of car as the Ferrari's it ran against. It got attention for its looks and power, but it handled liek a boat, and although the TR isnt much better, it did handle better, if by a small bit.

Since then the diablo was their only car. The 550 was not its competitor, it was a GT car and only that. Teh diablo was far more comparable to an F50, which even if the braking and acceleration numbers r close, was a far faster car on a track.
And wasnt it the Diablo that had water leaks when it rained? I have a few family firend who opened up his door after it rained and had water come out, and i know that you know he wasnt the only one.

Again, the downhill point has no merit, becuase times on the slope have been beaten by independant testers.

The Gallardo is STILL beaten by the 360. The Gallardo, as Tiff put it, is not the drivers car the 360 is. Although a great car, it doesnt have the dynamics a small supercar should have. Sure, its faster, but its newer and has 100 plus hp on it. The CS effectively nulified this peformance deficit. And those numbers posted above? What about R&T's numbers? And the other magazines? Some of those CS numbers are not any faster then proven base 360 numbers. A 4.4 to 100? Cmon. An 8.4 for the Gallrdo to 100 mph? Sure, on what planet. I havent seen one other test below 9 seconds. The Gallardo is not the same type of car, and on a loong, flowing track that depends on straight acceleration and long swooping corners, or on a track where the AWD forgiveness will allow u to make less mistakes(ie; the nurburgring), the GAllardo will be faster. But when you look at just about any other publication, including all the Brits, the CS is just in a different league then the GAllardo. Its not as comfortable, but its lighter, and its more hardcore, less forgiving but infinately more exciting. Its a race car, the Gallrdo a fast roadcar more long the likes of a 911 turbo. FAst, powerful, but not as exciting, not as fun. The perfect article to exemplfy this is in EVO when they pit the GT3 RS vs the CS. He states exactly why the Gallrdo isnt in the test, and hes absolutely right.

And against the 430, the Gallardo is staright beaten. Every mag thats compared them so far gives the 430 the nod, despite only have driven it for less the one day. They didint even need to see the number if it is faster, or even if it was faster on a track.

So does the 6 year old base 360 pose a staright line threat to the Gallrdo? No, you are right. But as a package it is the better sports car, from its looks to its sound to its handling. I mean, the sales speak for themeselves. My dad couldnt pay his way into getting a new 360 earlier, but the lambo dealer told us we could have a Gallardo in a week. And what journal has actually said theyd have the Gallardo over the 360? It does things faster, yes, but not better.

[allanlambo]

Ice, i think the problem with you, is that you read too much. And need to make up your own mind.

Also Aarhead, do not take Top Gears test on the Countach to heart. I know people who have had theirs for 20 years and wouldnt sell them for the world. They are great cars. It is true you dont want to be stuck in one in bumper to bumper traffic, but then again, you dont want to be stuck in any supercar, in bumper to bumper.

The Countach was not the same car as a TR? It is exactly the same sort of car. The TR does not handle any better than a Countach, nor does it accelerate faster, or brake better. Do you know who Derek Bell is? Do you remember the Supercar compro he did a few years back with Evo? It included the Countach, F40, Mclaren etc? He said the only car that actually shocked him, was the Countach, as to how good it really was. Virtually ever road test of a Countach vs TR, put the Countach ahead.

Anyway, you keep saying so and so said this, and so and so said that, so that makes it the better car. Will let me ask you, if Tiff tells you that Vanilla Ice cream is the best, will you also agree?

The Gallardo is miles better than a standard 360. They are not even close. The 360Cs is closer, but everyone will tell you, that the 360 is TOO track oriented, and the Gallardo will still win, it wins on Hockenheim, it wins on the Ring, it wins in acceleration. I have driven both cars extensively, the Gallardo is more satisfying to drive.

Lastly, saying that the downhill slope has no merit, really takes away any credibility you may have built, because that is idiotic. Using your logic, you must believe the car would be just as fast going uphill as down.

And btw, my uncle walked into a Ferrari dealer, and bought an 04 360 Spider, red/black 6 speed, brand new, no waiting.

And pulling that baloney about the Diablo, thats laughable. Visit my site, and ask anyone who owns a Diablo, if that is the case. I have had 2.

Now let me tell you about what youll see on the Fcars, interiors fall appart, leather shrinks, the black coating they use on the air vents, center console turns to mush, the cars are very finicky, my cars check engine lights always come on, my buddies 360 Cs, has been waiting for a switch for 2 months, and has temp sensors, and warning lights go on and off, F1 tranny failures are common place, my 355's temp climbs dramaticly in traffic. Ferraris paintwork is very shoddy, when they showed the 612 at an early show, the magaiznes all noted that. 612 Btw, what a horrible car. New Imola, pathetic also.

[JoeHahn]

I think two points to make are:

1) Allan Lambo has owned both the likes of Lamborghini and Ferrari and he shows favour to Lamborghini simply because in his experience Ferrari hasnt lived up to its name.

2) When the Gallardo was released it was quite some time after the 360 Modena. Obviously you cant directly compare them because of the age difference. But the Gallardo did make mince meat of the 360 Modena when it was released, the thing that is odd though is that the F430 doesnt do the same to the Gallardo. Yes the 430 does beat the Gallardo, but not by the amount the Gallardo did to the 360. This taken into consideration, all Lamborghini really needs to do is add a 'Sport' pack with Carbon Ceramic brakes, 550bhp and maybe the addition of Carbon panels and then the Gallardo has restored its former Ferrari beating athleticism.

[allanlambo]

Oh and Ice, thought you might like this, it is posted here, under the Lambo topic section also, but i found it interesting, since of course everyone likes the Ferrari best.


Further Award Wins for Lamborghini in Germany - Double Win for Gallardo at the Essen Motor Show.
_______________

Automobili Lamborghini was presented with two important awards at the Essen Motor Show in Germany, both for its 10-cylinder 500 PS Gallardo sportscar.

Readers of the German magazine „sport auto“ voted the Lamborghini Gallardo as the „Sportiest Coupé over €90,000“ as part of the magazine’s „Sportiest Cars of 2004“ awards.

The Gallardo was voted into the top spot ahead of strong competition from the Aston Martin DB9, the Ferrari Challenge Stradale and 612 Scaglietti, and the Porsche 911 GT2. The „sport auto“ award was presented to Luc Donckerwolke, head of Lamborghini Design.

The Essen Motor Show also marked the occasion at which representatives from the German magazine „Auto Bild Test & Tuning“ presented Lamborghini with its award for the Gallardo. The magazine named the Gallardo as „Supercar of the Month“ for the month of April 2004.

These are not the first awards that Lamborghini has won in Germany. Earlier this year, the Murciélago was voted „Imported Super Sports Car“ by the readers of „Auto Zeitung“ magazine in the „Auto Trophy 2004“.

The Lamborghini Gallardo has won awards throughout the world this year. It was named as „Performance Car of the Year 2004“ by „Motor“ magazine in Australia, it received a British „Design and Art Direction“ (D&AD) award for product design, and in Canada it won a "Golden Key Award" (Clé d'or) from the editors of the reference book "L'Annuel de l'automobile 2005".

[twboy1999]

360cs will beat gallardo and murcilago on track

straight line speed.. gallardo and cs should be around the same performance
murci will beat 360 cs in a straight line for sure

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by LotusGT1 Originally Posted by Guibo Regarding lap times, the case can be made that the Gallardo is better suited to the Nurburgring, as it received considerable development time there. I wonder how you can get a setup more suited for the Nordschleife, when we're talking about a 22 km track with 150+ corners ?

The Nordschleife has a lot of elevation changes, drastic drops, off-camber turns, etc. Not to mention it's very rough in some sections, a situation compounded by portions of pavement interrupted by hard concrete (as in the Karoussel, I think?). Here, a heavier car may need more compliance and more suspension travel to do well. Witness von Saurma complaining about the SRT-10's skittishness and actually going airborne in the bumpy sections. That car does relatively poorly at the 'Ring, 3 seconds slower than old GTS. But at the smoother Hockenheim circuit, it's a full second ahead of the old car. On a flatter, shorter track with billiard-smooth surfaces, a car with limited suspension travel and rock-hard settings might get away with a stellar lap time.

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by ice What about R&T's numbers? And the other magazines? Some of those CS numbers are not any faster then proven base 360 numbers.

Instead of casting doubt on these numbers which illustrate a very clear trend, why don't you submit numbers that would suggest otherwise? Here's a wonderful idea: how about showing us what R&T got for the Challenge Stradale? I'd love to see that.
These figures aren't faster than proven base 360 numbers? What are you talking about? C&D's 360 Modenas are some 3-4 seconds slower in getting to 150. Sport Auto's standard 360 was 3/10ths slower than that CS to 100 kmh and 8/10ths slower to 160.

[allanlambo]

Originally Posted by twboy1999 360cs will beat gallardo and murcilago on track straight line speed.. gallardo and cs should be around the same performance murci will beat 360 cs in a straight line for sure

I dont think so.

http://www.track-challenge.com/compa...ar1=70&Car2=68

http://www.track-challenge.com/compa...ar1=70&Car2=51