Killed Enzo # 4 (totalled- driver with serious injuries)

[RC45]

Originally Posted by bmagni Theres a difference between uneven roads, and a bump that makes you loose control...

What I was refering to was uneven roads.. not huge bumps like speed bumps - most people would be aware of such obstructions, and they would pose a danger to all road users and other cars would be upset by similar obstructions.

For sure the bump on PCH stefen the crook hit has been driven over by others at high speeds.

But taken at speed, in a car setup a little too stiff for those situations may result in what we see even on simply road surface undulations.

[bmagni]

Originally Posted by RC45 Originally Posted by bmagni Theres a difference between uneven roads, and a bump that makes you loose control... What I was refering to was uneven roads.. not huge bumps like speed bumps - most people would be aware of such obstructions, and they would pose a danger to all road users and other cars would be upset by similar obstructions. For sure the bump on PCH stefen the crook hit has been driven over by others at high speeds. But taken at speed, in a car setup a little too stiff for those situations may result in what we see even on simply road surface undulations.

thats what I'm saying, just that these small ondulations make your car loose control at super high speeds not matter what car it is. I guess you've never been in such situation but these things are awful and we're talking about speeds above 160 mph.

[nthfinity]

Originally Posted by RC45 Originally Posted by bmagni Theres a difference between uneven roads, and a bump that makes you loose control... What I was refering to was uneven roads.. not huge bumps like speed bumps - most people would be aware of such obstructions, and they would pose a danger to all road users and other cars would be upset by similar obstructions. For sure the bump on PCH stefen the crook hit has been driven over by others at high speeds. But taken at speed, in a car setup a little too stiff for those situations may result in what we see even on simply road surface undulations.

there are stories of the Vector W2, and later W8 running down PHC with Ferrari's and Countach's... with the Vector running 200+...

and some of you know my 147 mph experience in a W8 pulling negative G over a crest in the road...

[RC45]

Originally Posted by bmagni thats what I'm saying, just that these small ondulations make your car loose control at super high speeds not matter what car it is.

Huh?

Originally Posted by bmagni I guess you've never been in such situation but these things are awful and we're talking about speeds above 160 mph.

Uhm - I have and do drive at higher speeds on b-roads... so every much do know about such situations.

I guess from your rantings you do this every weekend then?

Unless you are speaking from personal experience why is it that your comments are any more valid than mine?

Again - for the non-english speakers - what I am saying is that a super stiff suspension that is ieadlly suited for F1 style race tracks sometimes get upset by b-roads and freeways - whil slightly softwre suspensiotns tuned for the road (such as Porsche, Viper and Z06) do NOT suffer as much.

Please let me know ho wyour 170mph run this evening oes.

[nthfinity]

copied from fchat

I was just pulling up to the closed road portion when the accident occurred. It seems like everything has been covered here...but the overall joy of the event hasn't been noted yet. We all had a great time for a great cause. The roads were incredible as was the scenery. We had participants from all over the country and some amazing cars...F50, Enzo, 427, 289, carrera GT, stradale, GT3s, lister Jag, original GT40, and many others. Everyone was pleasure to be around...the Losee's in particular. Our cars were lined up among some others on the side of the road in the above pic...we were all milling around the crash site once the helicopter left with him. It was sobering and shocking, but our spirits were buoyed by the fact that Richard was OK. To see the engine on one side, the transmission and body on the other and the wreckage strewn over a few hundred yards was unbelievable. I picked up the piece of body just aft of the driver's door where the shield was and the vin plate was still attached. I'm going to bring it to him when he's feeling better. He was glad to know i had it..it ought to look good on his garage wall. We also found his sunglasses...a nice memento. I've been told that an Enzo burned up in Dallas and ferrari built him another one with the same VIN #...i bet they'll do the same for Richard...that would be cool. anyway...I hope they have the event next year. The closed road portion may not be possible...but they still would have plenty of opportunities to give us tickets...in fact, we all offered to donate the cost of a 200mph ticket anyway. the fund that we were raising money for, i was told, only had $10,000 in it before the event and a lot of money was raised for these families..i bet we'll do it again. Richard's parents were at the gala dinner the night of the accident and they said that Richard wanted to be the first to sign up for next year and that no one is at fault except Richard...as he says in his R&T article...we all live with the consequences of our actions. Hopefully some of you can come join us next year...for some fun and safe high speed touring.

[twboy1999]

the problem with flat underbody is this

they are meant to be on smooth roads,, if suddently the road underneeth u, has a big pot hole,, or un even,, at high speed, it could loose all of it's generated downforce

and going at 200mph.. is kinda hard to spot thoese bumps and uneven area

[bmagni]

Originally Posted by RC45 I guess from your rantings you do this every weekend then?

Actually.... its non of your business

Originally Posted by RC45 Unless you are speaking from personal experience

No, its from my Gran Turismo, Forza and PGR experience... some Mario Kart included too, does that count ?

Originally Posted by RC45 Please let me know ho wyour 170mph run this evening oes.

see reply #1

[RC45]

[quote="nthfinity"]copied from fchat

blah blah snip... I've been told that an Enzo burned up in Dallas and ferrari built him another one with the same VIN #...i bet they'll do the same for Richard...that would be cool. snip...

Interesting how stories get a life of their own.

It was Houston, and from what I recall, the guys dad already had a 2nd Enzo on order ans thats the "mysterious replacement".

[Zot09]

Horrible crash, but thank God that he is alright.

[RC45]

After careful consideration and thining about this... and the circumstances of the 3 or 4 majorhigh speed wrecks...

I am going to put money on the fact that it is a flaw in the software that is unable to handle the particular situaiton that is encountered.

Super high speed, possible acceleration and upshifts, sever change in road surface (relative to speed) and the eectronic suspension, active handling and tractin control are over comepnsating and sending the cars into the ditch along the road side.

It is probably a case where the system thinks that traction ahs been lost and because of speed and non-rotation feels the car has entered some kind of fish tail or slide and either engages an active handling algorithm which clamps a brake causgin a spin, or the opposite effect it feels it needs to dial in some more power to overcoe a situation that does not exist but has been assumed present by the software.

The result -- 1 severely bent Enzo.

[nejcdolinsek]

Originally Posted by RC45 After careful consideration and thining about this... and the circumstances of the 3 or 4 majorhigh speed wrecks... I am going to put money on the fact that it is a flaw in the software that is unable to handle the particular situaiton that is encountered. Super high speed, possible acceleration and upshifts, sever change in road surface (relative to speed) and the eectronic suspension, active handling and tractin control are over comepnsating and sending the cars into the ditch along the road side. It is probably a case where the system thinks that traction ahs been lost and because of speed and non-rotation feels the car has entered some kind of fish tail or slide and either engages an active handling algorithm which clamps a brake causgin a spin, or the opposite effect it feels it needs to dial in some more power to overcoe a situation that does not exist but has been assumed present by the software. The result -- 1 severely bent Enzo.

I'm not sure that the Enzo has the TC system which enables the computer to modulate brake force to prevent a spin (a system known as CST with Ferraris). The Enzo only has 'ASR' which cuts power to the wheels to prevent them from spinning and firms up the suspension (?) according to the prevailing conditions.

As far as I'm aware, the 612 was the first Ferrari to encorporate the CST system, so the theoretical scenario you outlined would only happen to the 612 --> 599 GTB Ferraris.

[LotusGT1]

Well, it could be a driver error. After all, I can imagine that at 200 mph small things can set you off and cause severe problems.

Somebody that actually went 200 mph confirming that ?

[nejcdolinsek]

Originally Posted by LotusGT1 Somebody that actually went 200 mph confirming that ?

Well, if GT3 counts.......

[RC45]

Originally Posted by nejcdolinsek Originally Posted by RC45 After careful consideration and thining about this... and the circumstances of the 3 or 4 majorhigh speed wrecks... I am going to put money on the fact that it is a flaw in the software that is unable to handle the particular situaiton that is encountered. Super high speed, possible acceleration and upshifts, sever change in road surface (relative to speed) and the eectronic suspension, active handling and tractin control are over comepnsating and sending the cars into the ditch along the road side. It is probably a case where the system thinks that traction ahs been lost and because of speed and non-rotation feels the car has entered some kind of fish tail or slide and either engages an active handling algorithm which clamps a brake causgin a spin, or the opposite effect it feels it needs to dial in some more power to overcoe a situation that does not exist but has been assumed present by the software. The result -- 1 severely bent Enzo. I'm not sure that the Enzo has the TC system which enables the computer to modulate brake force to prevent a spin (a system known as CST with Ferraris). The Enzo only has 'ASR' which cuts power to the wheels to prevent them from spinning and firms up the suspension (?) according to the prevailing conditions. As far as I'm aware, the 612 was the first Ferrari to encorporate the CST system, so the theoretical scenario you outlined would only happen to the 612 --> 599 GTB Ferraris.

SO only the "brake activation" scenario would be not applicable.

I am going to stick to this view until proven otherwise

4 cars out of 400.. and only about 200 ever get driven ,and then maybe only 100 regularly - and then maybe 50 get thrashed at high speeds.

So there you have an 8% failure rate.. pretty high

[nthfinity]

Update -- again, from Fchat

Originally Posted by Dogsbreath I would say excessive speed on the up side of the hill. But I did not see it happen. The hill was marked with warning cones for that specific reason. Dave P Richard Losse told a mutual friend of ours that he thought he was out of the section that he wad been warned about. He open up the car and then realized that he hadn't quite passed through the rolling hills yet and was in the process of slowing things down when the front end, "got light." From there the car went airborn and now you see the mess left over.

so it has more to do with the particular vector of the car, and the aerodynamics more than anything else