About all the bashing on american car parts

[666fast]

Originally Posted by Sinister Angel It's going to have an LS6 in it. Just imagine the tunability it will have though. Send it off to lingenfelter. You wouldn't know if the CTS next to you was a stock 400 or a Ferrari killing 700 HP tuner Caddy.

You might not be able to do that. Lingenfelter is in the hospital in a coma. He was involved in a car accident and sent to the hospital. He had an allergic reaction to some of the drugs and now he is pretty much a vegetable. In other words, he's brain dead. I have no idea what is going to happen to his company though.

[Sinister Angel]

Yeah, I heard about the accident. I think he has some really competent people in the company ready to keep it going though.

[SFDMALEX]

Originally Posted by Sinister Angel It's going to have an LS6 in it. Just imagine the tunability it will have though. Send it off to lingenfelter. You wouldn't know if the CTS next to you was a stock 400 or a Ferrari killing 700 HP tuner Caddy.

Ferrari Killing lol. Maybe is straight line, I wanna see it kill it on the track. I would be amazed if it even killed a rx7 on a track.

[Sinister Angel]

You most likely aren't going to take that car on a track. I'm talking about more on the road, although I wouldn't be surprised if you could trick out the suspension on it.

[ShadowLvr]

Well, I guess I'll toss my opinion in here as well. Note to everyone, I'm a laid back guy, so not going directly bash any one auto brand. Cept Yugo. Yugo stunk. But On American cars. There's a reason a large number of Americans like large cars. We're large people on the whole. I'm 6'0 205 lbs. (Muscled, not fat.) With bad knees. You can't force me into a subcompact at gunpoint. I am extremely uncomfortable in most of the Jap imports. Even a lot of the Europeans I'm not comfortable in. (I don't fit in the 3 Series, or Z3/Z4 BMW's, SLK and C class Benze's, and the Jag S-type is pretty snug for me.) Other things about big cars, we carry a lot of stuff. End of story. The family sedan backup car here (99 Oldsmobile Cutlass) regularly sees 4 and 5 50lb bags of dog food. Civic would be flattened under that. My personal car is a 97 Cadillac Eldorado. 4.6L DOHC V8, pushing near 300 horse, over 300 torque, and over 4000 lbs of car. On the highways, I can easily get a steady 27 mpg out of it. In the city, it drops to about 12, but I tend to race. A LOT. When normal city driving, I see 19. As far as build quality, I hear some major GM bashing, yet I haven't had these problems. The cutlass has 65k miles on it. Has had 4 problems total. 1 bad battery, replaced under warranty. 2, torn gasket on oil filter from an oil change. 3 alternator recently went out at 62k miles. 4, brake rotors tend to warp a bit with me behind the wheel, but I drive it hard. The Cutlass was a match for the Camry, Accord, and Altima at the time of purchase. Cutlass bought for $19,000 USD (and change.) Accord was asking 24k, Camry wanted 21k, Altima was equal 19k price, but not as strong a car. I got in it, drove it, then grabbed my lil brother and I could feel the car struggling. (Brother is 5'11, and 190) I notice some slamming of the Camaro as being too pricey as well. Here in the states, just over $30,000 sticker price for the SS Camaro is a very nice price. And not to be rude, but if you paid 52k for a Z06, you need to learn to haggle. Friend of mine picked a brand new one up for 48k, out the door. Tax, tag and title.
As for inefficient motors. While American cars use motors that aren't squeezing every last drop of power that can be found, there is a reason. Americans love to customize. The entire generation just before the baby boomers, and into the baby boomers LOVE to toy with their cars. Take the 2 biggest American tuners for the past 20 years. Mustang and Camaro. Mustang, powered by one of many motors, 4.6 OHV, DOHC 4.6, Supercharged DOHC 4.6. Any one of the versions are set up so that the buyer, with about $1000 can step up the power 50 or 60 horse and torque. (Think intake, performance chip, and exhaust.) Camaro was the same way. They can also be taken a lot further. For the $3000 it takes a lot of the imports to shove on a turbo for 70-150 horses, I can take a mid 90's Chevy 350 starting at 260 horse, 330 torque(LT1 since it happens to be one of my favorites) Intake, Exhaust, Chip, some heads, and a set of lumpy cams and easily be at 500 horse, and in the 450 range for torque. And yet, it will still be streetable. You grandmother may not like it, but it'll be a lot more reliable than a turboed out civic motor. And a lot more power. American auto companies build motors with a lot of potential for more. The buyer is the one who decides to go for more. One of the funny things is my street, there's 6 houses. 5 of us work on our cars ourselves. I have my 97 Eldorado, guy at the end of the street has his 03 Mustang Cobra, next to him is late 60's Charger, then the 1 person who doesn't, then a little Chevy Extreme (S10) and at the start of the street is a new Celica. Of us 5 guys toying with our cars, 4 race, and 3 show. (Celica, Extreme, and I all race and show our rides.)
There's also even more engine sharing in american lines than anything else. Take (Since I know the Chevy 350 LT1) the 96 Chevy 350. Saw Service in the, Camaro, Firebird, Trans Am, Caprice, Impala SS, Fleetwood, Roadmaster, All the chevy trucks, GMC Sierra, Chevy Silverado, the Chevy full sized club van, The SUV's got them, and I'd swear there's more... Ah well. Same with the Ford modular 4.6 OHV. Lincoln Town Car, Crown Vic, Mustang, F 150, few of the Minivans, their Club Van, Mercury Grand Marquis, and a number of their SUV's. These motors need to be able to perform well in a lot of situations, as passenger car motors, sports motors, truck motors, people moving van motors, etc and most of the imports aren't designed for that variety. And since I'll probably hear about (Oh he's using V8's) Think of the GM Series II 3800 V6. Powers most of the Buick line, sees use in Pontiac line a lot, some Chevy apps, a lot of minivan usage, and it adjusts well to all of it.
Onto the handling. (And yes, I know I'm wandering a bit on my train of thought. Had surgery yesterday, still a bit off.) Don't look to Cadillac, Buick, Lincoln, or Mercury for handling. We're the luxury segments. Pontiac, some of Ford, some of Chevy, various Chrysler/Dodge stuff. You want a handling Sedan? Take the Gran Am, Grand Prix, or the late Contour. (Europe, think Mondeo) Handling sports car? Camaro, Firebird/Trans Am, Mustang to a lesser degree, on into the "supercar" status of Corvette and Viper. Ford GT 40 if and when it makes a return. Can also look to Saleen S7 for the extreme. (Think US version of Enzo.)
I saw a mention of trucks earlier. I'll simply say this, noone but American companies make a truck that can handle what I need. Ours is a 97 Dodge Ram 3500 with the Cummins 6.0L I6 Turbo Deisel. Towing capacity over 12,000 lbs or so. Show horses, the trailer is 1800 lbs. Toss in 4 horses at 1200 a peice. Now add another 1000 lbs of tack, blankets, buckets, feed and supplies for the shows. 7600 lbs for the shows. Usually have a 600 lb camper top too. So at 8200 lbs of pulling/cargo capacity needed, no imports make much like it. Especially for $34,000 at the time. The truck has had NO problems. 50k miles on it. And if you want to get me started on truck motors, I love the Cummins deisel used by Dodge. Guy a knew, was an animal transport driver (basically guy picks up a load of animals and drive them elsewhere in the country) with a Ram. He had 1.2 Million miles. The base motor had been rebuilt once. He'd eaten like 5 transmissions in that time, and 3 turbos. Truck still ran well, and looked good. (He did love that truck too, so it had custom body panels and other goodies done too.)

And at this point, I've written a book, so, since my teeth are hurting now (had my 4 wisdom teeth pulled yesterday) I'll end my post. For anyone who wants to see my car, www.cardomain.com/id/iceheart Bought the car for $15,000 with 54,000 miles on it. Have about $10,000 in aftermarket goodies on it.

[ShadowLvr]

Ok food, and a bit of pain meds, ready to return. Now, I heard mention of the Pontiac Aztec. Ugly as shit, I will not argue. BUT, it is an important car. It is the first attempt into a new market, a new segment. College kids. Kids with bands, surfing, skate-boarding, extreme BMX, para sailing, sky diving, hiking, etc. And not a lot of money. So, we need cheap, unique vehicles, with a LOT of space. Pontiac Vibe, Aztec, Honda Element, Toyota's new Scion division, Mazda Protege Mp3 wagoney sportster, Subaru Baja, and similar. Vehicles that are pretty fun, with very competent sound systems to begin with, and a lot of cargo capacity for low prices. Vehicles in the low 20's on down to the low teens for prices. With most SUV's starting in the mid 20's on up, and also with the label of soccer mom machines, college kids avoid those. Minivans have just as bad a soccer mom stigma. Plus, they're typically very low on the fun to drive factor. So, ease up on the Aztec, it was a pioneer, it just happened to get shot.
Mercury Marauder. Good concept, poor execution. It just wasn't taken far enough, no questions. Slap the 5.4 Triton motor, and the supercharged 5.4 from the Lightning in 2 trims, do more aggressive styling, and more sportlike handling, and then we'll talk. Better yet, sic the SVT department on a Crown Vic. They've actually been doing a nice job.
And I didn't get to talk much about the European imports. Benz, BMW, Jag, all expensive as shit. No questions about it. The 3 series BMW and C class Benz, both starting in the high 30's, low 40's, I can pick up a Crown Victoria for 5-10k less, and get a lot more car for the buck. Can get into a lot of the Buick and Olds lines for mid to high 20's. (Damn meds messing me up, I had to do a couple of corrections in that last sentence.) If I want sporty sedan, Pontiac is easy. To go into the higher ends, 5 Series, E Class, both starting in the 40's 50's and 60's Start with a Vic toss in some aftermarket and you get just as much, if not more car for the buck. So much stuff for the For 4.6, that with 50k, I can get you a Crown Vic with 500 or 600 horses, some sweet styling, and still have a bunch of cash to play with. All without reliability worries. S class Benz, 7 series BMW, well BMW, all I have to say is I-Drive? Shove it in your eye. When you buy a new car, and there's 2 huge manuals and friggin videos on how to use it? You went overboard. Lets put it this way, with all the aftermarket goodies I have in my car, you can still get in it, start it, and 90% of the car, you'll be able to use without ever reading a manual. Truthfully, the 3 things you won't intuitively know, are the fine audio adjustments, (bass, treble, fade, balance, etc) how to turn my neons on and off, and the nitrous system. (Hid the controls for the nitrous and the neons.) Everything else is obvious, straightforward, and ergonomically, very nice. VW, you're still damn expensive for the car. The beetle, not to be overly rude, but that happy little car still bothers the hell out of me. The original Beetle started as Hitler's "People's Car." Vundervagen. I mean this literally, Hitler is the fuel behind the original Beetle. Then it got turned into one of the 2 biggest hippie cars ever. (The VW Bus being the other.) Hitler also was the fuel behind the Autobahn, but

(will continue later, brother needs ride home)

[666fast]

You might be right about the Aztek being aimed at my age group. Fortuneatly, it failed miserably. I don't think I've seen any young people driving one. It's mostly middle aged people.
The only problem with aiming cars at a certain age group, particularly my age group, is that the car is horribly ugly. Subaru Baja, please, it's disgusting. It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't use all that plastic crap. i would rather own a Cavalier or even worse, a Neon (non SRT4)
The Scion line isn't bad, in fact they are kind of cool. But I still don't see them selling huge amounts of them.
The Vibe is another car that could be better than it is, it doesn't look bad though.
I like a lot american cars, but there are just as many that I don't like. in fact, I tend to like european cars more than american. But that doesn't mean I'm going to bash american cars.

ShadowLvr is right about the baby boomers. They do like to work on thier own cars, they are the ones that started the whole Hot Rod scene that has evolved into the fast and furious scene.

The only reason I say anything bad about GM is because of where they are headed. they also use that gray plastic shit way to often! They did have build quality problems with some cars, but like any company, it was taken care of quickly. that however doesn't change the fact that it happened. They are on the brink of bankruptcy mostly due to retirements plans. They were much to generous.

[fedezyl]

wow. you must have cramps in your fingers from so much writing!
Anyways, I agree with you saying all that about the babyboomers, they like tuning their cars...but..I have a couple of words on Jags, BMW and Mercedes, they are expensive because they are worth that money, it's not for no reason that they are leader's in their class...as far as camaro's, firebird's and mustang's being fast, yes they are, until you decide to change direction then you're in for trouble, a couple of reasons for that bad handling, or at least not up to standard handling, a chasis, no one in it's right state of mind would build a sport's car on a chasis, not nowadays, twists to much and makes it hard to set up a good suspension, lack of independent suspension is another one...it's just to old to be able to handle well, and again, and this seems to be the general rule here, anyone can beat anyone if they start tuning car's, I am strictly talking about factory car's, not tuned not anything as they come out of the box, and i'm sorry but american car's still have a long way to go to be good car's out of the box...
Take you'r Cadillac Eldorado, not very fond of that car but I have to reckon that you did a very nice job with it, being understated but with a hint of being faster than usual...
The Jaguar S-TYPE R is in the same segment, as the M5 and RS6 (talking about them new of course, not used, price wise) They are...lighter, faster, more power, better build quality, more ergonomic, and much better handling
Take the Camaro SS, and an M3, about the same horse power, the M3 being lighter and more modern handles a trillion times better than a Camaro SS...
As far as pricing goes...american car's have the advantage...why? well they are american, any import is always going to be more expensive, because they are import's and they are taxed to give the domestic brand's an advantage, and that's in any segment...not only car makers
I have yet to see an american car to be better than an european one, please be objective and don't throw the tuning argument in, or this would be an endless discussion..

[ShadowLvr]

Ok, where was I? VW, right? Let see... Hitler fueled the Autobahn and the Beetle, Golf, you're a nice little hatchback, but, still little. Civic fighter perhaps. But a bit chunky weight for the size. Jetta, Solid little midsized, though on the smaller end of the midsized scale. Prices will vary though. To get well equipped, it's a pretty solid dent in the wallet still. Passat, you're a mid-sized sedan, with more than mid sized prices. No complaints on the cars themselves, just overpriced.
Audi. One thing first. Try some friggin names!!! A letter and a number do NOT equal a name for a car. A option package, sure, like Z06, or RT/10, SRT-4, GT, Those descripe the specific package. A4, A6, S4, TT. Those don't tell me shit. This goes for all the companies that pull this. You know who you are, Lexus, Acura, etc. (BMW and Benz narrowly avoid this. The 3 series is well enough known, and the specific things do describe the car. 325i 330i, same on 5 and 7. The Benz Classes, C class, E, class, S, class, etc) But, onto the cars. The A4 being the entry level sedan, starting at $25,000, this is NOT entry level. You want entry level, look Cavalier, Civic, Sentra, Escort. Small, subcompacts and compacts with minimal stuff. And 25k to have 2 motors, either 170 horse I4, or a 220 horse V6? No, give me something with enough balls to get out of it's own way for those kinds of prices. The S8's coming out, you're high end sports sedans, plenty of power, plenty of price. Simple styling, but, in the premeir sports sedan, it's half the name. For 60-80K I can still do up a Crown Victoria or an old Caprice to be a lot faster, and even probably out handle eventually. But, I would have to work for it. As for the Audi TT. Too Tiny!! The car does NOT fit an American. I'm not that big, but I am smashed in that car. Plus the visibility ahead. Yikes! If I happen to pull to a light, in order to tell when it changes colors, I need to get out of the car.
Ferrari's, Porsche, Lamborghini, I'll leave alone. Those 3 companies, building dedicated sports cars, (Though Porsche Cayenne....) are excellent cars. Though I'll take a Z06 at 50K or so vs the 911 Turbo's similar performance at 100k. But, those 3 brands, you buy the name as much as the car. But, Porsche Boxster. The thing is NOT worth 50k. My 97 Eldorado, with the few changes I've made, can crush that Boxster on all but the lateral G's. And with those Potenza's I ran for a while, I might be able to hold the lat's.
Volvo. A good safe car, been doing it for years. I have nearly no objections. Just make a ral intro level Volvo to compete and I'd see better future for Volvo. Safe, but no fun peoples. Try playtime!

Now, I am NOT saying American companies are perfect. Lord knows, I think some of the programmers that do the Cadillacs need to be castrated with fishing line in front of their children. Plus, GM needs a full sized RWD car. FWD is ok, but try SOMETHING in RWD again. And in the name of all things holy, bring back the Camaro. I can't believe you just forked the market over to the Mustang.
Ford, the truck line you've been ripping from Dodge, it's obvious. Try doing your own thing. In the cars, let SVT go through your lineup some more. I have a feeling you'd be shocked at how well a SVT Victoria would sell. Just think old Impala SS. Things STILL sell up in the 20's, and they ended in 96. The Mustang.... I hate to admit it, since I am a GM fan, but you've been doing well on it lately.. The new, retro look... I once again hate to admit it, but I like it. I do like old style cars, and this new Mustang definately has it's roots in the original. Dodge/Chrysler, I'll leave alone for the moment. They've been doing a great job on the trucks for years. The new Hemi.... It's a bit more hype so far, but I'll give it a chance. The car line, they're in the middle of re-working a lot of things. I respect the ricer/tuner aspect of the new SRT-4. It's actually a good equation. Popular economy car, with basicaly a sports division (think SVT, AMG, or M series) approach. Now let your PVO (which if I recall right, is what DC is calling their sports division) hit some of the other vehicles, and we shall see. I'd like to see a Dodge truck to go after the lightning. And a GM truck. Horsepower wars!! I do know that the Hemi will be seeing a lot of use in the cars soon, and a number of DC cars will go RWD, so for now, my opinion on DC is just on hold. Potential, time to see what they make of it.
And at this point, I'm done for now. Think I hear eyes crossing from all the reading on my posts anyways.

[AlienDB7]

Maybe I'm just 2-3 years too old but I don't see why people would buy one of those ugly boxes (Aztek, Element, Scion, Baja). A normal SUV or hatchback works just as well without the ugly look.

Vibe is a pretty good example of what the american can do to the interior if the bean counters stop interfering with the production. GM designed the interior and toyota provided the platform and powertrain. I believe it sells better than the "redesigned" [ugly] sunfire.

If you read the JD power quality (after 3 years) survey, GM's buick actually has higher rating than toyota, honda and porsche! Check out the ranking at http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/08/pf/a...os.durability/

For the initali quality survey ( http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/ima...03028cfull.gif ), the result is even more surprising. Just see it for yourself. Probably the cheaper looking interior has to do with quality improvement

[ShadowLvr]

Ok, Fed... The Mustang has or is switching to Independant suspension, didn't you know? They're still primarily dedicated ot straight line performance, but the newer ones are handling a LOT better. Also, the reason it may seem that the M3 handles better than the Mustang and Camaro is low end grunt. You give either American car too much poke, and the rear happily fishes out. And the M3 is the top of the lin sport 3 series. If you want a fairer fight, take the SVT Mustang and the Camaro SS.
Now on Handling, I have an 03 M3 listed at a .87 on the lateral G. 3523 lbs. 1/4 mile in 13.4 seconds.
Working on finding the SS Camaro. I have the RS, but that was with the 3.8 L V6, and nowhere near the rubber. It pulled a .81 on the lat G.
SVT Mustang shows a 3665 weight
Z28 Camaro in 02 showing at 3433 weight... With a .84 on the skidpad, it barely gives up anything to the M3. This is the Z28 mind you, not the SS which had a even tighter suspensions, and stickier Z rated tires.
Also, with a price in the 30,000 mark as opposed to the 40's of the new Cobra, and M3, I think the SS Camaro is a better bang for buck.

And I gotta run for now. Too much to do...

[Sinister Angel]

The Camaro SS was tested by road and track at .87 on the skidpad

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....&page_number=3
That's the proof.

If the m3 is posting a skidpad like that, it seems like they are even to me, and the SS has the low end grunt to get the hell outta those turns like a raped ape.

[fedezyl]

I know what you're saying about the car's but lateral g's is not everything, the M3 is an overall better car, and as for the price, again the same import vs domestic thing...plus the premium for it being a BMW...you're not only paying performance but build quality and equipement too...the one I like now is the new Mustang coming out with the retro look, if it's even near of what the GT500 was in it's era I would buy one in no time!
I think american car manufacturer's are finally catching up with european car makers, maybe it has something to do with the recent shopping they've been doing at the other side of the pond...(Fiat, Alfa Romeo..)

[Sinister Angel]

Originally Posted by fedezyl I know what you're saying about the car's but lateral g's is not everything...

Ummm, in turns lateral g's kinda matter...

[fedezyl]

About Road and Track....i've seen them do intersting times in some car, makes me wonder about the accuracy of their times....