Q&A Porsche discussion

[st-anger]

...btw, very nice new avatar lakatu, congrats for this one

[lakatu]

Thanks st-anger for noticing the avatar. I think it spices up my posts. Can you believe that this guy, whom I won't name but he knows who he is, at JW offered to turn my clip into a gif for me. There are a lot of great people at JW 8) .

I got the clip off a Best Motoring video. Unfortunately that was all there was from that car. Interestingly though it was at the NS and I think their top driver Kurosawa (Gan-san) was driving. I love the drifting of the rear as he rounds the corner. It is kind of hard to see it in the avatar but in the larger clip it looks like the rear suspension was unsettled by a bump in the road. Is that as difficult and as “on the edge” :shock: as it looks? Since I have no experience to draw on, I have always wondered about the ability of the driver to control slides like that when I see them. I'm guessing it would require some real talent at those speeds to control that slide.

At the beginning of the clip it says it was a 1991 911 Turbo and that the NS time was 8:09. That sounds too fast to me. I have been keeping a record of NS times that I have found on 911s and Sport Auto in 1992 ran a 365hp 964 Turbo (I’m guess the 1992 was a Turbo S) in 8:32. If I am not mistaken the 1991 911 Turbo had the same horsepower everywhere across the world and had 320hp. Doesn’t 8:09 sound too fast?

[mindgam3]

Indeed, if the slide was caused by a bump then quick reactions are really important, second to judging just how much opposite lock to put on. Either way im sure it takes alot of skill and experience to catch it at that sort of speed

[st-anger]

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posted by Porsche_Cayenne

Hi !

I haven't written here for a looong time because I was on Holiday and I had a lot of problem with my pc. Now I'm here

Anyway, 2 week ago I tried by Porsche Verona here in Italy a Cayenne S Tiptronic... wonderful ! I can't say in english everything I'd like to say about the ride... too diffucult... anyway I was at 150 km/h and the car was perfectly silenced... ... and it has got a lot of torque always!
Question for Stanger... is Porsche going to restyle Cayenne? When? Should I wait for buy Cayenne S?

PS= Today my friend ordered a 911 Turbo S cabrio 450hp, dark grey, full optional ... PCCB and so on...

thx

[st-anger]

Originally Posted by st-anger MOVED: posted by Porsche_Cayenne Hi ! I haven't written here for a looong time because I was on Holiday and I had a lot of problem with my pc. Now I'm here Anyway, 2 week ago I tried by Porsche Verona here in Italy a Cayenne S Tiptronic... wonderful ! I can't say in english everything I'd like to say about the ride... too diffucult... anyway I was at 150 km/h and the car was perfectly silenced... ... and it has got a lot of torque always! Question for Stanger... is Porsche going to restyle Cayenne? When? Should I wait for buy Cayenne S? PS= Today my friend ordered a 911 Turbo S cabrio 450hp, dark grey, full optional ... PCCB and so on... thx

...i´m glad you liked the "S", definitely a fine car...
a restyling is planned for MY05 with quite some new options for interior and exterior...
i don´t know your preferences but i think it´d be a smart step to get in contact with your dealer, he´ll have all the information for you as a prospective customer and i´m sure he´ll be glad to make up the perfect package for you

[st-anger]

Originally Posted by lakatu Thanks st-anger for noticing the avatar. I think it spices up my posts. Can you believe that this guy, whom I won't name but he knows who he is, at JW offered to turn my clip into a gif for me. There are a lot of great people at JW 8) . I got the clip off a Best Motoring video. Unfortunately that was all there was from that car. Interestingly though it was at the NS and I think their top driver Kurosawa (Gan-san) was driving. I love the drifting of the rear as he rounds the corner. It is kind of hard to see it in the avatar but in the larger clip it looks like the rear suspension was unsettled by a bump in the road. Is that as difficult and as “on the edge” :shock: as it looks? Since I have no experience to draw on, I have always wondered about the ability of the driver to control slides like that when I see them. I'm guessing it would require some real talent at those speeds to control that slide. At the beginning of the clip it says it was a 1991 911 Turbo and that the NS time was 8:09. That sounds too fast to me. I have been keeping a record of NS times that I have found on 911s and Sport Auto in 1992 ran a 365hp 964 Turbo (I’m guess the 1992 was a Turbo S) in 8:32. If I am not mistaken the 1991 911 Turbo had the same horsepower everywhere across the world and had 320hp. Doesn’t 8:09 sound too fast?

Thanks st-anger for noticing the avatar. I think it spices up my posts. Can you believe that this guy, whom I won't name but he knows who he is, at JW offered to turn my clip into a gif for me. There are a lot of great people at JW .

^that´s for sure

…to answer your question: “is it easy?” well, yes and no, i mean with the older Porsche models it´s quite easy to powerslide and to control it, again for a skilled driver!
i mean i´m quite often at NS and nearly every two or three days you hear or see about a guy who crashed his car, and kinda often it´s a owner of a older Porsche model who wanted to discover the limit of his car, BUT nordschleife is definitely the wrong place for that, when you enter a bend with 160kmh and you don´t know what´ll happen due to lack of experience...well, then you had a Porsche...
again, a Porsche at the limit is one of the few remaining drivers cars, the older models more than the "younger" but also a 996 can be kinda trickey, i know many many ppl who´re saying that a 996 isn´t a true Porsche or sportscar any more, even their wife can push it to its limit...well, that´s definitely not the case, and those ppl haven´t even discovered the limit of their car themselves...
in the end, it´s and endless discussion, so one needn´t be an expert to powerslide with a Porsche, but in that vid at that speed i´d say this driver knows what he´s doing so “yes” he looks like quite skilled, because it´s the speed that counts when driving at the limit…
of course it also depends on the car, as you already told us, this is a 1991 911 Turbo, a very special car in the Turbo history, and one of the few REAL driver´s cars…
but also IMO 8:09 sounds too fast, I think there´s a mix up with the 993 GT2 lap time…

…as you mentioned NS, and I know you ( …and hopefully some others ) are interested into NS driving, the vid shows a very important and famous section of NS: “Pflanzgarten”
in short, a kinda brave driver is required there because one has to fight with a prancing car through the whole section, and all this in 4th at ~170 to 180kmh…

the section is a key point for a good lap time but also one of the most difficult…
after the “Eiskurve” the track is getting narrower (1) and when there´s traffic, do not drive side by side, this is nearly impossible when you´re after a good lap time, because the driver has to position the car minutious for the first left, stay to the left at (1), touching the curbs there is no problem but only slightely because they´re quite high there and right before there´s a little bump so the car unsettles very easily, after corner one be sure that the car can run in a straight line through the next two bends, a left right combination, do not touch the curbs anywhere. as our reference car i´ll take a Porsche GT3, so we´re in 4th at that point, although we quickly have to downshift after the jump stay in 4th, be careful right in front of the jump is a little dip, as we can see in lakatus avatar, that unsettles the car again with a vertical movement and reduces load surprisingly, why surprisingly, speed here is ~ 175kmh, (2) and this little dip is just some meters before the first braking point, main problem with most of the drivers: they brake at the wrong spot, get hectic at the wheel and can´t take the crest straight which is very important here, next mistake: most of the cars have ABS system and they miss the braking point, because as we know now that we shouldn´t brake to early, but braking too late is even worse, because then you can get in some real trouble when the weight has been transferred away from the wheels when the car is getting light right on the crest and after “landing” you won´t have enough braking power to get through the next corner.
so it´s necessary to brake in two stages, a very short but as hard as possible right after the dip and before the crest, and a longer after the jump with less braking power…
after “landing” ( the car is flying some meters in Pflanzgarten I – see pic ) the driver quickly has to downshift into 3rd, when entring the right hand bend understeering is a bit of a problem, kinda slippery pavement there and don´t underestimate the speed, so it´s very important for the upcoming left hand corner (4) that the right hand one, which has a double apex, is driven through with a fixed steering angle, no corrections in the corner should be made and no lifting of the accl, keep the car under load so that it can stabilise - so keep close to the curb of the first right bend, then move away from the inside edge so as to be able to work your way along the curbs on the far right at the exit. all this in 3rd at full throttle, watch out at exit of the second right hand bend when the car hits the rev-maximum, oversteering may occur easily, through the left hand corner (4) also with 3rd after lifting the throttle and braking only slightely, one can take the curbs there, no problem, upshift into 4th, the “Keke Rosberg” jump (5) is not a big problem, full throttle in 4th, some braking in front of the next right hand corner – the remaining corners all at full throttle and we passed “Pflanzgarten” and approach “Schwalbenschwanz” …

pics:

approaching "Schlalbenschwanz I", comming from "Eiskurve"




unfortunately we can´t see it that good from that pic, but this is right before the dip and the first big jump...
you can clearly see the rubber on the pavement where you should brake, right before the crest, and NOT on the crest...



yep...cars CAN fly: :shock:



"Keke Rosberg jumphill" at the exit of "Pflanzgarten"





overview of the section:




so track driving isn´t that easy, especially at NS...

[lakatu]

Oh my :shock: :shock: That has got to be one of the best post I have read . When I asked the question I had no idea that it would generate such a response. Thank you . I felt like I was sitting beside you the whole way and I truly failed to appreciate how difficult it is to drive on the NS at such speeds 8) .

Let me ask four follow up questions I had while reading the post.

“is it easy?” well, yes and no, i mean with the older Porsche models it´s quite easy to powerslide and to control it, again for a skilled driver!

1) By older models I am guessing that refers to pre-993 so obviously 964 & 965 but would you include the 3.2L and 930 3.3L in that category also or are they outrageously difficult to control in such situations? Certainly 993 and up are a different car as it relates to handling.

1991 911 Turbo, a very special car in the Turbo history, and one of the few REAL driver´s cars…

2) As you know I am a huge fan and so would agree with you here. I was wondering if you have had a chance to drive one? Could you possibly elaborate on why in your opinion the 965 was such a special car. I have visited other websites with 911 Turbo owners and a few have owned both 930s and 965s and they indicated that the 965 understeered and felt heavier and less nimble than the 930s. I think part of the experience they had with the understeer as a result of the special locking differential that the 965 used with 100% lock on over run. Anything you could add here would make my day .

most of the cars have ABS system

3) Based on the description you gave of the speed and terrain, it sounds like ABS is almost a must to drive fast on a bumpy surface like NS. However, Porsches have always been known for their excellent braking feel. How important would you say having ABS is to a good lap time on NS in a 911. Let me ask it a different way: How much time theoretically could be shaved off a mid 80s model 911 if it had ABS? Is this a big factor in Porsche’s improvement in 911 model lap times or not really?

Last question

IMO 8:09 sounds too fast, I think there´s a mix up with the 993 GT2 lap time…

4) On the lap time issue they also had a clip that proceeded the 911 Turbo of a 1990 NSX lapping in 8:16. I think that a 1991 965 should be faster than a 1990 NSX. I agree with you that is too fast. I find it both strange that the time is comparable to 993 TT & lower than a 964 RS at 8:28. I think the video segment was originally published in 1991 prior to the 993 GT2 but your right I looked up Sport Autos test of the 993 GT2 and it was 8:09.3. I also found a listing for Sport Auto driving a 965 with 365hp in 1992 with a time of 8:32.

Could the driver account for such a time difference? I personally don't think so. I am pretty sure that the track lengths were the same in the early 90s to today but sometimes people use different timing points. However, I would think that professional journalists would be aware of and use the same timing points. Any thoughts on a possible timing difference explanation?

[st-anger]

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posted by Ford Capri 2.8i

Although its not profitable....otherwise porsche would have launched a 3 door cayenne.....regardless the profit of it(a 3 door cayenne based in the current cayenne, which will get a bit shorter wheelbase, which will be a bit lighter, which the back shape would approach more to a 911, but it would be less spacious though).......would a 3 door porsche cayenne be welcome for members of this forum?

For me ..yes...and indeed...once it will improve every aspect of the porsche...the handling of it, the performances, the shape of it(it would approach its shape to a coupe car....) except the space

Ill be waiting to your answers

[st-anger]

Originally Posted by st-anger MOVED: posted by Ford Capri 2.8i Although its not profitable....otherwise porsche would have launched a 3 door cayenne.....regardless the profit of it(a 3 door cayenne based in the current cayenne, which will get a bit shorter wheelbase, which will be a bit lighter, which the back shape would approach more to a 911, but it would be less spacious though).......would a 3 door porsche cayenne be welcome for members of this forum? For me ..yes...and indeed...once it will improve every aspect of the porsche...the handling of it, the performances, the shape of it(it would approach its shape to a coupe car....) except the space Ill be waiting to your answers

i don´t see any sense for a 3 door Cayenne that is significantly shorter and smaller...
the 955 should be a full 4 door Porsche for the whole family, when someone wants a more sportier Porsche....go for a 911...
so i´m quite happy with the 955 as it is now, personally i´d never buy a smaller 3 door version, even if it´s a better performer that the current 955s...
...but that´s just my opinion, would be nice to hear some others, quite an interesting question IMO...

[st-anger]

Originally Posted by lakatu most of the cars have ABS system 3) Based on the description you gave of the speed and terrain, it sounds like ABS is almost a must to drive fast on a bumpy surface like NS. However, Porsches have always been known for their excellent braking feel. How important would you say having ABS is to a good lap time on NS in a 911. Let me ask it a different way: How much time theoretically could be shaved off a mid 80s model 911 if it had ABS? Is this a big factor in Porsche’s improvement in 911 model lap times or not really?

a must…well, yes and no…
any road car without ABS is more or less unimaginable nowadays, it´s not because of performance, it´s all about safety…
on the track, well this is a double-edged sword, again it all comes down to the “skilled level” for an average driver i´d say ABS is definitely a must, kinda quick it can get very very embarrassing when one approaches a fast bend with 170 and the driver misses the braking point, without ABS you can be sure that he´ll end up in the crash barrier, but with an ABS vehicle the driver can brake as hard as he can AND he also can steer, so even for an unskilled driver when he´s way too fast there´s a good chance that he´ll catch the car…
only very skilled drivers can brake with ABS, but then better than with ABS !!!
on the track ABS might be more obstructive that helpful, because like ESP it activates when it shouldn´t, believe it or not, but some crashs happend during testing because the ABS system started to regularise… nevertheless a sport-ABS is a kinda good option because then you have 10 or more percentage of slip, but also all the advantages of the system…

to come back to Porsche, as you mentioned the Porsche Brembo brakes are probably the best brakes available, so good drivers won´t even come into ABS regularise range they simply know what to do on the brakes, I have a very good example for this but it´s not ready yet, I think u know what i´m talking about , just to give you an example for now, I think we all know about the PCCB issue and it´s race track abilities, to be honest the first gen PCCBs aren´t a good choice for the racetrack, why ??? well, it´s a bit difficult, as we know not everyone had problems with PCCB on track, but most of the drivers, note we´re now talking about track driving only, this is very important and goes together with what i´ve mentioned before, so as you know PAG is very well known for their extremely reliable performance parts, so the PCCB issue had been quite an issue inside PAG, own workgroups were implemented into development to find out the reasons, and this is what is most likely: ( note you´re the first to know that ) we found out with the help of the drivers who had the problems and those who had no problems that a large amount of the “unskilled” drivers had the most problems, among the better drivers there were hardly any problems in relation to their track use, which had been of course definitely more, so what the team came up with, the PCCB is destroyed by non-uniform heat impacts because of massive regularisation of the ABS system under hard track driving, so during development our testers, who have to be very skilled, haven´t been that much in ABS regularisation, because then they simply were faster round the track as we know know from reading the stuff above, and in the end the PCCBs were not designed for that much use insinde the ABS regularise range…

when you ask how much time could be shaved off…well that´s only a theoretical question and no one can really give you an answer, I mean in comparison to nowadays braking systems we really can´t compare them to mid 80s braking systems, there´s been so much development on the components and also on the regulation systems, so I think I can´t name you any figures…

[st-anger]

Originally Posted by lakatu Last question IMO 8:09 sounds too fast, I think there´s a mix up with the 993 GT2 lap time… 4) On the lap time issue they also had a clip that proceeded the 911 Turbo of a 1990 NSX lapping in 8:16. I think that a 1991 965 should be faster than a 1990 NSX. I agree with you that is too fast. I find it both strange that the time is comparable to 993 TT & lower than a 964 RS at 8:28. I think the video segment was originally published in 1991 prior to the 993 GT2 but your right I looked up Sport Autos test of the 993 GT2 and it was 8:09.3. I also found a listing for Sport Auto driving a 965 with 365hp in 1992 with a time of 8:32. Could the driver account for such a time difference? I personally don't think so. I am pretty sure that the track lengths were the same in the early 90s to today but sometimes people use different timing points. However, I would think that professional journalists would be aware of and use the same timing points. Any thoughts on a possible timing difference explanation?

yep, track length had been same like today, as far as timing points is concerned I only know two types of lap timing on NS, we can only take the so called “BtG” times, as u know we can´t race down the “Döttinger Höhe” completely because somewhere in the middle of it there´s “pit lane” of the tourist drivers the start/finish point and the famous “Green Hell” restaurant – oh boy what an blond waitress they have there :shock: -, so what´s BtG, that simply means “bridge to gantry”, the lap is clocked from the first bridge right after the start to the gantry at “Döttinger Höhe” some meters before exit… to a full lap, depending on the car one have to add 30+ seconds, but all the tourist drivers only compare their BtG times and do not add the time for the full lap, nobody can really say how much time it´ll take him to race down Döttinger Höhe completely…
mags like SA are allowed to clock the full lap off tourist driving…

NOTE: whenever you´re at NS plz DO NOT clock lap times, this is too dangerous either for you and all the others, i definitely don´t want to misguide members to clock lap times on NS !!!

but i don´t think that all this is the case with the 965 lap time…
when we talk about the driver, i´d say “yes” a good lap definitely depends on the driver, one should have at least 200 laps of experience to clock a good lap time, NS is different u know, so many corners, much of them blind, so after just some dozens of laps you don´t know nothing on NS …

and when we´re talking about lap times, personally i ONLY trust HvS & Jochen Übler from Sport Auto, NO ONE else from any other mags or tv shows! a close friend of mine knows HvS quite good and i mean everyone who´s quite often at NS knows him and so we have some good insight and it´s all very transparent, and i´ve to repeat it again, SA is the one and only mag for me and i don´t pay too much attention to times of other mags or TV shows, for us only the SA time counts…it´s quite interesting here in germany/austria i just have to look around, everyone tells you: ”well, wait for the SA Supertest…”

in the end, i don´t know how they came up with such a time, and as you know now…i don´t care that much



will try to answer the remaining questions asap...

[lakatu]

Thanks st-anger for taking the time to write such a detailed reply. You know that I really appreciate it . Your right and I couldn’t agree more about SA and the Supertest. It defiantly is the best source for comparing historical NS times since HvS has done, as far as I know, all the tests. Are you aware of a website that lists more historical SA lap times other than http://www.track-challenge.com/main_e.asp which has only the more recent cars. I have come across a few SA times scattered in different places but I sometimes wonder about their correctness. So a lap time of greater than 8:32 sounds right to you for a 965? I guess I am just disappointed that the 965 can’t post a quicker lap time. That lap time is about as fast as a 993 and yet it has a better power to weight ratio and a firmer suspension. I guess it just shows you how much of an improvement the 993 was over the 964.

I wonder if lap times have increased at NS due to changes that have been made to the surface of the track. I have heard that to reduce accidents some of the jumps have been either decrease or eliminated. Do you have any idea when these major changes have been put in place or when the last change to the surface was?

Since we are talking about drivers what is your opinion of Stefan Roser? From what I have read he is a controversial driver. Most respected drivers I think have a low opinion of and his driving. Yet I have heard some say he has the talent to be one of the better drivers.

Certainly he drives for show and not set lap records . I was just wondering if your paths have crossed and what your opinion is on his driving skills.

For anyone interested here are some other NS lap time sites
http://www.nurburgring.de/?rubrik=rekorde&lang=eng
http://www.bmwdeler.no/
http://www.planet-walter.de/rekorde.htm

[st-anger]

Originally Posted by lakatu Thanks st-anger for taking the time to write such a detailed reply. You know that I really appreciate it . Your right and I couldn’t agree more about SA and the Supertest. It defiantly is the best source for comparing historical NS times since HvS has done, as far as I know, all the tests. Are you aware of a website that lists more historical SA lap times other than http://www.track-challenge.com/main_e.asp which has only the more recent cars. I have come across a few SA times scattered in different places but I sometimes wonder about their correctness. So a lap time of greater than 8:32 sounds right to you for a 965? I guess I am just disappointed that the 965 can’t post a quicker lap time. That lap time is about as fast as a 993 and yet it has a better power to weight ratio and a firmer suspension. I guess it just shows you how much of an improvement the 993 was over the 964. I wonder if lap times have increased at NS due to changes that have been made to the surface of the track. I have heard that to reduce accidents some of the jumps have been either decrease or eliminated. Do you have any idea when these major changes have been put in place or when the last change to the surface was? Since we are talking about drivers what is your opinion of Stefan Roser? From what I have read he is a controversial driver. Most respected drivers I think have a low opinion of and his driving. Yet I have heard some say he has the talent to be one of the better drivers. Certainly he drives for show and not set lap records . I was just wondering if your paths have crossed and what your opinion is on his driving skills. For anyone interested here are some other NS lap time sites http://www.nurburgring.de/?rubrik=rekorde&lang=eng http://www.bmwdeler.no/ http://www.planet-walter.de/rekorde.htm

yep, i´ve a confirmed 8:33 for the 320hp 1991 Porsche Turbo, it´s a SA time…

pheeew…you can ask questions
well, there´ve been some, this is what I came up with:
in 1927 when NS was built, there were 88 left hand, and 84 right hand corners, after the big reworks in the 70s only 40 right hand and 33 left hand corners remained…
so, most important changes had been chnges to bends, crash barriers and definitely jumps, most important ones were jump at “Flugplatz” which remained but was eased, also eased were a jump right after the “Breitscheid” bridge, a very tricky jump in a left hand bend, a very spectacular jump had been the one at “Kesselchen” exit were the cars actually took off the road with all four wheels. probably the most challenging jump back then, the jump “into” the “Brünnchen”, for those of you who know the section “Fuchsröhre” nowadays, this is nothing against the “Brünnchen” back then, it was a flat straight, then all of a sudden a extremely steep downhill, and then a very steep uphill, so definitely no comparison to the section nowadays…
the drivers approached this section absolutely blind there were many accidents so they changed it. Some other “bad” jumps were removed at “Schwalbenschwanz” at first left hand corner, also one at “Galgenkopf”, also some works from “Bergwerk” to “Klostertal” at that time to improve safety, at famous “km13” the big jump hill was eased, here the cars approached at a very high speed to the jump and right in the jump the track made a slight left hand bend, the cars took off again with all wheels and sometimes landed just in fromt of the bushes to the very right, so extremely dangerous, again quite some accidents there and one of the spots for visitors and photographers…
in 1963 “Karussell” was reworked due to safety reasons, the “Hohenrain” section was added in ´67 which adds ~25m to the old track, in 1974 some changes at “Döttinger Höhe”, since then some minor works had been done to the surface, would be waaaaay to much to list everything here…
as far as I know last changes were done in winter 2003, again changes to the surface and new FIA safety fences…

…never met “Sideways Stefan” as we call him here, from what I know, he´s very very talented ( as you can see in his world famous vid ) not only with going sideways but he should also be a serious track driver, I think he´s been in the AMS test crew, but again, i´ve no detailed knowledge of him…

[mindgam3]

great picture of that M3 st anger love it

[st-anger]

Originally Posted by mindgam3 great picture of that M3 st anger love it

...have some more pics like that one, hopefully there´ll soon be a own NS topic in "PC" so keep an eye open...

here´s a another one ///M5