Q&A Porsche discussion

[TT]

My fuck, either you are a genius either I am dumb I have the GT3 RS in 1:18 and 1:43 and I didn't think I could check it out HAHAHA!

Both have just "GT3", so yes I think we can conclude that one could really be a real RS

[st-anger]

...looking at the front i say it´s a RS, yes...

i know, i know - rather quiet in here lately, again sorry guys but i´m more "out in the field" than at home right now have to arrange and organize many many things but as i said - i PROMISE to be back again with some >very nice< stuff, just be patient plz...

hope to see all of ya soon...

[dingo]

Originally Posted by TT My fuck, either you are a genius either I am dumb......

I think its a bit of both

Originally Posted by st-anger ...looking at the front i say it´s a RS, yes... i know, i know - rather quiet in here lately, again sorry guys but i´m more "out in the field" than at home right now have to arrange and organize many many things but as i said - i PROMISE to be back again with some >very nice< stuff, just be patient plz... hope to see all of ya soon...

look forward to it.....have fun out in the field

[sentra_dude]

Well, this is more of a general question, not just Porsche related, but there's lots of knowledge here in Porsche central, so here it goes.

I was wondering about fuel consumption in engines. Maybe kind of an odd question, here in a forum where we all enjoy burning lots of gasoline, but I am still interested in the subject. I know its pretty hard to make a generalization on something like this, I'm sure every engine is different, but maybe use the example of the standard 3.6L F6 engine in the 996. Its my understanding Porsche is at least somewhat worried about mpg, so if you drive conservatively you can obtain good mpg.

Let's say you did want to get good mpg, what would be the best way to go about this, only use very low rpms (say, below 2800rpm) and very light throttle? I have heard it is sometimes better to get right up to speed, using a little more throttle so you can quickly get to a constant rpm (where presumably fuel consumption will be less than a varying rpm). Is there a large penalty in fuel consumption for going into the power zone, like say 4500rpm and above?

I know that's a pretty complicated question(s)...so just answer whatever.

Thanks!

[st-anger]

...maybe i can add some inside thoughts from PAG - YES, you´re right Porsche is taking the whole economy thing quite serious - i think we can say, although no one really speaks about that - that Porsches always had a very good fuel milage for sports cars and the F6 is kinda penuriously with the expensive Super Plus fuel...
one can easily drive a modern 911 with something around 10ltr - but especially here in germany this is kinda hard to reach...
...personally i ride the 955 with everything between 14 and 20 ltr with lot´s of autobahn parts but i have to admitt that i´m not very keen on a good fuel milage - just want to cross my distances as safe and fast as possible...

in general we can say that the more u depress the accelerator the more fuel consumption u have, regardeless at which speed u´re driving, this is all controlled by the ECU and present accl. pedal position...
so i´d say when u want to safe some fuel be gentle on the accl and do not revv to high - with a gasoline engine u can upshift at 2000rpm on a diesel at 1500rpm - of course depending on the power of the engine, because too low rpm is actually increasing the fuel consumption due to inner friction of engine parts - in the end it is - as u said - very much dependent on the individual car, so better check it out yourself with the car computer...
and yes, there is quite a large penalty when going over 4500+ rpm fuel consumption may double then...

but again im not the expert in here for saving fuel - more for burning it kinda fast

[SamuraiGti]

The chief editor of Best Motoring (a famous japanese video show about cars), Motoharu Kurosawa, best known as "Gan-San", a 65-years old ex-pilot and racing legend in Japan, has recently bought a Carrera GT.

In a recent Best Motoring International issue, he drove the Carrera GT for the first time, in Suzuka circuit, and he seemed somewhat disappointed. He said things like:

"The car feels a bit heavy"
"The tires aren't responsive to weight transfer"
"The dampers on the car are too soft, not stiff enough for performance driving"
"Because the suspension is soft, the front feels heavy at corner entry"
"There is a lot of weight transfer"
"I wish the front turned into corners better, the tires need to be more performance oriented"
"The car doesn't feel like it really has 612 horsepower under the hood"
"Comparing to the high cornering capabilities of the NSX-R [his car before he got the Carrera GT], you can definitely feel the heavy weight of this car"
"It feels heavier than the catalogue 1300 kg"
"I can tell you for sure that the overall performance is excellent, but my first impression is that the car is very conservative"

Since you've already driven the CGT by yourself too, I would like you to comment the affirmations of Mr. Kurosawa.

[sentra_dude]

Originally Posted by st-anger ...maybe i can add some inside thoughts from PAG - YES, you´re right Porsche is taking the whole economy thing quite serious - i think we can say, although no one really speaks about that - that Porsches always had a very good fuel milage for sports cars and the F6 is kinda penuriously with the expensive Super Plus fuel... one can easily drive a modern 911 with something around 10ltr - but especially here in germany this is kinda hard to reach... ...personally i ride the 955 with everything between 14 and 20 ltr with lot´s of autobahn parts but i have to admitt that i´m not very keen on a good fuel milage - just want to cross my distances as safe and fast as possible... in general we can say that the more u depress the accelerator the more fuel consumption u have, regardeless at which speed u´re driving, this is all controlled by the ECU and present accl. pedal position... so i´d say when u want to safe some fuel be gentle on the accl and do not revv to high - with a gasoline engine u can upshift at 2000rpm on a diesel at 1500rpm - of course depending on the power of the engine, because too low rpm is actually increasing the fuel consumption due to inner friction of engine parts - in the end it is - as u said - very much dependent on the individual car, so better check it out yourself with the car computer... and yes, there is quite a large penalty when going over 4500+ rpm fuel consumption may double then... but again im not the expert in here for saving fuel - more for burning it kinda fast

Thanks for the response st-anger, I appreciate it. 8)

[lakatu]

I saw this post late last night and had some thoughts on the subject. I’m not really sure if my thoughts are correct so maybe st-anger or the other members with engineering back grounds can correct me if I make a mistake here.

To answer your question I think it is easiest to think about a single cylinder. An engine takes gas which is a long chain hydrocarbon and burns it in the presence of oxygen to form hopefully, CO2 and H20. Now confining the discussion to normally aspirated engines, when you step on the accelerator you aren’t increasing the volume of fuel mixture nor are you increasing the compression ratio all you are doing in enriching the mixture. Since the level of oxygen in the atmosphere is about 21% it seems to me that there maybe a point where there isn’t enough oxygen in the fuel mixture to completely burn the fuel. As a result, if you accelerate quickly the extra rich mixture of gas to oxygen may not allow for a complete extraction of all the chemical energy and as a result wasted fuel and lower gas mileage.

I would also tend to think that the higher the engine revs the greater the internal friction and energy loss required to over come that internal friction. However, it sounds like from st-angers comments that this maybe the case for lower revs not higher, which doesn’t make much sense intuitively to me.

I have heard people say that the best way to increase gas mileage it to accelerate slowly and smoothly and to shift the engine around the peak of the torque curve. Again based on st-angers comments that may not be true.

Interesting question though.

[st-anger]

Originally Posted by SamuraiGti The chief editor of Best Motoring (a famous japanese video show about cars), Motoharu Kurosawa, best known as "Gan-San", a 65-years old ex-pilot and racing legend in Japan, has recently bought a Carrera GT. In a recent Best Motoring International issue, he drove the Carrera GT for the first time, in Suzuka circuit, and he seemed somewhat disappointed. He said things like: "The car feels a bit heavy" "The tires aren't responsive to weight transfer" "The dampers on the car are too soft, not stiff enough for performance driving" "Because the suspension is soft, the front feels heavy at corner entry" "There is a lot of weight transfer" "I wish the front turned into corners better, the tires need to be more performance oriented" "The car doesn't feel like it really has 612 horsepower under the hood" "Comparing to the high cornering capabilities of the NSX-R [his car before he got the Carrera GT], you can definitely feel the heavy weight of this car" "It feels heavier than the catalogue 1300 kg" "I can tell you for sure that the overall performance is excellent, but my first impression is that the car is very conservative" Since you've already driven the CGT by yourself too, I would like you to comment the affirmations of Mr. Kurosawa.

...i was waiting for someone asking these questions since i´ve seen the vid - and i´ve seen it many many many times as i´ve studied it after he droped the lines u listed above...
i don´t know that much about BM and i can only speak about the Porsche comparisons as i´ve only seen them and the one thing - and many here agreed with that opinion - i noticed is a very very strong patriotism on japanese cars like NSX or Skyline - can´t remember exactely but there´re some comparisons where japanese cars are actually faster than other one´s comming from europe and many times i found it hard to believe - but well....
it didn´t really bother me untill i saw the GT test drive with this Gan-San guy - to be honest i don´t know nothing about his motorsport background or how good he really is behind the wheel - to drive a modern car ( even when it has 500+hp ) fast around a F1-style race track for the camera is nothing special for me personally as most of the BM drivers are showcar drivers - again, maybe they can do better but looking at the vids, seeing accl. points, braking points, different lines and the concentration they´re driving with - well, in the end i think it´s more about entertainment than to really look inside the performance, better said lap times - but that´s just my personal opinion although i have to add that i´m not the "worst" driver myself and i think i can judge that kinda good if someone really knows what he´s doing behind the wheel...

so all the points of criticism are wiped off with three digit numbers: 7:32

and this is just the HvS time and we already know that WR can do a 7:2xmin...
a car that is capable to clock such a time on the most demanding track, the Nürburgring Nordschleife, can´t be that bad, because when u have a car as described by Gan-San u´ll end up dead trying to clock such times...
this time is only a number and many many of u who haven´t been at NS themselves will think that this is nothing really special - clocking such times with a 600+ hp car - but regardeless how good the driver is - for times below 7:30 u simply need a PERFECT car and the GT is a perfect car...

"the car feels a bit heavy"

- don´t know any situation where i thought that the GT felt heavy, more the other way round handling is very much comparable with a GT3 Cup car...

"The tires aren't responsive to weight transfer"

the N0 designated Michelin´s with the two rubber type compound are providing an amazing grip level and are IMHO the best tires besides the new N1 from the 997...
can´t really follow him with that comment...

"The dampers on the car are too soft, not stiff enough for performance driving"

...well........i think i have absolutely NO words for this one - he´s probably the first person complaining about the GT´s suspension beeing too soft and this after waaaaaay more than 100.000km of testing on the NS - and he´s complaining that it´s too soft on his F1 track......sorry.... :roll:
the suspension is useable for daily driving but definitely NOT a softie - besides there´s a race setup available at the EZW but not for sale right now...
with this suspension the lap time at NS will decrease by quite some seconds but setup wouldn´t be driveable for everyone - and this has been one of the main intentions of the testing team, a supercar with supercar handling but also drivable for every day...

"Because the suspension is soft, the front feels heavy at corner entry"

"There is a lot of weight transfer"

"I wish the front turned into corners better, the tires need to be more performance oriented"

...again i don´t know if he´s speaking about a Carrera GT or a VW Phaeton....

"The car doesn't feel like it really has 612 horsepower under the hood"

"Comparing to the high cornering capabilities of the NSX-R [his car before he got the Carrera GT], you can definitely feel the heavy weight of this car"

....does it...??? hope he knows that the accl is on the right...
naaa, seriously - without any question - this 5.7ltr V10 is definitely the BEST engine i´ve ever driven - i could fill books on it - and i have driven lot´s of 500+hp cars in my life - i mean hey...it was designed to win LeMans and i think Porsches always did "quite well" there...

funny that he´s comparing the GT with a NSX-R - what a pitty that he can´t add a REAL supercar comming from "his" region...
AGAIN, this is NOT NOT NOT about blaming japaneese engineering, i´m among the first to honor them and especially asian car engineers are among the best worldwide due to their mentality to aspire the best, but a NSX - regardeless if -R or -RS or -RRSS (whatever), can´t be compared with a car like the GT - i tend to say that this is maybe a bit too populistic...

"I can tell you for sure that the overall performance is excellent, but my first impression is that the car is very conservative"

...in the end i´m glad that he added this comment as well - i´m quite sure that i have clocked way more km´s than he did with the GT when he said that - the GT is 101% a car that needs getting used to, especially the PCCC and the "problem" is only the driving off, after that it´s just perfect and i´m sure he´ll realize that as well after some hundreds of km´s....

last thing i want to add here is that IMHO ppl shouldn´t "believe" that much into such TV presentations and especially the times driven there - maybe it´s nice to watch them drift around the track with their exotic cars and it´s surly nice and interesting too watch these cars that many of us won´t ever see for real but for me this is more show(business) than real concentration on true performance and lap times like e.g. "Sport Auto" does...

[lakatu]

Excellent, excellent response st-anger. I don’t know how you could have answered all those questions any better. I too was surprised it took so long for some to ask these questions.

What is your opinion of the NSX. I remember when it first came out everyone thought it was the greatest handling car ever. Since then I have seen several videos of the NSX being pushed hard and I can’t see what people where referring to. It seems to have too much body roll and the car doesn’t seem that well balance. I’ve never driven one so can’t really comment for sure but I am not that impressed from what I have seen.

[J-San]

Originally Posted by st-anger Originally Posted by SamuraiGti The chief editor of Best Motoring (a famous japanese video show about cars), Motoharu Kurosawa, best known as "Gan-San", a 65-years old ex-pilot and racing legend in Japan, has recently bought a Carrera GT. In a recent Best Motoring International issue, he drove the Carrera GT for the first time, in Suzuka circuit, and he seemed somewhat disappointed. He said things like: "The car feels a bit heavy" "The tires aren't responsive to weight transfer" "The dampers on the car are too soft, not stiff enough for performance driving" "Because the suspension is soft, the front feels heavy at corner entry" "There is a lot of weight transfer" "I wish the front turned into corners better, the tires need to be more performance oriented" "The car doesn't feel like it really has 612 horsepower under the hood" "Comparing to the high cornering capabilities of the NSX-R [his car before he got the Carrera GT], you can definitely feel the heavy weight of this car" "It feels heavier than the catalogue 1300 kg" "I can tell you for sure that the overall performance is excellent, but my first impression is that the car is very conservative" Since you've already driven the CGT by yourself too, I would like you to comment the affirmations of Mr. Kurosawa. ...i was waiting for someone asking these questions since i´ve seen the vid - and i´ve seen it many many many times as i´ve studied it after he droped the lines u listed above... i don´t know that much about BM and i can only speak about the Porsche comparisons as i´ve only seen them and the one thing - and many here agreed with that opinion - i noticed is a very very strong patriotism on japanese cars like NSX or Skyline - can´t remember exactely but there´re some comparisons where japanese cars are actually faster than other one´s comming from europe and many times i found it hard to believe - but well.... it didn´t really bother me untill i saw the GT test drive with this Gan-San guy - to be honest i don´t know nothing about his motorsport background or how good he really is behind the wheel - to drive a modern car ( even when it has 500+hp ) fast around a F1-style race track for the camera is nothing special for me personally as most of the BM drivers are showcar drivers - again, maybe they can do better but looking at the vids, seeing accl. points, braking points, different lines and the concentration they´re driving with - well, in the end i think it´s more about entertainment than to really look inside the performance, better said lap times - but that´s just my personal opinion although i have to add that i´m not the "worst" driver myself and i think i can judge that kinda good if someone really knows what he´s doing behind the wheel... so all the points of criticism are wiped off with three digit numbers: 7:32 and this is just the HvS time and we already know that WR can do a 7:2xmin... a car that is capable to clock such a time on the most demanding track, the Nürburgring Nordschleife, can´t be that bad, because when u have a car as described by Gan-San u´ll end up dead trying to clock such times... this time is only a number and many many of u who haven´t been at NS themselves will think that this is nothing really special - clocking such times with a 600+ hp car - but regardeless how good the driver is - for times below 7:30 u simply need a PERFECT car and the GT is a perfect car... "the car feels a bit heavy" - don´t know any situation where i thought that the GT felt heavy, more the other way round handling is very much comparable with a GT3 Cup car... "The tires aren't responsive to weight transfer" the N0 designated Michelin´s with the two rubber type compound are providing an amazing grip level and are IMHO the best tires besides the new N1 from the 997... can´t really follow him with that comment... "The dampers on the car are too soft, not stiff enough for performance driving" ...well........i think i have absolutely NO words for this one - he´s probably the first person complaining about the GT´s suspension beeing too soft and this after waaaaaay more than 100.000km of testing on the NS - and he´s complaining that it´s too soft on his F1 track......sorry.... :roll: the suspension is useable for daily driving but definitely NOT a softie - besides there´s a race setup available at the EZW but not for sale right now... with this suspension the lap time at NS will decrease by quite some seconds but setup wouldn´t be driveable for everyone - and this has been one of the main intentions of the testing team, a supercar with supercar handling but also drivable for every day... "Because the suspension is soft, the front feels heavy at corner entry" "There is a lot of weight transfer" "I wish the front turned into corners better, the tires need to be more performance oriented" ...again i don´t know if he´s speaking about a Carrera GT or a VW Phaeton.... "The car doesn't feel like it really has 612 horsepower under the hood" "Comparing to the high cornering capabilities of the NSX-R [his car before he got the Carrera GT], you can definitely feel the heavy weight of this car" ....does it...??? hope he knows that the accl is on the right... naaa, seriously - without any question - this 5.7ltr V10 is definitely the BEST engine i´ve ever driven - i could fill books on it - and i have driven lot´s of 500+hp cars in my life - i mean hey...it was designed to win LeMans and i think Porsches always did "quite well" there... funny that he´s comparing the GT with a NSX-R - what a pitty that he can´t add a REAL supercar comming from "his" region... AGAIN, this is NOT NOT NOT about blaming japaneese engineering, i´m among the first to honor them and especially asian car engineers are among the best worldwide due to their mentality to aspire the best, but a NSX - regardeless if -R or -RS or -RRSS (whatever), can´t be compared with a car like the GT - i tend to say that this is maybe a bit too populistic... "I can tell you for sure that the overall performance is excellent, but my first impression is that the car is very conservative" ...in the end i´m glad that he added this comment as well - i´m quite sure that i have clocked way more km´s than he did with the GT when he said that - the GT is 101% a car that needs getting used to, especially the PCCC and the "problem" is only the driving off, after that it´s just perfect and i´m sure he´ll realize that as well after some hundreds of km´s.... last thing i want to add here is that IMHO ppl shouldn´t "believe" that much into such TV presentations and especially the times driven there - maybe it´s nice to watch them drift around the track with their exotic cars and it´s surly nice and interesting too watch these cars that many of us won´t ever see for real but for me this is more show(business) than real concentration on true performance and lap times like e.g. "Sport Auto" does...

I saw that video too and I was going to ask the same. About Mr. Kurosawa, I know he is one of the best pilots that ever appeared on Japan, he was champion in both GT cars, Formula 3000 and even bikes. He was also a test driver for Michelin. He is a long time fan of Porsche, he even clocked a 8:10 min lap in a Porsche 964 turbo some years ago.

About his oppinion on the CGT, it's a bit surprising, but perhaps we should see his oppinion as the oppinion of someone used to racing cars more than road cars. I'm sure he won't trash for no reason a car himself has bought. Remember that the car he drove was a press car and probably wasn't in great condition (mostly tires and dampers), and that can explain much.

In what concerns to the comparison to the NSX-R (lakatu, an NSX-R is very different from a standard NSX, a standard NSX is too soft for the track and doesn't handle that good), it's understandable and I really believe his NSX-R is more agile and corners faster than the CGT, for one reason: his NSX-R uses the optional semi-slick "S tires" that make a HUGE difference on the track.

[mindgam3]

"The dampers on the car are too soft, not stiff enough for performance driving"

"Because the suspension is soft, the front feels heavy at corner entry"

"There is a lot of weight transfer"

"I wish the front turned into corners better, the tires need to be more performance oriented"

Generally if the front end is set up soft, the car will turn in a lot better as it'll have more grip.

I think the differences between "basic" fast car suspension and supercar suspension is huge. There is a difference between a car being set up soft and its ability to ride bumps and transitions.

Generally "lower budget" supercars seem superstiff and handle well but do not actually ride very well. So they could have super stiff damping yet soft suspension so roll alot, or vice versa so flabby and bouncy when riding bumps but feel stiff.

Supercar/race car suspension will be set up stiff yet, but its dampers will work in a way to iron out the bumps so the car, although feeling soft from within the car will actually be gripping the road alot better.

Dont know if i've explained myself very well; I dont doubt the NSX's ability but I refuse to believe that it rides and handles better than a CGT.... or any of the porker range for tht matter... IMHO i think the reviewer needs a kick up the arse

[st-anger]

Originally Posted by lakatu Excellent, excellent response st-anger. I don’t know how you could have answered all those questions any better. I too was surprised it took so long for some to ask these questions. What is your opinion of the NSX. I remember when it first came out everyone thought it was the greatest handling car ever. Since then I have seen several videos of the NSX being pushed hard and I can’t see what people where referring to. It seems to have too much body roll and the car doesn’t seem that well balance. I’ve never driven one so can’t really comment for sure but I am not that impressed from what I have seen.

...well just added some thoughts from the driver´s side in general but as u know the GT is my "one and only" and i kinda know it by heart so for me personally it´s always been clear that these comments couldn´t be right but i´m not the one saying right after seeing it: "...what he (gan-san) said is BS and simply not true...bla bla bla..."

...everyone´s free to judge on his own but i think gan san and myself are till now the only one´s who´ve driven the GT in here at JW and i thought i could take some more time than usual to put some facts into the right light because the GT isn´t that bad...

...hmmm when he´s used to drive racecars he should be very very familiar with the GT as it´s more a racecar than many many of the other so called supercars, as mentioned before i also know how a racecar handles and drives and there´s not a that big gap between them...
and i agree with u j-san that the press cars do not handle as good as the production version and that the press pool cars are carrying yround quite some more weight !

...can´t comment on the NSX or -R in detail but when the -R is equipped with semi slicks it is definitely within reach that it´s equally good in some conering conditions on smooth pavement - last weekend i drove a prepared GT3 CS with a slightely tuned engine, P Zero Corsas, short shift, Porsche Motorsport steering and a specially developed suspension setup for over 20.000€ !!! and it handled definitely as good as a GT which is also designed with a bit of remaining comfort...

a genius car this CS - hope that i´ll be able to share a bit more information with u guys in PC some time...

[J-San]

Another strange fact that makes me believe that the CGT driven by Gan-San wasn't in great shape is that the CGT was only 1 second faster than the Ferrari F50 when Gan-San drove it for the first time in 1998, and 2 seconds slower than a F50 driven by Gan-San in Best Motoring's Super Battle 2000 (though the course layout is slightly different).

Also, Mr. Gan had very good impression of other Porsche cars, like the 996 GT3 (mk2), 997 Carrera S, 964 RS and 993 GT2 (strangely or maybe not, he didn't like the 996 Turbo, he said it was way too soft compared to the old, air-cooled Porsches), and he loved some other cars conceptually similar to the CGT, as the F50 and F40. He likes light, race-bred cars, and the CGT fits that category. I don't think Gan-San or Best Motoring is biased towards japanese cars, much on the contrary. Sometimes BM videos leave that impression because there are a few details we don't notice.

I'm looking forward for his next review on the CGT. I'm sure his oppinion will be more positive when he has drove more Km on his own car.

[lakatu]

J-San I agree with you the NSX-R is a much better handling car than the NSX with it’s lower weight and track tuned suspension. I wasn’t referring to Gan-san’s comments comparing the CGT to the NSX-R.

My comments or question really was about the standard NSX because when the NSX came out in the early 90’s magazine articles seemed to indicate that it was much better handling a car than either the 964 Turbo or the Ferrari 348. Even after the 993 and 355 came out many people still felt the NSX was the better handling car, and well I just don’t see it.

The NSX appears way to soft especially up front, has too much roll and the low polar moment of inertia combined with the soft suspension and heavy steering means that once the rear starts to break lose it is difficult to catch the slide. In short I am not really that impressed with the standard NSX but was wondering what others thought of it. To me the NSX was over hyped and never the treat that the automotive press made it out to be for either Porsche or Ferrari.

Really interesting about the GT3 CS. I can’t wait to hear more st-anger. So was the balance and turn in as good as the mid engined CGT? Love the look of the RS spoiler on a non white car. I really prefer the RS spoiler to any of the other versions of GT3 spoilers that Porsche has put on the 996 GT3. I keep hoping that Porsche will put that spoiler on the 997 GT3 but based on spy photos it doesn’t look like I will get my wish.

Really interested in the car as the RS isn’t available in the U.S. and it would be nice to know that there are other alternatives. What suspension pieces do you get for that kind of money and how is it different than the standard GT3 suspension? Did you prefer the car to the GT3 RS? I would guess so since it handled as well as a CGT? Last question did you drive the CS on the street and if so how did the car perform on street roads? I can’t imagine a 911 set up to handle as well as a CGT would handle the imperfections of a normal road.