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Old 12-11-2007, 03:12 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by pagani View Post
Yes it has belance not understeer.
If thats what you call balance hehe... its understeering in every turn.
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:27 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by nthfinity View Post
If thats what you call balance hehe... its understeering in every turn.
That is balance.
Anyway who cares it still on the fastest streetcars round a track.
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:22 PM   #33
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NA is the way to go for endurance orientated racing. Just look at the GT cars in LeMans are stock cars in NASCAR (now there's 800 NA rwhp for you).

However, turbo applications can be made to work for endurance. Dakar is a great example. However, Dakar is so endurance oriented that insane horsepower isn't really the goal. The VW race toureg 2's only make 285 bhp. I should mention though, that they also make a whopping 443 lb-ft of torque that makes the power band nice and broad.

The best way to beat turbo lag is to just start with an engine that is suitable to begin with. By that I mean a V8! hehe. I've always been fond of turbo V6 applications.
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:39 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by pagani View Post
You are spot on.
It also helps on turbo engine to stroke it to bigger displacement.
A well setup/build turbo engine can just be as good as any na engine.
Setup doesnt take away the results of heat soak.

Thats the point here - turbo/supercharged street cars suffer on road rcae courses - high speed/aggressive street driving is nothing like hot lapping a road race course... nothing at all.

On the street there is plenty of time to "cool" the engine - but not so on a track

Bring your Mines to Texas - and 5 laps later it will be as anemic and asthmatic as a Hoda Civic Hybrid
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:46 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by RC45 View Post
Setup doesnt take away the results of heat soak.

Thats the point here - turbo/supercharged street cars suffer on road rcae courses - high speed/aggressive street driving is nothing like hot lapping a road race course... nothing at all.

On the street there is plenty of time to "cool" the engine - but not so on a track

Bring your Mines to Texas - and 5 laps later it will be as anemic and asthmatic as a Hoda Civic Hybrid
Of course turbo cars heat soak in hot weather turbocars need colder to work properly.
The mines skyline gtr has been in the us.
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:53 PM   #36
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All engines operate more efficiently in the cold. It's not just a matter of denser air with more oxygen, but the lower temperature plainly allows for better thermodynamic efficiency thanks to the second law. Not overheating is a plus too.
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Old 12-11-2007, 08:17 PM   #37
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Of course turbo cars heat soak in hot weather turbocars need colder to work properly.
The mines skyline gtr has been in the us.
And thats the point. If youve every hot lapped a car in the summer in a place in the southern US... Well as the driver you'll be baking, just think what the car does. That turbo will heat soak, like the drag cars that have metal plennums, its only a matter of time. FI is generally not used for endurance racing. Mind you they are good fun, but if it could be done without FI for the same weight and cost believe me they would. Pauls point here is with the vette it can. It doesnt take away from the GTR.. The gtr can't, at least to my knowledge, put down 800 bhp na. That vette easily can, its been done by everyone and their brother so to speak.

For all out performance at or near sea level on a road race course for more then a few laps NA>FI for identical setups.
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Old 12-12-2007, 01:35 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by pagani View Post
Of course turbo cars heat soak in hot weather turbocars need colder to work properly.
The mines skyline gtr has been in the us.
Hehe - bring on the cold.. NA I have 660bhp corrected to standard temperature and pressure... thats about 750bhp in cool winter air - and still no heat soak issues ;P
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Old 12-12-2007, 09:24 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by RC45 View Post
Hehe - bring on the cold.. NA I have 660bhp corrected to standard temperature and pressure... thats about 750bhp in cool winter air - and still no heat soak issues ;P
Ok i got the point.
But a turbo engine will make lots of power whit cold denser air.
More than a na engine.

Last edited by pagani; 12-12-2007 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 12-12-2007, 11:52 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by pagani View Post
Ok i got the point.
But a turbo engine will make lots of power whit cold denser air.
More than a na engine.
But will be heat soaked within a few laps.

I am not making this up - I promise you. Don't you think if I wanted to have an "800rwhp" car I would have just built one using a super charged/turbo charged LS7 instead of an instead of a 580rwhp NA one? But such a car woul dhave been faced with way more issues hot lapping than I am already facing.

When you ask a tuning shop to help build you a 200mph race/street car, they seldom recommend a forced induction setup.

I am not sure if many folks understand the consept we are discussing - it is where the engine assembly soaks up all the heat produced and the intake charge, even though its been "intercooled" is still relatively warm and combined with the other hear of the boosted engine causes the gasoline to pre-ignite in the cylinders...

the knocking will destroy your motor, so the car;s computer pulls timing and slows the point of ignition - which significantly reduces the engine power.

This process saves the motor but makes the car slow... this is why boosted cars go out for a few laps of fun, then come in to the pits and cool down for long time before heading out again.

It can help to run very high octane race gasoline, but then the car is by definition no longer a street car.

BTW, have you ever seen in the magazine tests how Hennessey always packs his cars engine bays with bags of ice between runs?

Thats right - to reduce the heat soak and aid cooling between runs so he can "make the powaaaaa" - because in the real world a Venom Viper is literally breathless after 5 laps.

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Old 12-12-2007, 12:20 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by RC45 View Post
But will be heat soaked within a few laps.

I am not making this up - I promise you. Don't you think if I wanted to have an "800rwhp" car I would have just built one using a super charged/turbo charged LS7 instead of an instead of a 580rwhp NA one? But such a car woul dhave been faced with way more issues hot lapping than I am already facing.

When you ask a tuning shop to help build you a 200mph race/street car, they seldom recommend a forced induction setup.

I am not sure if many folks understand the consept we are discussing - it is where the engine assembly soaks up all the heat produced and the intake charge, even though its been "intercooled" is still relatively warm and combined with the other hear of the boosted engine causes the gasoline to pre-ignite in the cylinders...

the knocking will destroy your motor, so the car;s computer pulls timing and slows the point of ignition - which significantly reduces the engine power.

This process saves the motor but makes the car slow... this is why boosted cars go out for a few laps of fun, then come in to the pits and cool down for long time before heading out again.

It can help to run very high octane race gasoline, but then the car is by definition no longer a street car.

BTW, have you ever seen in the magazine tests how Hennessey always packs his cars engine bays with bags of ice between runs?

Thats right - to reduce the heat soak and aid cooling between runs so he can "make the powaaaaa" - because in the real world a Venom Viper is literally breathless after 5 laps.

Maby a bottle of oxigen is needed on a turbo or supercharged car
Btw did you kown that you can get pump fuel here in europe that has the same rating as most racefuel 102 octane to be precise.
Some cars here run on race fuel because it helps whit detantion and they can run more boost at the dragstrip or road course.
And run a diffrent map when they drive on the street and on pump fuel.

Last edited by pagani; 12-12-2007 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 12-12-2007, 12:35 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by pagani View Post
Maby a bottle of oxigen is needed on a turbo or supercharged car
Btw did you kown that you can get pump fuel here in europe that has the same rating as most racefuel 102 octane to be precise.
Some cars here run on race fuel because it helps whit detantion and they can run more boost at the dragstrip or road course.
And run a diffrent map when they drive on the street and on pump fuel.
I know of many local gas stations that sell 110 (mon + ron)/2 , but that doesn't mean its a street car in street tune.

I'm sure if RC were to run 110, he'd be 750 hp in the texas sun
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Old 12-12-2007, 12:35 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by pagani View Post
Maby a bottle of oxigen is needed on a turbo or supercharged car
Btw did you kown that you can get pump fuel here in europe that has the same rating as most racefuel 102 octane to be precise.
Some cars here run on race fuel because it helps whit detantion and they can run more boost at the dragstrip or road course.
And run a diffrent map when they drive on the street and on pump fuel.
Fuel octane in Europe is calculated using a different method from the USA, so it is not comparable.

"In the United States, pump octane is an average of 2 ratings, research octane (RON) and motor octane (MON). If you look at any gas pump in the United States, you will see a yellow sticker that says "octane by R + M / 2" That is the basic formula for an average. These 2 numbers mean different things. You could make an analogy to that of a blood pressure reading (systolic and diastolic). Research Octane number is always higher than Motor Octane number.

In Europe, they only report the RON. You may hear people discussing that in Europe, the octane is higher. Well, that is not exactly true. You see, in Europe, you might find 96 octane at a local gas station. (wow 96, highest we have here is 94). Well, that 96 is equivalent to 92 here in the States."
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Old 12-12-2007, 12:49 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by pagani View Post
Maby a bottle of oxigen is needed on a turbo or supercharged car
Btw did you kown that you can get pump fuel here in europe that has the same rating as most racefuel 102 octane to be precise.
Some cars here run on race fuel because it helps whit detantion and they can run more boost at the dragstrip or road course.
And run a diffrent map when they drive on the street and on pump fuel.
Running "race gas on the track with a special tune just for the track" is again, not a street car - by the very definition provided.

I use 104 unleaded Sunoco when I track he car - as insurance against detonation in the extreme conditions of hot lapping - but the car is not "tuned for 104" - it is "tuned for common premium pump gas".

There is no guarentee that when you are out one day that the "special octane" fuel you will need is on sale where you might be - so again, of you paln on driving the car asa true street car on pump gas that can be driven anywhere, it should be tuned for and use common pump gas

Otherwise - its a race car

And to get back to the topic, an 800rwph boosted V8 produces HUGE amounts of heat - that has to go somewhere - on the street, you simply upshift and cruise for a few miles, car is cooler and you hit it again - thats not track driving, but can be insane fun on the streets - no argument there.
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Old 12-12-2007, 01:19 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by RC45 View Post
Running "race gas on the track with a special tune just for the track" is again, not a street car - by the very definition provided.

I use 104 unleaded Sunoco when I track he car - as insurance against detonation in the extreme conditions of hot lapping - but the car is not "tuned for 104" - it is "tuned for common premium pump gas".

There is no guarentee that when you are out one day that the "special octane" fuel you will need is on sale where you might be - so again, of you paln on driving the car asa true street car on pump gas that can be driven anywhere, it should be tuned for and use common pump gas

Otherwise - its a race car

And to get back to the topic, an 800rwph boosted V8 produces HUGE amounts of heat - that has to go somewhere - on the street, you simply upshift and cruise for a few miles, car is cooler and you hit it again - thats not track driving, but can be insane fun on the streets - no argument there.
Ok on a turbo car you play whit the boost levels.
Most turbocars run on the their full on a dyno when they drive it on track the run lower boost.
Their standalone ecu's on the market that have multiple maps.
Example you have map for normal pump fuel.
And you have a second map for racefuel.'
Example of such a ecu.
http://www.motec.com/products/ecu/control.htm
With this kind of ecu you have streetcar or racecar with one ecu.
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