GTR Review

[topgeartom]

Originally Posted by SFDMALEX Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by SFDMALEX Originally Posted by mindgam3 ^^ I agree... The whole point of computer game's is that they're fun - whether fun for you is a simulation or arcade is irrelevant. I prefer the games that are more realistic, whether they're driving or shoot em up but at the end of the day they've got to be fun - GT4 does this a lot better IMO. If i want fun and realism i'd save up a few hundred quid n get myself down to a track day, simple as that... Ahh mate. SIMULATION=SIMULATION It has nothing to do with fun. But computer games have everything to do with fun, just because its realistic, doesen't mean I have to go play it... Why would i want to play something that bored me to death? Driving a fast car is fun Playing on a simulator that isn't fun obviously isn't that good of a simulator as i can imagine driving a 360 GT car would be a hell of a lot of fun. A decent simulation needs to be realistic AND fun, GTR doesen't do it for me.... GT4 has enough realism and represents real world driving yet is actually fun to play. If they stuck GTR's physics engine in GT4 then that would be a great game, as it is, IMO GT4 wins hands down. As i said, if i wanted realism i'd go book a few hours in a proper performance car I am having tons of fun mate, and so are 1000s of other people. What many expect is to jump in and have "fun". Well it can not happen because this is a very accurate simulation. Trust me mate, you will not have fun if you jump in a prodrive 550 withouht any prior experiance, you will be spinning your tires for 50 laps straight. You have to practice and achieve the fun, I have the biggest grin on my face when Im lapping Spa with online, sweating like mad, working three pedals at a time, working that wheel like mad, running through that H box....but maybe thats because Ive been doing the sim thing for over 4 years now.......and trust me mate, I hated GPL when I first tried it, becuase I never had a challenge like that in my life prior to it.

call me daft, but that sounds extremely sad.

[styla21]

So i'm a tool now? Lets step outside...




...... unfortunate about the time zone thing, it's not the 2nd of April here i guess i missed your sarcasm. :roll:

[SFDMALEX]

Originally Posted by styla21 So i'm a tool now? Lets step outside... ...... unfortunate about the time zone thing, it's not the 2nd of April here i guess i missed your sarcasm. :roll:

Oh my Its April 1st here!

And for your info this is not the first time I did this to Tom.

[SFDMALEX]

Originally Posted by topgeartom Originally Posted by SFDMALEX Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by SFDMALEX Originally Posted by mindgam3 ^^ I agree... The whole point of computer game's is that they're fun - whether fun for you is a simulation or arcade is irrelevant. I prefer the games that are more realistic, whether they're driving or shoot em up but at the end of the day they've got to be fun - GT4 does this a lot better IMO. If i want fun and realism i'd save up a few hundred quid n get myself down to a track day, simple as that... Ahh mate. SIMULATION=SIMULATION It has nothing to do with fun. But computer games have everything to do with fun, just because its realistic, doesen't mean I have to go play it... Why would i want to play something that bored me to death? Driving a fast car is fun Playing on a simulator that isn't fun obviously isn't that good of a simulator as i can imagine driving a 360 GT car would be a hell of a lot of fun. A decent simulation needs to be realistic AND fun, GTR doesen't do it for me.... GT4 has enough realism and represents real world driving yet is actually fun to play. If they stuck GTR's physics engine in GT4 then that would be a great game, as it is, IMO GT4 wins hands down. As i said, if i wanted realism i'd go book a few hours in a proper performance car I am having tons of fun mate, and so are 1000s of other people. What many expect is to jump in and have "fun". Well it can not happen because this is a very accurate simulation. Trust me mate, you will not have fun if you jump in a prodrive 550 withouht any prior experiance, you will be spinning your tires for 50 laps straight. You have to practice and achieve the fun, I have the biggest grin on my face when Im lapping Spa with online, sweating like mad, working three pedals at a time, working that wheel like mad, running through that H box....but maybe thats because Ive been doing the sim thing for over 4 years now.......and trust me mate, I hated GPL when I first tried it, becuase I never had a challenge like that in my life prior to it. call me daft, but that sounds extremely sad.

How is that sad? GT4 is not sad? Now it really bugs me, care to elaborate how its sad?

[topgeartom]

From the description it sounded like you spend every single minute of your free time sitting at the computer playing games. And you yourself said "over 4 years" it just seemed like you took it all rather serious. I'm done arguing anyway, im off to bed here, as we run in GMT, and therefore it is 3:00 2nd April morning.

[SFDMALEX]

Originally Posted by topgeartom From the description it sounded like you spend every single minute of your free time sitting at the computer playing games. And you yourself said "over 4 years" it just seemed like you took it all rather serious. I'm done arguing anyway, im off to bed here, as we run in GMT, and therefore it is 3:00 2nd April morning.

Ahh what? I wish mate I wish. I spent 3hours a week max racing or just gaming in general.

And I sad I've been sim racing for 4 years now, what does that have to do with anything?

And whos arguing? Im not arguing. Are you?

[mindgam3]

Originally Posted by SFDMALEX I am having tons of fun mate, and so are 1000s of other people. What many expect is to jump in and have "fun". Well it can not happen because this is a very accurate simulation. Trust me mate, you will not have fun if you jump in a prodrive 550 withouht any prior experiance, you will be spinning your tires for 50 laps straight. You have to practice and achieve the fun, I have the biggest grin on my face when Im lapping Spa with online, sweating like mad, working three pedals at a time, working that wheel like mad, running through that H box....but maybe thats because Ive been doing the sim thing for over 4 years now.......and trust me mate, I hated GPL when I first tried it, becuase I never had a challenge like that in my life prior to it.

I know what driving fast on a racetrack feels like. You'll never get that experience from a computer.... not for another 20 years at least

I can assure you now, that stepping into a prodrive 550, any decent driver would be able to drive it - not neccesarily at race pace, but i can assure you now, driving a pro gt car at any speed would be a million times more fun than ANY computer "simulation".

At the end of the day, hardcore sim fans don't group the likes of GTR and GT4 together. I do, because they're both computer games, they're both racing games and they're both a hell of a lot different from being in a real car and driving it..... You can't learn any more from GTR than you can from GT4 in terms of relating to real life driving....

So if they're both just games, and far far different from real life.... then how do you judge how good each game is compared to each other? For me, its the fun factor, and IMO GT4 wins hands down....

[SFDMALEX]

You know whats the problem with people like you? You know absolutly nothing about structure of GTR, you have no idea how the physics model that it is build around, you know nothing about it period. All you did was install it, try for for a few seconds, realize that your rubbish at it, and give up. You can not expect to sit down and drive like a pro, hell if you didnt have fun with GTR, I want to see you try GPL, now you'd probably say its the most unrealstic thing out there...Now it does not take a genious to figure out that driving the thing in real life is much more fun then driving one in a simulator.

Any decent driver can drive a 600bhp race car? That has to be the funiest thing I have ever heard, that statement is an insult to any race car driver out there. A 600bhp race car, with slicks, any decent driver car drive that? Ok.

And again you got it all wrong. GT4 is a computer GAME. GTR is a computer SIMULATOR. If you say that you cant learn more from GTR then from GT4 then again your proving how misinformed, or just not informed at all you are.

HOw do I compare which is better? Well it depends what you are talking about. If you are talking about which is the better game, then the better game is GT4, because its actually a game, if you are talking about simulators then I will take GTR.

Lastly why do you keep brining up the fun thing? Forget about fun, for different people fun is a different thing. For you its games for me its sims.

I will no longer reply in this thread unless someone wants to have an intelligent conversation about the differnt sims physics engines etc, cause I dont have the time to waist to prove things to people who do not even bother researching the subject they are talking about.

[styla21]

Sfdmalex, i have limited experience with simulators and racing games; but if you're the guy to talk to then i have a couple of questions. I understand theres a difference between a game, and a simulator. I'd like to buy a simulator, and enjoy playing it. Is there a steep learning curve? Which would you recommend? What sort of equipment do you need? Can it be fun (rather than pure frustration), as a rookie?

[SFDMALEX]

Originally Posted by styla21 Sfdmalex, i have limited experience with simulators and racing games; but if you're the guy to talk to then i have a couple of questions. I understand theres a difference between a game, and a simulator. I'd like to buy a simulator, and enjoy playing it. Is there a steep learning curve? Which would you recommend? What sort of equipment do you need? Can it be fun (rather than pure frustration), as a rookie?

Nice to see someone with the right approach

When I first started off with sims, like GPL at first I found it very frustrating, very hard. But when I finally got a hang of it, its an unbeatble feeling. At first it will be very hard, that is the bottom line, but if you are willing to learn it will not take that long to become competative, to be very fast takes a lot of practice.

To start off again I will recomend GTR because in GTR you can enable driving AIDS such as ABS and Traction control. At first you drive with those and then when you become more cofrfatble you switch them off and learn how to modulate the throttle etc, when you are done with that take off ABS and learn how to brake...

It will take a lot more technical knoledge to set up the car(if you want your own custom crafted setup) and it will take some time to learn how the telemtry system works etc, its not that hard actually, you have tons of graphs which you have to learn how to read so you can see what the car is doing on the track and setup the car accordingly.

As far as equipment, all you need is a very good wheel pedal set. I recomend the MoMo Racing by Logitech, or if you have more money go for the Logitech Driving Force Pro, its a PS2 wheel but it works on PC flawlesy.


Bottom line, it is not easy, but if you are driven and are willing to go through it you will be very satisfied and its the best expriance you will have, unless you can drive the real thing, which sim strive to be to as close as possible.

Originally Posted by SFDMALEX Any decent driver can drive a 600bhp race car? That has to be the funiest thing I have ever heard, that statement is an insult to any race car driver out there. A 600bhp race car, with slicks, any decent driver car drive that? Ok.

come on man, any decent driver could drive a 600bhp race car.. but its highly likely that if they tried to drive it fast then they would stick it in the armco

[mindgam3]

Originally Posted by Dan\/6 Originally Posted by SFDMALEX Any decent driver can drive a 600bhp race car? That has to be the funiest thing I have ever heard, that statement is an insult to any race car driver out there. A 600bhp race car, with slicks, any decent driver car drive that? Ok. come on man, any decent driver could drive a 600bhp race car.. but its highly likely that if they tried to drive it fast then they would stick it in the armco

exactly

And they may be different genres of games; simulator and more arcade, but at the end of the day they're both GAMES.

If you read reviews of GTR and GT4 in genuine car magazines such as CAR and EVO who happen to test all the real supercars, they lump them all in the same group.

Both of them are way too unrealistic to be classed as a pure simulator - they're both games. The physics model in GTR may be better than GT4 in terms of realism, but its still unrealistic.... PC's aren't good enough yet to make a very accurate physics model for GAMES.

A simulator is the kind of thing the US government spends millions on to train their astraunauts and pilots, where by they get trained on it and then immediately can fly the actual fighters/choppers etc.... not something you can run on your PC

A proper simulator enables you to go from the virtual to the real with little in the way of differences. I don't think you can go from GTR to a 600bhp race car and pull off the same kind of lap times - no way....

[topgeartom]

SO maybe i dont know much about the game model,a dn the physics mapping used, but then, who does? realistically what percentage of buyers are going to know exactly how the game works, and has all the right equipment to play it (in order to actually stop being crap at it)??? I dont think it will be anywhere near over 1/4. So thats a really dam low amount of people who will enjoy the game - and dont give me any of that simulator shit, maybe it is billed as a simulator, but thats just a sub-genre, its a fucking Game, outright. So if such a low amount of people enjoy the game, then that surely makes it one of the very worst games in a long while. We buy games to enjoy them. They are entertainment, they are meant to make us feel good and happy, and if you cant get that feeling straight away from a game - then surely it has failed in its only purpose!

[SFDMALEX]

Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by Dan\/6 Originally Posted by SFDMALEX Any decent driver can drive a 600bhp race car? That has to be the funiest thing I have ever heard, that statement is an insult to any race car driver out there. A 600bhp race car, with slicks, any decent driver car drive that? Ok. come on man, any decent driver could drive a 600bhp race car.. but its highly likely that if they tried to drive it fast then they would stick it in the armco exactly And they may be different genres of games; simulator and more arcade, but at the end of the day they're both GAMES. If you read reviews of GTR and GT4 in genuine car magazines such as CAR and EVO who happen to test all the real supercars, they lump them all in the same group. Both of them are way too unrealistic to be classed as a pure simulator - they're both games. The physics model in GTR may be better than GT4 in terms of realism, but its still unrealistic.... PC's aren't good enough yet to make a very accurate physics model for GAMES. A simulator is the kind of thing the US government spends millions on to train their astraunauts and pilots, where by they get trained on it and then immediately can fly the actual fighters/choppers etc.... not something you can run on your PC A proper simulator enables you to go from the virtual to the real with little in the way of differences. I don't think you can go from GTR to a 600bhp race car and pull off the same kind of lap times - no way....

Is that why Fabio Babini did not have any problems jumping into a GTR simulator and setting the same lap times as he does in real life? Is that the reason why half the drivers in FIA GT championship didnt have problems jumping in and driving right away?

If you say that computers are not capable if simulating a proper lets say Car model then you again are proving how misinformed or straight up not informed you are.

Do your reaserch mate. Did you know that the Swedish airforce uses Falcon 4 for their simulators? I guess not. Didnt know that did you? A contries airforce uses a publicaly availible simulator to train their pilots.
Do you know what is the only difference between my falcon 4 installtion and the Swedish Airforce one? They have an actuall cockpit resembling the aircraft with all the controll panels at their hands, were I have to use the keyboard as my controll panel.

Do your reaserch.

I flew one of those "million dollar" simulators here in Canada. Apart from sitting in actual cockpit its no different then lets say LOMAC. My god lomac had a better model.

Did you ever hear of PS1? Well let me tell you, ITS A DOS based 737 simulator. Costs about 300$, install it on a 233 and fly. It simulates 90% of the systems in the 737, the other 10% which are not simualted are the coffee maker systems on board. Did you know thats what they use to train pilots? I guess not.

Ever heard of Ian Bell? He's the head honcho of Simbin, jumped out of GTR straight into a Viper race car, drove around and a very good pace and said that the only difference is the fact that you are afraid of crashing since you can die(something sims can never simulate) and simply the physical vibrations from the car. Period, many said it over thousands of time. I know a guy who tracks his car everyweekend and he uses GTR/GPL to practice his driving skills.

I have a friend who's 16. In the States, if you want I can actually dig up a thread that he started on the subject. Well he's 16 and he just bought an 80s Quattro, the guy never rallied his car in his life, few weeks ago he went to his first little rally event and was second fastest. All his prior experiance was Richard Burns Rally, he wrote a whole thread saying how rbr helped him.


Anything else?

The only things computer are not capable of simulating is fear. Fear of death and proper G force simulating. Period.

Mindgam3 have you even looked at the motec telemetry in GTR? Did you know that that telemetry is exatctly the same thing as all the teams in FIA GT have in their laptops? Everbothered to look what type of telemetry data GTR is logging? I guess not. Just tell me what GTR doesnt simulate. Well it doesnt simulate air density and its effect on engine combustion, thats about it. But thats just nitpicking.

So if you want to continue talking then do your reasrch because you know absolutly nothing and are trying to prove something that you have no idea about. Your entire post was a bunch of silly assumptions. Such as the airforce simulators. Proved you wrong there didnt I? Obviously you know nothing about computer simulators period. You have no idea of what computers(yes your PC) are capable of simulating. My father is an RF engineer, they have systems running on standart P4s simulating 13ghz military transmission systems. Naval acadimies run boat simulators on standart PCs. Did you ever know that Mircrosoft Flight Sim simulates different air densities etc which directly affects the flight model? Have you ever bothered to look at how Richard Burns Rally models the entire differential system? Did you know anything about the GTR tire model? How its simulated? How it is affected by road temprature in real time?

I can go on and on...

As Im going to say to Tom, if simulators dont make you happy then play the dumbed down for the masses race games. Man I love playing PGR2, its tons of fun, GT4 is tons of fun, but in no way are those simulators. No console today has the proccesing power to run a good physics model.

You got to have a really big ego if you expect to sit in a race car and drive it any pace at all withouht any practice.

[SFDMALEX]

Originally Posted by topgeartom SO maybe i dont know much about the game model,a dn the physics mapping used, but then, who does? realistically what percentage of buyers are going to know exactly how the game works, and has all the right equipment to play it (in order to actually stop being crap at it)??? I dont think it will be anywhere near over 1/4. So thats a really dam low amount of people who will enjoy the game - and dont give me any of that simulator shit, maybe it is billed as a simulator, but thats just a sub-genre, its a fucking Game, outright. So if such a low amount of people enjoy the game, then that surely makes it one of the very worst games in a long while. We buy games to enjoy them. They are entertainment, they are meant to make us feel good and happy, and if you cant get that feeling straight away from a game - then surely it has failed in its only purpose!

Have you ever read one of your posts? You sound like a complete retard.

Realisticly simulators dont sell because the level of diffculty is to high for regular people who just want a fun racing game, a fun flying game. Hence there are barely any out there. You can count them on your fingers, because GTR would sell a few thousand copies if it didnt have an arcade mode implanted which was only there so they could actually make some money off of the game.

You are the type who injoys GT4 and Crimson skies.

Ever tried flying a proper flight sim? Lomac, or Falcon4? Obviously you are going to say thats its rubbish because you have to read a whole manual on how to start the jet turbines spinning. And you have to read another manual about 200pages long on how to work the radar. You'll also have to read a book on basic flight controll, missle evasion...You'll have to read another book one weapons, their range, their speed, which to use on who and how, at what alltitude and what speed.

Or is this shit because you just cant jump in and fly? Fuck mang, jet fighets are a bunch of dumb idiots then, you just jump in the cockpit hit the take off button and start launching rockets at full rate hoping you can take someone down.


These are simulators. You tried GTR, and bam you suck, but you expected to sit in and drive off doing 2.10s at spa didnt you? I guess you can do that in real life to? Jump in the lister storm strap in and lap like crazy?


Bottom line, learn your shit and play your games. If simulators dont make you happy then they obviously arent for you, stick to your NFSU2 and GT4 while Ill stick to my LOMAC, GTR and GPL, along with that moon landing dos based simulator I have.