motor

HeilSvenska · 06-17-2004, 06:54 PM

So what? the guy's funny.

RC45 · 06-17-2004, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by HeilSvenska

So what? the guy's funny.

... not unlike Micheal Moore... your point?

Vansquish · 06-17-2004, 07:50 PM

Wow...hehe...this is the reason I try not to get embroiled in debates like this...people have such deeply-seated beliefs that nothing is likely to sway either side.

All the same, here are my two cents....

A standard Corvette wouldn't stand much of a chance against a 996 Turbo, in a straight line or otherwise...however, if you choose to match up the "apples" in both cases, you end up with the Z06 and the 911 Turbo...each as the top of the realistic range (of course you could call in the GT2 or the GT3, but for everyday useability, it has to be the TT). The Z06 would give the TT a run for its money in a straight line, depending on the driver, it might even outrun it. On a racetrack the positions would likely be reversed, the 996 TT is an extremely rapid car, I don't think that anyone on this site could argue against that, but the Z06 is known for having extremely high handling tolerances...it has the torque and torque curve to help it out of corners at least as much as the 4wd system in the TT. The lowest skidpad number for the Z06 that I've seen was on a previous generation (385bhp) version and that was a paltry 0.97g, more recently I've seen as high as 1.01. The TT tends to hover between 0.92 and 0.96g and I've not seen higher. The TT is to me still the more desirable car, better-finished, better resale value, nicer interior trimmings, a bit more subtle, and certainly more capable across a winding mountain road thanks to the 4wd system.

The Vette would probably outdo it at a trackand it will certainly return better fuel economy numbers thanks to its insane gearing. The cars are built to fit different niches, realize it, come to terms with it. It's not really worth arguing over, as nobody is going to win!

Drive4Ever · 06-17-2004, 08:33 PM

IMO, all the american cars for made for straight

i drive an import myself 8) since i'm asian. u know gotta support my own people

topgeartom · 06-17-2004, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by RC45

I mean you are the one claiming "all" American cars suck...

There you go again.

If you read my posts i am saying that the vast majority off american cars are a little dodgy when it comes to the twisty stuff.

I am also saying that the newer american cars are much better.

Oh, and was there any need for the "cockcheese" you bellwart.

Seriously though, I am not trying to launch an all out war, I am just giving MY opinions and views.

Cheers
Tom

RC45 · 06-17-2004, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by topgeartom

Originally Posted by RC45

I mean you are the one claiming "all" American cars suck...

There you go again.

If you read my posts i am saying that the vast majority off american cars are a little dodgy when it comes to the twisty stuff.

I am also saying that the newer american cars are much better.

Oh, and was there any need for the "cockcheese" you bellwart.

Seriously though, I am not trying to launch an all out war, I am just giving MY opinions and views.

Cheers
Tom

Tosser...

...all this and I aint even a yank...

graywolf624 · 06-17-2004, 09:44 PM

cream in Europe, and then from Asia how do you think it will come out....?

Id argue at the moment america has asia beat hands down in the handling market. Almost all their rwd sports cars have been discontinued. I dont exactly see an mr2 taking a corvette(stock for stock) on the track. The supras long gone. The skyline isnt available here..

The wrx and evo would not beat a zo6 on the track (or even come close for that matter). The nsx, maybe, but I doubt it. The rx8 is no match for the vette.

What else is there?

And yet again.. how much does a 911 turbo cost.. now how much is the zo6.. yeah... theres a fair comparison.

The closest car I can think of in the world to the zo6 in price versus overall performance(including turns) is bmws m cars.

American well handling cars (that are currently in production): cts-v, gto(its engine is american, its setup has been modified slightly.. its debatable), vette, viper.

cars in the pipeline of america that are touted to handle and are rwd.. Solstice, sts-v.. and some other stuff.. gms global rwd platform is going to have some interesting reprocussions here. You would be suprised at how much the track culture has taken off in america as well. The open track days sell out most of the time.

graywolf624 · 06-17-2004, 09:55 PM

Also I want to explain something to you guys. I mentioned about stiff and the corvette and camaro.. and track handling versus street handling.

I came across a good discussion of this in terms of camaros recently. For those who don't know, camaros have a stick axle, but one of the best from a design standpoint. So many of you go, its got a solid rear axle.. not an independent.. it sucks.. Well for the street.. yes.. for the track, theres little difference. You see the big difference between the two is that the stick has more unsprung weight and the movement of one side of the axle obviously effects the other side. That being said, the vast majority of this problem is related to driving over irregular road surfaces. Thus the difference between the two isn't that big on a smooth race track.

The same thing with spring rates.. The stiffer the spring the less it follows the path of the road. But the stiffer the less body roll. Thus a race car would not keep up with a decent road car on a bumpy back road.

graywolf624 · 06-17-2004, 10:50 PM

and dont bring in $$$$ cuz you have to play with the cards you got dude, so make your top ten handling American car in stock form......any ten cars you feel can blow the best from Europe and Asia away.......

money is important. the enzo would blow away anything from anywhere.. I mean.. enzo, mclearn f1, f40.. isnt a fair comparison.. americans dont sell cars anywhere near those prices.

Im concerned with handling per money and that you can still buy it new.. we can throw in the skyline.. but not a clue what its price is.

Top america has to offer in history: (in no particular order)
corvette Z06
Dodge Viper GTS
CTS-V
Ford GT
Pontiac Firehawk (the year with the lt4, not the pussy newer model)
89 Turbo transam w/ 1LE suspension pack
Ford SVT Cobra Mustang R
Saleen S7
Mosler MT900
Shelby Series 1

Not a car in that list is under .90 g skidpad. Note I didnt list any tuned cars.. For instance the lightenfelder vette or the ZL1 Camaro. All cars in this list are made by a division of the manufacturer and not an outside company..

Vansquish · 06-17-2004, 11:01 PM

You seem to have forgotten the 350Z and the Infinity G35 sedan and coupe...they were deemed better than their BMW competitors as far as performance goes. TVR, if they imported vehicles to the US and Noble are the only manufacturers which have cars in production right now that could compete on a price and performance basis with the Corvettes while also maintaining the exotic nature of the sector. BMW sort of falls down in that department, they're very nice, but not all that special-feeling.

graywolf624 · 06-17-2004, 11:09 PM

You seem to have forgotten the 350Z and the Infinity G35 sedan and coupe...they were deemed better than their BMW competitors as far as performance goes.

They dont really compete in terms of performance with the Z06.. They are nice though.

TVR, if they imported vehicles to the US and Noble are the only manufacturers which have cars in production right now that could compete on a price and performance basis with the Corvettes while also maintaining the exotic nature of the sector

I definitly agree.

hemi_fan · 06-17-2004, 11:14 PM

I just remembered another good handling car that you all might not know of... The Lincoln LS. It was compared to one of the BMW classes, i dont remember which one. It couldve been the 5 or 3 series, i think it was the 3, but not sure... Anyway, it outhandled it without a problem. Theres an american car that didnt really have performance in mind when it was built and can still handle pretty darn good.

graywolf624 · 06-17-2004, 11:43 PM

We can mix in a lot of factors, to even it out, but if we take the best, its not even a competition IMO.....

Id argue that no one makes cars as good as the italians.. But that still kinda ventures off the "America doesnt make curve handlers" statement.

Id take an enzo over anything, but Im also a tifosi, so go figure.

graywolf624 · 06-17-2004, 11:58 PM

for reliability

If you can afford a ferrari, you can afford the full time mechanic to fix it when it breaks.. lol.

T-Bird · 06-17-2004, 11:59 PM

I just find it funny that most of the people that say American cars can't handle have never been in one to begin with. Some of you have probably never seen the cars on that list Graywolf made in person. Atleast we get most of the rest of the world's cars. (atleast the good ones

) Granted most american cars aren't made for track days but they can handle the road around the US just fine they don't need to be driving around the swiss alps or something going around hairpins one after the other we don't have too much of that around these parts of the world. You have to remember that the cars are somewhat built to handle the average conditions of their target market and not too many people are taking their Ford Taurus or Chevy Impala racing through the backroads.