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Old 04-03-2004, 01:08 PM   #1
DJF1
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Default Want a Porsche? The time is NOW!

After posting my car pics at the what do you drive forum, I got a lot of compliments and it seems that a lot of people dream of the Porsche ownership. I'm not sure if what I'm going to say below is going to be news to anyone, but I thought I would anyway if that will help someone realize their dream.

I'm a certified Porsche nut and most of my savings have gone into my cars but I would not have it any other way. I'm I rich? Not by a long shot I'm afraid, given the fact that I'm such a gearhead when it comes to P cars, I came to a lot of realizations which have saved me a lot of money and I'm able to afford my dream.

1. Porsche cars are not necessarily expensive! In fact in my book there are two cars that are absolute bargains right now and won't be for too long I'm afraid.
A. The Porsche 951 or as widely known the 944 Turbo. I'm a previous owner of one and I can tell you that they are indeed wonderfull cars to have! Faily bulletproof but due to their age most are loaded with miles. Now that is nothing to shy away in a Porsche and the key here is to make sure you do a PPI ( pre purchase inspection) and ensure you have all the maintenance records. Chances are that cars with over 100Km on will have already their Turbos rebuilt or replaced which is a very good thing indeed. With prices hovering around 10 grand and if nothing else holding steady, its cheaper than a Toyota for people not being able to afford them.
B. The Porsche 964 or better the 911 produced from 1989 (Carrera 4 model) to 1994. The 964 for me right now is an absolute bargain! Looking at the prices of older 911's which sometimes surpass the 964 prices for me spending 20K USD on a 964 is an investment for the future as for sure their prices will go up in the future! Given that they are the first model breaching the old and the new, they incorporate modern technologies and a bulletproof engine which was carried largely unchanged to the 993 model. A lot of people desire the new model which is the 993 and agruably the best aircooled version of the 911 largely due to the new multiling rear suspension which has carried through the latest 911 and partly because of the ever beautifull curves that the 993 body has. So the 964 being the ungly duckling of the series has been overlooked but not for long I'm afraid. The fact is that they do not make them any more and due to the natural attrition they become less and less available which due to the laws of supply and demand, pricing will start increasing as it has in the older models. There was a "glitch" perceived with the early 964's up to 1991 which has to do with the new then design of sealing the wngine essentially withoput a rubber gasket. That led to engines leaking some oil and a lot of 'critics" advise to shy away from these model years. I think that these exact years are the ones that are a complete bargain! I have seen many 964's within these years and I can attest that while the clitch was there in a few cars it was not in all of them and certainly it was not a huge problem. However due to the fact that Porsche changed the design people's perception has remained which is great news for the smart buyer as one can snatch one easily for a price less than a Honda Civic! 964's are fantastic 911's indeed! 911 engines can go easy to 200000miles without a problem, clutches go up to 100K miles and in some instances over, gearboxes are equally bulletproof and they are very simple to maintain even by a home mechanic. With a 964 you will get a very fast Porsche and experience in full the 911 experience. It is extremely rewarding and a timeless classic.

2. The need for a good PPI. This is crucial! a 911 engine with good leakdown and compression figures is guaranteed to have a long life ahead. Don't shy away from high mile cars either! As a matter of fact at around 60-80K most 911's will need natural wear and tear replacements such as clutch, brakes, clutch slave cylinder, shocks etc. These are big ticket items, for example the clutch will set you back a couple of grand, so high mile cars most likely will have had those replaced already so the car has ways to go really! Like I said records and a good PPI are a must.

3. Stay away from the dealers!!! I call them stealers really and only good to obtain factory parts They will charge you an arm and a leg and their practice is to replace and not fix things. Find a good independant mechanic who has proven experience and preferably races Porsches. Talk to them and see what their attitude is. Case in point is my mechanic who I can tell you without him I would not be able to afford my dream. When I had my 968 like most Porsche owners I was bouncing from dealer to dealer hoping that every little thing that needs attention will not cost me my house payment for the month. One lovely day one of the pop up headlights on the 968 gave up the ghost. The 968 stubbonrly would only raise one eye up and I was forced to drive like a one eye pirate for a couple of days till my fear that my local friendly PD Officers will give me a ticket led me in desperation to the local dealer. In the meantime I had examined the bad eye and I could hear the motor trying to lift it up. So I told the dealer that and he said he was going to take a look at it. I got the dreaded phonecall and the "advisor" said : Oh you need a whole new assembly!!! I said that cannot be! He said yeap, the parts come all together so you need this...cost i said? $450 plus labor!!!!!! I nearly fainted and I said thank you no thank you... I was moving back to my hometown anyway shortly so I figured I would give a try a mechanic that a friend suggested me. So I did... my mechanic which I have to this day laughed out loud when I told him what the advisor said... He said do you see this part? pointing to a smally little plastic thing. I said yes... he says this is the 2 dollar part that needs to be replaced...

4. Buy USED! Most of my parts on both cars are bought used. There are a lot of bargains out there, on ebay, on PCA sites, salvage yards etc. The key here is that people will always "upgrade" that would be suspensions, interior parts, engine parts, wheels, brakes etc. That is where I shop! For example. I bought my triple adjustable JRZ shocks for 2 grand. The shocks were rebuilt so they are as good as new. Compare this to 4.5K that I would need to pay for a new set! Another example? My kinesis supercup wheels were had for $1700. 2 were slightly bent so add a couple of hundred to the mix and compare to $3500 price tag of new rims.
Bottom line is that there is ALWAYS someone who wants your parts and you want theirs... You just have to be patient look hard and dont wait till you find another deal. If the deal is good do it as most likely this deal will not come your way again.

5. Learn how to do maintenance yourself and always do preventive maintenance. Changing the oil is not brain surgery, changing the betls etc. These items could very well be done easily and that will save money. Furthermore don't skimp on these kind of expences. Budget for them. For example if your belts are old or have many miles on, change them before what the book says. This is cheap insurance that your engine will be running at its best and the benefit here is that Porsche engines are literally bullet proof and they will last many many miles unopened especially so the last versions of the aircooled engines.

6. DRIVE IT! Many people will get them and store them for some strange reason! The more you drive it the better! Besides that is what Porsche ownership is all about. Spend your money where it counts ( suspension) and take it to your local race track! Then you will develop a permanent grin on your face which is a Porsche drivers phenomenon!

Hope to see some of you joining the ranks! Life is short and Porsche life is very rewarding indeed!
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Old 04-03-2004, 01:27 PM   #2
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I read all of it, and I can say you convinced me to buy a Porsche. Now all I need is $20.000 .
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Old 04-03-2004, 03:18 PM   #3
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same here..thanx for the advice...now i gotta go work...or rob a bank
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Old 04-03-2004, 03:40 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by deth
or rob a bank
PM me when you decide to do so.


Thanks for the post. I always though of getting a porsche, and I see a lot of 911s for 20k, but I always thought that those 20k 911 need another 10k in repairs etc.is that true?
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Old 04-03-2004, 04:03 PM   #5
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I'll be happy to drive the getaway car
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Old 04-03-2004, 04:18 PM   #6
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looks like we's got the beginings of a heist crew
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Old 04-03-2004, 04:20 PM   #7
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Ok we got three people on the team. Who is willing to get the guns? I could get some AK47s from my Ukrainian connections, but we need something silenced. We also need a getaway car.
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Old 04-03-2004, 04:24 PM   #8
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having played GTA:VC, i opt for a getaway chopper
we could ofcourse rob Fort Knox to prove we're no amateurs lotsa money also.
find a .22 silenced pistol somewhere, theyre the quitetest as far as i know.

O and a couple of days ago i read on cnn.com about a 93-yo bank robber who learnt some rules fro ma real pro in jail:
-hit a bank within a full gas tank reach of your home
-NEVER return to the place where u hit the bank
-some more rules i forgot, but maybe u can look em up at cnn.com
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Old 04-03-2004, 04:47 PM   #9
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By the way this post is going, everyone will have an old Porsche. However, if you rob a bank, buy something more expensive...LOL
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Old 04-03-2004, 06:29 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by SFDMALEX
Originally Posted by deth
or rob a bank
Thanks for the post. I always though of getting a porsche, and I see a lot of 911s for 20k, but I always thought that those 20k 911 need another 10k in repairs etc.is that true?
No that is not true. Usually cosmetically neglected cars will go for cheap as unimformed buyers will stay away from them... The key is the mechanics and the chassis. No accidents and a solid engine and tranny. That is why a good PPI is all you need. If these are ok then the cosmetics can be done really cheap. For example... I "stole" my race car because it was a mess on the interior. The car had 80K miles, all the receipts for service, no accidents and the PPI numbers were very solid. I was looking for a race car anyway so interior was unimportant to me. Later though I was thinking of how cheap and easy would be to bring it back to life! Given the fact that my interior exept for the seats and safety equipment in general have to look stock, I bought aftermarket OEM quality carpets for $400 complete. The dash was cracked a bit so I went on ebay and got one in great condition for 80 bucks. I had a spare shiftknob, so I cut the leather boot and using zip ties I mounted the new shiftknob. For another 200 bucks I bought used and in great condition a set of RS door panels which were covered in OEM leather. If I wanted to get seats I would get used OEM seats from ebay for 500-600bucks or redo the stock seats. In my case I had to have racing seats so I bought a set of slightly used Sparco's for 600 bucks and I was set. Now the interior looks really sharp almost in brand new condition... I run the car with the stock engine, tranny, clutch and brakes for almost a year without a hitch... I only comsumed brake pads and a set or rotors which are very cheap to buy anyway...all that with an 80K mile car that noone wanted to buy because of the rough cosmetics... My gain their loss really!!!
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Old 04-03-2004, 09:04 PM   #11
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Ok we got three people on the team. Who is willing to get the guns? I could get some AK47s from my Ukrainian connections, but we need something silenced. We also need a getaway car.
I can get you the silenced guns from my Russian connections. How's an Olds Alero with tinted windows for a getaway car? Count me in!
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Old 04-11-2004, 12:43 PM   #12
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Great point about the 964 being under priced in the resale market. Overall I agree the car is a desirable car to own. I have heard it said that the 964 is Lois Ruf's favorite model and that includes the more popular 993.

There is another problem that I have heard in addition to the oil leak, earlier cars had problems with the twin mass flywheel. The earlier models had a rubber dampening ring that wasn't very reliable. It was later replaced by a steel part in 1993.
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Old 04-15-2004, 12:29 AM   #13
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The dual mass flywheel was actually carried over to the 993 and you are right it was improved in the late 92 /93 models as well as a change in the rear pick up points of the suspension. However with so many years since then all the owners that had that problem have already updated the clutch/flywheeel under warranty when they had the problem so it should not a present issue to speak off. In any case an RS lightweight flywheel/clutch plate combo should be a high priority on someone's list to upgrade to as they make significant improvement in performance on both 964's and 993's. I have changed these items in both my 993's before they needed to be replaced just for performance gains.
A lot of people go for chips for performance upgrade and mostly they waste money...
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Old 04-26-2004, 08:53 PM   #14
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I found some additional information about some of the problems that have been associated with the 964. The information comes from an excellent site that exclusively details the 964 ( http://www.porsche964.co.uk/history/964bio.htm ).

The article says:

"Myths and Legends
As with any automobile model the 964 has its fair share of myths and legends. Ask many alleged experts and they will you that the 964 is riddled with faults and is expensive to maintain. This is simply not true. There were only a few problems (far less than many other automobiles then and now) which were quickly rectified by Porsche which affected the 964 series.

Engine Oil Leak
In fact this was an acknowledged design flaw by Porsche. The cylinder heads were mounted without a head gasket. Unfortunately the engine ran a little hotter than predicted and this caused a slight warp at the base of the cylinder head and oil would weep out. This problem was rectified by the installation of a head gasket during the engine production of model year 1991. A fix was also approved for the earlier engines. The main problem is that the owners of the time did not have this fix carried out. Some of the 964s now weep oil. The problem is fixable. A caveat has to be added as well regarding oil leaks. This introduction is being written in 2003 about engine produced from 1988 to 1993. The Porsche engine is an internal combustion engine and is dry sumped. All internal combustion engines develop oil leaks with age. Not with mileage but with age. Gaskets and seals eventually fail. The less the engine is used the more likely they will fail in a shorter calendar time. This is not a model or 964 problem this is just reality.

Double Mass Flywheel
The second most discussed problem is the double mass flywheel problem. This problem does not affect the following models;

1989 Carrera 4
1991 Turbo
1992 Carrera RS
1992 Carrera Cup
1992 Carrera 2 versions fitted with LUK DMF
1992 Carrera 4 versions fitted with new secondary flywheel mass
1993 All models
1994 All models

The DMF was introduced in model year 1990 to meet stringent new internal noise level regulations. The DMF consists of two flywheels mounted together with the starter ring sandwiched between the two masses. The problem was with the early DMFs was that one mass would move too far. This made the assembly make strange noises. A very distinctive “clunk” sound could be heard along with vibrations in the transmission. If the problem was not rectified gear changing problems would occur and the myth of clutch reliability arose. This is dealt with later. Porsche quickly came up with fixes for these problems. For the Carrera 4 a new secondary flywheel mass (the turbo version) was used and for the Carrera 2 an alternative supplier was found for the DMF. LUK was the name of the new supplier. Porsche 356 owners will be familiar with the name LUK.

Once the early DMFs are all replaced this problem will disappear forever.

Dual Ignition System
The last problem related to the dual ignition system of the normally aspirated 964 M64 series engines. The turbo charged engines only use a single distributor system. The second or secondary distributor drive is a belt drive from the engine driven primary distributor. This belt is made from synthetic rubber and it failed quickly under the effect of Ozone created by the spark inside the distributor caps. Porsche fixed this problem quickly as well. A vent kit was introduced to remove the ozone from the assembly. It is a simple modification it works yet many 964s even in 2003 do not have this vent kit installed. However please remember that even with the vent kit installed the belt will still age and eventually fail. It is no different to a rubber cam or timing belt used on other Porsches. Rubber belts should be replaced every 100, 000 km (60, 000 miles) or every 5 years whichever comes first. In a very worst situation a broken secondary drive belt can cause expensive damage to the engine.

Clutch
The clutch plate used by Porsche in the 1989 Carrera 4s only was rubber centred. When the double mass flywheel was introduced there was no further need for a damped clutch plate because the DMF was now the damper. The clutch plate used in conjunction with a DMF is known as a solid centre clutch plate. It has no springs or any other damper device installed. The only thing that can wear out is the lining and this is a consumable or expendable product that eventually wears out. The life of the clutch is highly dependent upon the drivers foot co-ordination and how fast the clutch is let out. A failed DMF can accelerate clutch plate wear.

Rear Blower Fan Resistor
Ensure the rear blower fan ballast resistor (speed limiting device) is replaced with the newer version which contains overheat protection. If the new ballast resistor is not installed there is a risk of an engine bay fire if there is a specific sequence of events that occur. Engine turned off whilst very hot and the air temperature in the rear blower fan plumbing is above 95C. Fan bearings failed and rear blower motor is seized. A very rare but easily avoidable potential problem. Inspecting of this resistor should be part of any pre-purchase inspection.

Summary
All Porsches can be expensive to maintain simply because parts costs are generally higher than your average automobile. Labour costs are higher due to access issues especially in and around the engine bay. The 964 is a true sports car, a Porsche and maintenance costs are higher. The 964 is a high performance car and reliability is always going to be less as compared to a daily plodder. The 964 likes being driven so drive it often. Lack of use can be more damaging than too much."
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Old 04-27-2004, 10:41 AM   #15
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phshaw...get a 924 or better yet, a 914.
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