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SFDMALEX · 04-08-2007, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by graywolf624

No offense but youve just proved my point. Several things that are instinctive in grappling are WRONG. Several of them will get your ass beat bad. It isn't instinctive in the slightest until youve trained for years, any more then any sport. If that wasn't the case you could come from nowhere and be good. Doesn't work like that.. I dont care how heavy you are, if you want to wrestle under wrestling rules and youve never done it, Ill walk all over you.. I can guarentee that without a shadow of a doubt.

I really dont know WTF you are on about today Gray.

I dont wrestle and I dont claim to know how to wrestle.

Just I like dont expect you to walk all over me in a boxing ring, or actually pose any threat at all, because it takes a ton of training and sparring to be good.

I seen more then my fare share of average Joe's come into the ring thinking they can fight never having it done before and made look silly in less then one round.

If I fight a wrester by their rules I expect to loose. But if I just fight on the street I'm definetly not useless on the ground just because I happen to be a boxer.

Just because Im a boxer doesnt mean I got zero knowledge of what to do if I happen to end up on ground. If I end up on the ground in the first place.

graywolf624 · 04-08-2007, 02:19 PM

If I fight a wrester by their rules I expect to loose. But if I just fight on the street I'm definetly not useless on the ground just because I happen to be a boxer.

Just because Im a boxer doesnt mean I got zero knowledge of what to do if I happen to end up on ground. If I end up on the ground in the first place.

Except your in the wrestlers play ground playing by their rules once your on the ground... You just said theyd kick your ass.

SFDMALEX · 04-08-2007, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by graywolf624

But a wrestler has been trained to take hits.. Thats the parts you miss.. We take hits every match... Ive personally had concussions, bloody noses, teeth jarred, bruised ribs, broken arm, swollen disc in my back etc... many of my teammates had broken jaws or noses. That shit happens and you are trained to take hits and falls, at least at the upper levels. You have to be prepared for the eventualities to not lose your game plan.. or your screwed.

Im not saying its to the level of the boxer.. But it doesnt have to be.. it just has to be long enough to get the man to the ground.. Thats easier then you think.

And how much do you know about hitting? How can you be so damn confident that you are not going to take one on your button before you ever take a man down?

Or get kicked in the head...

I really dont understand how can you be confident in taking a man down to the ground who is strong and activly fighting back.....

SFDMALEX · 04-08-2007, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by graywolf624

If I fight a wrester by their rules I expect to loose. But if I just fight on the street I'm definetly not useless on the ground just because I happen to be a boxer.

Just because Im a boxer doesnt mean I got zero knowledge of what to do if I happen to end up on ground. If I end up on the ground in the first place.

Except your in the wrestlers play ground playing by their rules once your on the ground... You just said theyd kick your ass.

And who says Im going to his playground and he's not going to stay in my'n?

SFDMALEX · 04-08-2007, 02:21 PM

D00de I gotta go, I have a GTL race, we'll talk later.

graywolf624 · 04-08-2007, 02:23 PM

And how much do you know about hitting? How can you be so damn confident that you are not going to take one on your button before you ever take a man down?

I've done it and seen it done many times. I have several friends that are boxers.. and weve tested this theory.. in the exact way you describe.. and its ended the same way all but once (of probably hundreds of times).. Where he did get a shot off.. Which comes down to the 50-50 once we are bare knuckles. In that case he wasnt bare knuckled and I still one.. Had he been and it had been someone better.. I may have been gone.. But that angle isnt the best to be punching someone..
No one has ever succeeded in kicking me while I was shooting.. several have tried.. You just need to know how to do it. If you lead with your head, your not shooting right in the first place.. Your head should be no where near the feet, ever.

graywolf624 · 04-08-2007, 02:24 PM

And who says Im going to his playground and he's not going to stay in my'n?

Statistics. Statistics and observation show that less then 1 percent of fights dont have a portion on the ground. That statistic is related to MWA's but in all the street fights ive seen, Ive never seen a situation with no portion of grappling.

gucom · 04-08-2007, 02:52 PM

hmm my bad about UFC, in my mind all MMA is the same

dont watch it enough, it's indeed pride that's tough...

From my experience? Although 100% going at it standing up for a full minute is lethal, the first time i wrestled it completely killed me, the pure level of physical-ness of it completely surprised me...

That said, wrestling/grappling is so much a thinking game, if you know your stuff and play it smart, and know your techniques, you can make it a lot easier on yourself (once you're in a control point "all you have to do" (not at all easy ofcourse) is stay there and wear ur opponent out, or think of a way to hit him.
Standing up going at it like your life's depending on it wears you out insanely fast too, it's (to me) probably more intense than sprinting... although that might also be down to my stamina being alot less than when i still did track athletics...

Now, about the fighting classes: it is my feeling that most fights are determined on the ground too... Also, back in the beginning days of MMA, i believe most of the winners were grapplers who had enough strenth/speed to throw decent kicks and punches, and later the standing-up guys learned grappling techniques and things evened out (correct me if im wrong here)

SFDMALEX · 04-08-2007, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by graywolf624

And how much do you know about hitting? How can you be so damn confident that you are not going to take one on your button before you ever take a man down?

I've done it and seen it done many times. I have several friends that are boxers.. and weve tested this theory.. in the exact way you describe.. and its ended the same way all but once (of probably hundreds of times).. Where he did get a shot off.. Which comes down to the 50-50 once we are bare knuckles. In that case he wasnt bare knuckled and I still one.. Had he been and it had been someone better.. I may have been gone.. But that angle isnt the best to be punching someone..
No one has ever succeeded in kicking me while I was shooting.. several have tried.. You just need to know how to do it. If you lead with your head, your not shooting right in the first place.. Your head should be no where near the feet, ever.

Well I suggest you check out Mirko "CroCop' Mirkovic, whose a kick boxer in his pride fights, sure it ends up on the ground a lot.

But if you really know how to kick you get huge reach advantage over your opponets, going down or not, you can create a lot of room roundhousing someone wether they are going to take you down or try to do standup...I know we are going into kickboxing...but Im just brining another example were I dont think wrestling could be as effective.

Reason I say this is because I have seen a ton of times were wrestlers fail in their take downs. I dont think your in position personaly to say that Pride and heck even some UFC fighters are just extremly shity wrestlers if they cant take a man down each time they attempt it.

graywolf624 · 04-08-2007, 05:09 PM

I dont think your in position personaly to say that Pride and heck even some UFC fighters are just extremly shity wrestlers if they cant take a man down each time they attempt it.

There is no one in Pride or UFC that is any good that hasn't had wrestling/ grappling instruction (either as a sport or even to work on their form for mwa). As was mentioned above, when they first started those with only striking ability got slaughtered.. Whether they are elite wrestlers or not. Mirkovic included. I never argued they were.. I told you a straight up boxers going to get his ass kicked in a street fight against someone who has grappling ability and even a modicum of ability to take a hit. They just arent trained that way.

As for UFC fighters, the problem with their fighting style is the rules make it tactically advantageous to lay on your back and fight from there. That doesnt work in the real world.

SFDMALEX · 04-08-2007, 05:33 PM

I agree, I dont think boxers stand much of a chance in a street fight if only stickign purely to boxing.

The vibe I got off you is that wrestling alone is the key to winning any fight, which I dont agree with, because wrestling is not about punching, I dont think wrestling alone guarntees a win, as we can all see in MMA.

On the other hand, I highly doubt that Id loose to someone with wrestling experiance each time, say on the street. Me as a kickboxer/boxer I dont see my self walking on the street, getting jumped by some wrestler and loosing each time.

graywolf624 · 04-08-2007, 05:36 PM

I never said alone.. I said without it youd be screwed. It sounds like you still dont get it based on your comments.

SFDMALEX · 04-08-2007, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by graywolf624

I never said alone.. I said without it youd be screwed. It sounds like you still dont get it based on your comments.

Oh I get it, I just dont agree with an implication that just because I never formaly grappled I'd get my ass kicked by some wrestler on the street.

graywolf624 · 04-08-2007, 05:57 PM

Then I think your foolish. If you havent had training in defending against something, if they use it against you your screwed. If you don't recognize that, then you need more training as thats the first thing you learn in any training.

SFDMALEX · 04-08-2007, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by graywolf624

Then I think your foolish. If you havent had training in defending against something, if they use it against you your screwed. If you don't recognize that, then you need more training as thats the first thing you learn in any training.

I do mate, I beat the shit out someone I see on the floor, with eveyrthing I got

I think your foolish to think that some random wrestler will have a chance against a man who you know nothing about.

At least I give a wrestler a chance, your just arrogantly thinking that cause I havent formaly trained in wrestling Ill loose.

I think a wrestler will loose cause he isnt formaly trained to take round houses, left hooks, knees, kick to the legs and a whole bunch of other shit.

Im just trying to think how you are magicaly going to prevent someone from using their arms, keens, legs and just about everything else 5seconds into a fight.