Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z06

[martin100]

Originally Posted by RC45 Of course compared to Veyron it is a plastuic piece of shit.. but if you are poor slob - the Z06 is the car to have

Exactly

[TopGearNL]

The Zo6 is beginning to completely win me over (also due to RC for the biggest part!)

[philip]

So where might someone in Houston see the two RS's. I might like to see new the car I will be buying in 10 years. In that time I might even grow to like the lime green color.

[novass]

Nice article and great pics! I would love to see those two cars in my garage, but I want the Z06 in black with black wheels and black interior and the GT3RS in orange/black.

[tforth]

Have you ever been in and or around an RS setup Porsche? For that matter have you ever been in and around a plain-jane GT3?

Yes I have, although not a 997 GT3/RS, as I actually did a work term in Weissach, and as such managed to get on the track on numerous occasions, with several different 911s.

You have an obvious bias

Are you the pot here, or the kettle?

Oh - and before you get all hot and sweaty about me being a Porsche hater

No, you have made it abundantly clear that you are, among other things, a Veyron hater. I guess you can draw more of a crowd with this moniker, as it seems that there are many in this camp. I can only assume you don't speak out against Porsches, because they have a very large fan base among 'true' car enthusiasts. I do find it kind of strange that you claim to like both vettes and Porsches though, as they are at pretty much opposite end of the spectrum in most regards.

What exactly is your point? GM sells every Corvette they produce... The same way Porsche sell all the 911 they produce.

Interesting this, as just a couple of weeks ago I saw an add in the Globe and Mail for a Chevy dealer just outside Toronto (Colonial @888-286-0914), where they had advertised (among other 'old' new vettes) a 'new' 2005 Z06 Black/Black for 'must sell' CDN$89 000, with a MSRP of CDN 102 000. I can't remember seeing any potentially 2 year old (new) 911s listed in the paper. Furthermore, my point is not whether GM has difficulties moving Z06s or not, which they appear to, now that you mention this, but rather that it (as is the case with the Ford GT, Viper, NSX, etc., etc.) is a loss leader for them. So, when people keep going on about how cheap the Z06 is, they are not considering how much GM is subsidizing the car, just like VW has done with the Veyron (there, I have just provided some amo for you).

On the other hand, Wendelin Wiedeking, has made it quite clear from the outset, that all Porsche models will only be commissioned, if they can make a profit on their own (this even included the CGT).

Just give credit where credit is due for God's sake and move on.

The 'credit' that you refer to is that 'Auto Zeitung', which has to be one of the cheesiest German magazines (I know, because I have been reading ams since 1986, as well as sport auto over the past 10 years or so) quoted similar times for both cars. For me the only credible and somewhat telling info listed in the article, is that even with a racing driver at the helm, the Z06 was simply a 'point and shoot' car. In other words it was very fast down the straights (what an accomplishment with a 7.0L vs. a 3.6L engine in similar weight vehicles), and very slow and edgy through the corners. Even with track rubber, I can only assume that this contrast would only be reduced and not changed in its favour.

Considering this fact, isn't it funny how you accused the Veyron of being this kind of vehicle, eh?

[philip]

I like Porsches and Corvettes. I currently own and drive both. I intend to some day have both a Z06 and a GT3RS. I cheer for both at Le Mans and here in Houston. They are as different now, as they were in the 1960's. One is fibreglass the other steel one front engined the other rear. One made in the US the other in Germany. Brute force vs finesse its always been that way, I hope it never changes.

The Veyron is still too new for me. It doesn't race yet.


From the Concorso Italiano in Monterey 2006

It competes to me with the F1 and the Enzo, its really way beyond my league, if I had to pick between the three, it would be the F1.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by tforth For me the only credible and somewhat telling info listed in the article, is that even with a racing driver at the helm, the Z06 was simply a 'point and shoot' car.

What little crediblity you had is shot to hell with this very pointed statement - the same race driver in one of the hardest edged and most purposeful designed "race cars" in street trim, the GT3-RS barely edged away from the pure-street, daily driver, run-flat tyred, Z06.

By your ramblings, it is almost as if the closest you have ever been to a high powered sports car is reading magazines in the toilet - because if you had any practical experience you would know that the time seperating these two (and every other 3200lb/500hp car) is so small and dependant on the day/conditions/driver - and that either of these car is so brutal and fast it would make you piss in your pants in a heart beat.

Originally Posted by tforth In other words it was very fast down the straights (what an accomplishment with a 7.0L vs. a 3.6L engine in similar weight vehicles), and very slow and edgy through the corners. Even with track rubber, I can only assume that this contrast would only be reduced and not changed in its favour.

Again - do you not get the point - the GT3-RS is specifically and radically tune in the suspension department to feel, run and gun like a dedictaed race car - and it is to be expected to hadnle the way it does, the fact the test showed the race rubber car vs the street tyre car was so close is actually all the prrof yo uneed - the Z06 is not a "point and shoot PS3 console" far from it.

Originally Posted by tforth Considering this fact, isn't it funny how you accused the Veyron of being this kind of vehicle, eh?

There is no coparison - the Veyron cannot be operate dby a human without all the aids turned on.. making it a point and shoot car.

BTW - I would love to knowm have you ever piloted a car/bike in anger aorund a closed course? Because your reasoing seems to point towards someoen who hasn't - and thus thinks in terms of magazine stats and hearsay with regard to car performance.

I have to just wonder - really.

[tforth]

What little crediblity you had is shot to hell with this very pointed statement - the same race driver in one of the hardest edged and most purposeful designed "race cars" in street trim, the GT3-RS barely edged away from the pure-street, daily driver, run-flat tyred, Z06.

The 'credit' that you refer to is that 'Auto Zeitung', which has to be one of the cheesiest German magazines (I know, because I have been reading ams since 1986, as well as sport auto over the past 10 years or so) quoted similar times for both cars.

By your ramblings, it is almost as if the closest you have ever been to a high powered sports car is reading magazines in the toilet - because if you had any practical experience you would know that the time seperating these two (and every other 3200lb/500hp car) is so small and dependant on the day/conditions/driver - and that either of these car is so brutal and fast it would make you piss in your pants in a heart beat.

How far you are from the truth. Although I do not claim to get as much track time as I would like (usually only 2/year), every car I have driven over the past 10 years has been modified extensively (including dedicated track wheels & tires) for track work. Furthermore, I don't call parking lots tracks. A track is an actual road course, with some element of danger, otherwise what's the difference between it and a PS2 game? Most recently, I did an event at Mosport last fall, and it was everything I had expected. Have you even heard of Mosport? Oh, and I have also been around the Nurburgring, although it was back in 1986, so I wasn't driving at the time; have you?

Again - do you not get the point - the GT3-RS is specifically and radically tune in the suspension department to feel, run and gun like a dedictaed race car - and it is to be expected to hadnle the way it does, the fact the test showed the race rubber car vs the street tyre car was so close is actually all the prrof yo uneed - the Z06 is not a "point and shoot PS3 console" far from it.

Interesting, as evo stated (when describing the Z06) in their December 2007 Car of the Year issue, where the outcome was 1st 599 GTB, 2nd 997GT3, 3rd LP 640 and 4th Z06:

"If it were built by Porsche it would wear an RS badge and command twice the asking price"

I would agree that this statement is a bit of stretch, especially considering the rubber, but clearly people that have driven it don't consider it to be quite the daily 'beater' that you make it seem, unlike the GT3 which at least has PASM (on the 997) and sat nav. Most of the American magazines which have compared it against it's peers have also stated that it is a pretty focused device and tricky at the limit, as has Jeremy Clarkson, for whatever that's worth.

There is no coparison - the Veyron cannot be operate dby a human without all the aids turned on..

You're missing the point; it's a GT - that's they way it will be driven by the people who can actually afford it.

and thus thinks in terms of magazine stats and hearsay with regard to car performance.

Wow, I guess this is a good example of perspective, and how you seem to lack it. I am educated in the area of science which helps me understand why cars do what they do. I also drive very enthusiastically when ever the opportunity arises, including on real tracks. I have met many people at track events or otherwise, who think that they know a lot about cars, but can't tell you what the difference is between under and oversteer (and some of them weren't even that slow on track).

Realistically, very few people are afforded the opportunity to drive as many different high performance cars, in anger/on track, etc. as some of the magazine writers can. What they state is up for public scrutiny by a very wide audience, it is not hearsay. That's why some of them develope a corresponding good/bad reputation, like Auto Zeitung. Can you even read German, or did you just rely on what this guy wrote anyway?

[RC45]

Originally Posted by tforth Interesting, as evo stated (when describing the Z06) in their December 2007 Car of the Year issue, where the outcome was 1st 599 GTB, 2nd 997GT3, 3rd LP 640 and 4th Z06: "If it were built by Porsche it would wear an RS badge and command twice the asking price"

Well - look at what they compare it to.

But they are speaking absolute tripe.

The C6 Z06 is not even close to the razors edge a GT3 is.... it is a great all rounder with space and comfort to spare - which makes it a fantastic daily driver considering the great gas milage it gets.

Originally Posted by tforth I would agree that this statement is a bit of stretch, especially considering the rubber, but clearly people that have driven it don't consider it to be quite the daily 'beater' that you make it seem, unlike the GT3 which at least has PASM (on the 997) and sat nav. Most of the American magazines which have compared it against it's peers have also stated that it is a pretty focused device and tricky at the limit, as has Jeremy Clarkson, for whatever that's worth.

This statement is so full of carp it is hard to not vomit on the spot.

Are you suggesting the Z06 has no stability management or SAT NAv?

And exactly what cars has the Z06 been compared to? I am imagining each of those is quite focused as well.

Originally Posted by tforth There is no coparison - the Veyron cannot be operate dby a human without all the aids turned on.. You're missing the point; it's a GT - that's they way it will be driven by the people who can actually afford it.

In other words the 1000hp is pointless without the elctronic aids and the car is no where the "sports' car every one makes it out to be... uhm - thats exactly what we say about it.

Originally Posted by tforth Wow, I guess this is a good example of perspective, and how you seem to lack it. I am educated in the area of science which helps me understand why cars do what they do. I also drive very enthusiastically when ever the opportunity arises, including on real tracks. I have met many people at track events or otherwise, who think that they know a lot about cars, but can't tell you what the difference is between under and oversteer (and some of them weren't even that slow on track). Realistically, very few people are afforded the opportunity to drive as many different high performance cars, in anger/on track, etc. as some of the magazine writers can. What they state is up for public scrutiny by a very wide audience, it is not hearsay. That's why some of them develope a corresponding good/bad reputation, like Auto Zeitung. Can you even read German, or did you just rely on what this guy wrote anyway?

So you basically take magazine hearsay as gospel.

[tforth]

So you basically take magazine hearsay as gospel.

No, I take the general consensus of British mags ('Autocar', 'evo' and sometimes 'car') and German ('sport auto' and 'auto motor und sport'), along with the male reviews performed on 5th gear, and some Best Motoring shows as a pretty good indicator of how high-end cars perform comparatively.

Regarding the Z06 in general, I would say it represents an excellent price/performance buy. However, if you can afford more, there are much better and better engineered vehicles out there. They also don't feel like they're put together like a $20 000 American car is.

We actually did some development work on a C6 Z06, and although I didn't drive it myself (this particular program was not my responsibility), one of the guys who did (who has driven everything from his Cayman S to a single turbo 935 and a 993 GT2 evo on Mosport) said that it was really fast, but was pretty hairy at the limit. He also said it felt like a piece of junk. He was actually considering it before he bought his Cayman S (same kind of money). He has not looked back at his decision since...

So, in a nut shell, if you like doing stop light drags on a budget, or only drive on relatively smooth tracks, it would make a good choice. On the other hand, that line you mentioned about taking it to the Theater or something, is ridiculous. Corvettes have never been considered in good taste among the 'old money folk'. They have always been an example of the 'brute force' approach. Although, I will admit that the C6 Z06 has been as close to a properly engineered car as they have ever come, and if they would just work on the suspension and fit/finish quality, they would have a genuine contender!

[TNT]

well aside from the little debate we have going on here, thanks for the read and the translation. but personally i would perfer an Evolution to these cars. for the simple fact that it can "hang" with these guys and carry two more doors.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by tforth So you basically take magazine hearsay as gospel. No, I take the general consensus of British mags ('Autocar', 'evo' and sometimes 'car') and German ('sport auto' and 'auto motor und sport'), along with the male reviews performed on 5th gear, and some Best Motoring shows as a pretty good indicator of how high-end cars perform comparatively.

Oh - so you are a magazine racer.

Enough said.

Originally Posted by tforth Regarding the Z06 in general, I would say it represents an excellent price/performance buy. However, if you can afford more, there are much better and better engineered vehicles out there. They also don't feel like they're put together like a $20 000 American car is.

Christ - have you ever driven one? Or any of its competitors? Because you are completely full of shit if you say "it feels like a $20,000 American car".

Absolutely full of shit. HAving spent an entire day in a Ruf RT12 I can tell you it felt no different than a C6 Z06 - other than being faster.

The same is true for the other competitors.

To say otherwise porove the bias you display.

Originally Posted by tforth We actually did some development work on a C6 Z06, and although I didn't drive it myself

Oh - so you haven't driven one. What a surprise.. :roll:

Originally Posted by tforth (this particular program was not my responsibility), one of the guys who did (who has driven everything from his Cayman S to a single turbo 935 and a 993 GT2 evo on Mosport) said that it was really fast, but was pretty hairy at the limit.

And a 993 GT2 wasn't? Yet another biased load of crap.

Originally Posted by tforth He also said it felt like a piece of junk.

Again - what a crock of shit - It felt like a peice of junk? Ha --- again, the car feels no different to it's competitors.. I am amaqzed at the utter tripe people like yourself spew forth.

"Cortvette is kaka.. Porsche is uber..." :roll:

Originally Posted by tforth He was actually considering it before he bought his Cayman S (same kind of money).

Ibet he gets lots of looks from the other pooftas at Starbucks..

Originally Posted by tforth He has not looked back at his decision since...

I should imagine not - it's a nice medium performing medium paced car - ideal for the poser.

What a crock of shit - He was cross shopping a Cayman and Z06.. uhm - the car's are in the same price range - but - uhm - not market competitors.. the mere fact you and he seem to think they are "competirots" is rather telling.

He may as wlel have bought a Boxster or S2000 or better yet an Audi TT.

Originally Posted by tforth So, in a nut shell, if you like doing stop light drags on a budget, or only drive on relatively smooth tracks, it would make a good choice.

Again with a very ill-informed biased load of tripe.

$70,000 stoplights on a budget? Or short smooth tracks? WTF? You have NO IDEA what you are rambling about.

Originally Posted by tforth On the other hand, that line you mentioned about taking it to the Theater or something, is ridiculous.

Shut the fuck up already with your crap.

Originally Posted by tforth [ Corvettes have never been considered in good taste among the 'old money folk'.

Old money

WTF are youon about old fucking money?

WTF does "old money" havce to do with a sports car?

You are a freaking poser through and through.

Originally Posted by tforth They have always been an example of the 'brute force' approach. Although, I will admit that the C6 Z06 has been as close to a properly engineered car as they have ever come, and if they would just work on the suspension

Yeha - because the stock suspension is only good for 7m43s at the Nurbirgring.. :roll:

Jesus you are one biased ill informed mutha fucker.. and I am holding back on that one

Originally Posted by tforth and fit/finish quality, they would have a genuine contender!

Fuck - all you fit and finish people are so quick to mouth off - but put 7 modern cars next to each other and ask you to quanitfy this "fit and finish" and you come up with no answer.

I am amazed that for a so called knowledgable folks can continue to spew such drivel.

:roll:

[RC45]

Originally Posted by TNT well aside from the little debate we have going on here, thanks for the read and the translation. but personally i would perfer an Evolution to these cars. for the simple fact that it can "hang" with these guys and carry two more doors.

At least youstate your opinion as that - an opinion and move on..

Unlike some of our more ill-informed members that seem to think you are either "for" or "against" any cars - he refuses to believe that people can actually like, enjoy and have fun with more than one make of car - and give credit to each that deserve it.

I guess some people just "believe" their opinion to be fact.

[novass]

Originally Posted by tforth Corvettes have never been considered in good taste among the 'old money folk'.

I dont really want to get involved in this little debate, but that comment is pretty funny. You would be surprised at the amount of people here in the States that are avid Corvette collectors. It is a popular brand from the first gen to the present, so I wouldnt be so sure that the old money folk dont like them.

Personally, I like the Z06 and the GT3RS. Which one would I buy? I dont know, give me 60+ grand and I will let you know. I do like that I have a choice though. Even if I dont like a particular car, I am still glad its out there. It would suck if I had 50gs and went to buy a car and my choices were between a M3, a M3 and a M3. Even if I wanted the M3, its nice to know there are other options and that those options get the job done in different ways.

[Just_me]

I just have one little thing I want to add in this angry little debate. I only have one complaint regarding Z06 and its the gearbox, its not smooth and its also a little tardy compared to the germans. Oh and one more thing, I would like the seats to attach the body better, they are too flat for active driving.
Other than these things the Z06 is a very attractive car for the money.