motor

Alelanza · 03-18-2009, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by mts6800

My point was not how all the races last year would have been strategized by the teams but what would happen in the last race if, hypothetically, the teams ended up with the same points/wins as was the case in Brazil last year.

Would their strategies have been different? maybe, maybe the results would have been better, or worse. How does anyone know? In every season, at every race, the objective is to win races because it gains you the most. However; at some point the team realizes that pressing harder for the win risks loosing all the points and decides to take what's on the table. With the new system the teams have to decide what the balance is between getting constructor points and driver wins. I think it's going to be interesting.

As far as a team being able to use their engine quota to win one race, I can't see it. There is so much more to winning than just the engine.

Correction: i meant to say Interlagos not Spa above.
Now, thing is, the last two years we had some of the closest most last minute finishes seen in F1, meaning we know the point system does work. What would have happened in Brazil? i'm pretty sure nothing as exciting as what we had. Make 1st place more rewarding? yeah sure use the 12 9 6 5 etc system that most fans agreed was best but were ignored about.
Last year, Brazil being the exception, i don't recall a race where anyone with a shot at WDC settled for 2nd place do you?, it's well known that the F1 race structure n hardware makes it so that baring a last minute breakdown a la Massa @ hungaroring or funky weather such as Spa, most positions are decided after the last pitstop is done and over with. In fact that's why they made all the fuss about downforce/wake reduction, scientifically recognizing the lack of close fighting had a lot to do with the hardware, so the teams spent millions in following the new rules. But then last minute we're told the issue was with the drivers not going for it.... cmon.....
ALso being that 5-6 wins should mean WDC under most scenarios, what would a team do once one of their drivers wins a race? can they afford the luxury of letting both drivers fight it out till the closing stages? i doubt it. A driver with 1 or 2 wins will have the team backing him up with his partner playing second fiddle, meaning very early on in-team competition could be artificially killed off. In a season with so many tech changes, it's very possible for one team to dominate from the start, meaning the only person capable of challenging the guy winning the first one or two GPs has his wings cut and we have little competition.
And now think of Hamilton in Monza 08. Terrible qualifying, so that meant we got to see the good old back of the grid comeback, which is already rare as fortunately F1 does not have artificial rules that put top runners in the back. Would we see that with the new rules? not so sure because now with this rule WCC and WDC come into conflict. On the one hand he can push to get the team some points, on the other hand it's better for him to simply spin it out and stall it after lap 2. He gets to save an engine that way, and being WDC gets a lot more publicity and notoriety it's likely that would have happened, i'm sure the sponsors would have gone that route.
And all things being equal, engine wear becomes very important. It's been said a race old engine can be up to 5 tenths slower depending on the track you're at. With the new 18k limit that may be less, but still it means you can put fresh engines at races and qualis you know you already have an edge on (ie McLaren in Monaco being the prime example) and then cruise along on the ones where you know you already suck at, heck even use a single engine on fuel saving mode on the 6 tracks you have little chances to make an impression on. Meaning in the end the winner will be the team that better gambled which races to go for.
And what about the guy that was second best in wins at the end of the championship? it's entirely possible for someone to have more points than him as he focused on wins. Yet he most likely won't get 2nd place but rather 3rd or 4th as chances are a more constant driver will outscore him points wise. So despite giving his best to get wins he gets penalized under this new scheme. Not that second place is too important, but this very likely scenario does reflect the fundamental flaw with this new system.

mts6800 · 03-20-2009, 04:07 PM

What the hell is an "artificial rule"

Originally Posted by Alelanza

Correction: i meant to say Interlagos not Spa above.
Now, thing is, the last two years we had some of the closest most last minute finishes seen in F1, meaning we know the point system does work. What would have happened in Brazil? i'm pretty sure nothing as exciting as what we had. Make 1st place more rewarding? yeah sure use the 12 9 6 5 etc system that most fans agreed was best but were ignored about.

Last year, Brazil being the exception, i don't recall a race where anyone with a shot at WDC settled for 2nd place do you?, it's well known that the F1 race structure n hardware makes it so that baring a last minute breakdown a la Massa @ hungaroring or funky weather such as Spa, most positions are decided after the last pitstop is done and over with. In fact that's why they made all the fuss about downforce/wake reduction, scientifically recognizing the lack of close fighting had a lot to do with the hardware, so the teams spent millions in following the new rules. But then last minute we're told the issue was with the drivers not going for it.... cmon.....

I don't recall anyone stating "the issue was with the drivers not going for it" Certainly overtaking was an issue and that was addressed with the new aero rules.

As far as Brazil last year, LH didn’t settle for second, he settled for fifth. The weather is what made the race dramatic. More dramatic would have been to have LH and FM crossing the line at the finish side by side with the race winner taking the WDC.

Originally Posted by Alelanza

ALso being that 5-6 wins should mean WDC under most scenarios, what would a team do once one of their drivers wins a race? can they afford the luxury of letting both drivers fight it out till the closing stages? i doubt it. A driver with 1 or 2 wins will have the team backing him up with his partner playing second fiddle, meaning very early on in-team competition could be artificially killed off. In a season with so many tech changes, it's very possible for one team to dominate from the start, meaning the only person capable of challenging the guy winning the first one or two GPs has his wings cut and we have little competition.

Not much different than seasons under the old WDC rules, and last year, invariably, team drivers didn't fight it out after the last pit stop.

Originally Posted by Alelanza

And now think of Hamilton in Monza 08. Terrible qualifying, so that meant we got to see the good old back of the grid comeback, which is already rare as fortunately F1 does not have artificial rules that put top runners in the back. Would we see that with the new rules? not so sure because now with this rule WCC and WDC come into conflict. On the one hand he can push to get the team some points, on the other hand it's better for him to simply spin it out and stall it after lap 2. He gets to save an engine that way, and being WDC gets a lot more publicity and notoriety it's likely that would have happened, i'm sure the sponsors would have gone that route.

The new WDC rules somehow preclude the situation in Monza last year with LH from happening again this year? I don't see how. As far as a driver deliberately spinning out to "save the engine", well I bet he can plan on a short career. Decisions are made as a team, not by the driver alone. Under the two race engine rule we had teams deciding to "pull out" to save the engine. The official reason for retirement was something else of course.

Originally Posted by Alelanza

And all things being equal, engine wear becomes very important. It's been said a race old engine can be up to 5 tenths slower depending on the track you're at. With the new 18k limit that may be less, but still it means you can put fresh engines at races and qualis you know you already have an edge on (ie McLaren in Monaco being the prime example) and then cruise along on the ones where you know you already suck at, heck even use a single engine on fuel saving mode on the 6 tracks you have little chances to make an impression on. Meaning in the end the winner will be the team that better gambled which races to go for.

All things aren't equal. A less than the best chassis needs a lot more than a few extra horsepower to set pole

Originally Posted by Alelanza

And what about the guy that was second best in wins at the end of the championship? it's entirely possible for someone to have more points than him as he focused on wins. Yet he most likely won't get 2nd place but rather 3rd or 4th as chances are a more constant driver will outscore him points wise. So despite giving his best to get wins he gets penalized under this new scheme. Not that second place is too important, but this very likely scenario does reflect the fundamental flaw with this new system.

Well either his engine blew up or his car failed in some fashion, not his fault, he crashed out, his fault, ,or a pit problem. Only the crashing out, may, get him a black mark on a team's list of potential future drivers. Well, maybe he just wasn't as good as the driver taking the championship.

Conjectures and scenarios can have no end. Reality will be known at the end of the season. Let's see what happens on the way to getting there.

Alelanza · 03-20-2009, 04:24 PM

You know i was going to write a long reply, but i'm just too happy ATM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/moto...ne/7955790.stm

Glad to see common sense has prevailed

mts6800 · 03-21-2009, 02:10 AM

I'm glad you didn' t waste your time.

Racing is unpredictable, this year will be no exception, it will be interesting.

blue8 · 04-15-2009, 06:32 AM

Official: Double diffusers are legal
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74475

I'm actually glad that it was declared legal. It would now be very interesting to see if the big dogs (i.e. Ferrari and McLaren) can develop something in time to catch the 'diffuser-three'

turpija · 04-15-2009, 07:01 AM

status report:

Ferrari: The lower wishbones are attached to the chassis too high. The gearbox casing is too wide. Costa reckons it will take six races before the entire rear end has been changed. The earliest possible GP would be that of Turkey.

McLaren: The team plans to introduce a temporary solution with a double floor in China. McLaren has been working on two diffuser programmes parallelly. Whitmarsh: ''We will have an 80% solution in the middle of May. In te summer the second phase will come. For this intervention we have to modify the gearbox and the rear suspension.''

Red Bull: The are of the locating points of the pull rods in the way. The rearend crash structure would have to be completely redesigned as well. At the earliest the team could come up with a new solution in Turkey.

Scuderia Toro Rosso: RBR has priority and STR is normally one development stage behind. For them it will take an even longer time.

BMW-Sauber: Things look a bit more positive here. There's not an exact timetable but the team said: ''We will have something come Barcelona.'' It will probably only be a temporary solution though.

Renault: The team has been working on a double-decker diffuser for a longer time. Like McLaren, Renault is willing to introduce a temporary solution before Barcelona still.

Force India: The VJM002 can relatively easily be modified for the new diffuser. The next aerodynamic package is to be introduced in Barclona, a new diffuser will probably be a part of that.

SHIZL · 04-17-2009, 02:22 AM

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-conten...endiffuser.jpg
well there is mclarens temp fix for china

mts6800 · 04-18-2009, 12:50 AM

Looks like minor change. See before pic:
http://premium.f1-live.com/f1/photos...diapoa_004.jpg

to duplicate Brawn, and others, is major carbon fibre work. then you have others that have major issues with gearboxs, suspension. so change all that stuff and you can't test until the friday before a race. the other teams have major problems ahead.

5vz-fe · 04-18-2009, 01:54 AM

Looks like this season is a write off for Ferrari. They may as well focus on next year's car.

blue8 · 04-29-2009, 07:20 AM

McLaren has been given a suspended three-race ban for bringing the sport into disrepute after lying to stewards at the Australian and Malaysian Grands Prix.

Following a hearing of the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris on Wednesday, the governing body announced that since McLaren had admitted to the offences and made clear that there had been a change of 'culture' at the team, it has suspended the sentence that it deemed appropriate.

More here:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74937

HeilSvenska · 04-29-2009, 07:22 PM

Rumors of Mercedes exiting F1 are flying around as well as Lola's return.

yellky · 05-02-2009, 03:29 PM

2010 :: £40 million budget cap and 13 teams:
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/4/9290.html

this is interesting:

A new Costs Commission will monitor and enforce the budget-cap regulations. Those teams accepting the cap will be able to run constantly adjustable wings, engines with no rev limit, more powerful KERS systems, and - in theory - four-wheel drive. They will also be allowed unlimited out-of-season track testing with no restrictions on the scale and speed of wind tunnel testing.

5vz-fe · 05-15-2009, 08:34 PM

Ferrari taking FIA to court

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...15183912.shtml

It will be interesting to see how things will turn out on Tuesday.

mts6800 · 05-17-2009, 12:53 AM

First, if the court finds that Ferrari has a legal veto power then the FIA is in big trouble.

More interesting is the following quote:

'So how can the FIA make the cost-cutting regulations?', you may well ask. Well the answer, according to Ecclestone, is: "They can't really. The teams allow them." He explains that the FIA has been writing the regulations because the teams haven't opposed it. However, by suggesting the budget cap, Mosley looks to have tipped the balance and the teams are no longer playing ball.

I found here: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=37912

If this article is correct then it's pretty obvious that the FIA is simply Mosley's puppet with respect to F1. Given Mosley's survival of the sex scandal it would appear that they neither have the power or the balls to jettison Mosley.

5vz-fe · 05-17-2009, 02:26 AM

There's no winner in this IMO. It is just bad for F1's reputation. First the spygate, then the liargate, now another one...