F430 Supertest results

[nthfinity]

..and then to have the FIA change the rules to give Enzo a chance again - only to be beaten by the Germans and Porsche - until the rules are again changed to aid Ferrari to win...

tis unfortunate really

That proves my point

except it proves my point.. .Ford won the Championship in 66 and 67... not just the major races :roll: then when they changed the rules to let Enzo win again(factory support was pulled) , privateers running the old GT4 mk II's with the steel-tube british chassis, and smaller engines still beat Ferrari for 2 more years at Lemans.

[RC45]

:prr:

[RAMMIUS]

..and then to have the FIA change the rules to give Enzo a chance again

I would you like to do 2 things :

1. Exactly what rules were changed
2. How did that helped Ferrari

It would be nice to clear things up.

[LotusGT1]

Originally Posted by RAMMIUS If you would be just a little bit smart you would see that I didn`t start the comparo between the F430 vs Z06 , that is 150000 vs 75000 $ :roll:

I never claimed so.

Originally Posted by RAMMIUS The direct competitor of the Z06 it`s gonna be the Ferrari 600 , due to appear in 2006. They have the same layout : big dispalcement, front mounted engines with RWD. How can you compare a high displacement engine like Vette`s 7 litre with a 4.3 litre . A little detail : 7 it`s wayyyy bigger that 4.3 , remember ? I really like to see what you`ll say when Ferrari`s 600 will make the Z06 look slow and badly engineered

For arguments sake the Ferrari 600 will be around $250k-$300k. That was the car you compared with the Z06. About $200k difference.

I almost get insulted when you try to say others "aren't smart".

[nthfinity]

I would you like to do 2 things : 1. Exactly what rules were changed 2. How did that helped Ferrari It would be nice to clear things up.

primarily, the rules limited the engines displacement to take the edge away from Ford... the 'lazy' dohc 427 cid engine was pushing the Ford at 217 mph (faster then anybody else from that year) and it proved reliable.... where the Ferraris just couldnt compare thier high-stress engines to it at all for endurance racing. the FIA then limited the displacement to 5.0 liters/302 CID.... so then Ford pulled its support, and privateers were still able to (just) win Le mans the next few years still before Porsche saw this as an opertunity, and they simply obliterated everything

so... in reality, it "didn't" help ferrari... but it definately took ford out of the picture from LM racing.

[|Nuno|]

The Ring is used as a marketing tool above all else, a gimmick used by Porsche(as well as Audi, BMW and the rest) to market thier cars. Real world? Please, in the real world a car like the CGT is hell to live with, it's suspension too harsh and snappy, its rideheight too low, its clutch almost ridiculous in practicality. The f430 strikes the PERFECT balance between useability and performance. Ill GLADLY give up a half second on a common track I will never be on in order to have the ability to exploit more performance 90% of the time. I think most people understand and agree with this.

Finally someone gets it... This 'Ring time stuff has gotten way out of proportion. I guess GM's, Porsche's and etc. marketing departments did a good job...

[RC45]

Originally Posted by |Nuno| The Ring is used as a marketing tool above all else, a gimmick used by Porsche(as well as Audi, BMW and the rest) to market thier cars. Real world? Please, in the real world a car like the CGT is hell to live with, it's suspension too harsh and snappy, its rideheight too low, its clutch almost ridiculous in practicality. The f430 strikes the PERFECT balance between useability and performance. Ill GLADLY give up a half second on a common track I will never be on in order to have the ability to exploit more performance 90% of the time. I think most people understand and agree with this. Finally someone gets it... This 'Ring time stuff has gotten way out of proportion. I guess GM's, Porsche's and etc. marketing departments did a good job...

Wrong.

Wrong on so many fronts.

The Nurburgring was "the most demanding track" LONG before it became "cool" and "in vogue" to talk about the Nurburgring.

There is a reason Porsche has been creating the some of the greatest all round real world performance cars for the longest time... because if a car is tuned and honed for the Nurburgring. then it is ready for 90% of all other condition in the world - not the other way round.



The reason the Nurburgring is such a good tuning tool, is because it has enough bumps, dips, crests, turns and straights to be sure that any car that does well there is NOT to harshly sprung or dampened...

Again - you guys defeat yourselves with your own logic..

By definition Formula 1 cars are the epitome of performance - correct? Yet they are too harshly sprung and dampened to be usable on general public roads - or the Nurburgring..

[|Nuno|]

Originally Posted by RC45 Originally Posted by |Nuno| The Ring is used as a marketing tool above all else, a gimmick used by Porsche(as well as Audi, BMW and the rest) to market thier cars. Real world? Please, in the real world a car like the CGT is hell to live with, it's suspension too harsh and snappy, its rideheight too low, its clutch almost ridiculous in practicality. The f430 strikes the PERFECT balance between useability and performance. Ill GLADLY give up a half second on a common track I will never be on in order to have the ability to exploit more performance 90% of the time. I think most people understand and agree with this. Finally someone gets it... This 'Ring time stuff has gotten way out of proportion. I guess GM's, Porsche's and etc. marketing departments did a good job... Wrong. Wrong on so many fronts. The Nurburgring was "the most demanding track" LONG before it became "cool" and "in vogue" to talk about the Nurburgring. There is a reason Porsche has been creating the some of the greatest all round real world performance cars for the longest time... because if a car is tuned and honed for the Nurburgring. then it is ready for 90% of all other condition in the world - not the other way round. The reason the Nurburgring is such a good tuning tool, is because it has enough bumps, dips, crests, turns and straights to be sure that any car that does well there is NOT to harshly sprung or dampened... Again - you guys defeat yourselves with your own logic.. By definition Formula 1 cars are the epitome of performance - correct? Yet they are too harshly sprung and dampened to be usable on general public roads - or the Nurburgring..

No need for all that text, I actually agree with most of what you said. What I meant is that most people who quote the 'Ring times do it because of exacly what you said - it's now in vogue. It's the marketing at work. It is out of proportion - in the end, it's just another twisty road.


And by the way, there are some cars that aren't exacly public road friendly (the Radical, for instance), that therefore shouldn't do well on a "real world" track like the 'Ring, and yet they do.


Anyway, this was about the F430 Supertest, and I'm still waiting for a plausible explanition for those trap speeds...

[SFDMALEX]

You boys still fighting about? Good thing I diteched this thread a while ago.....no keep it inline cause I dont want to moderate this thread....you know reading all the junk will probably get me posting in here again hehe

[JoeHahn]

I dont see how it cant be a typo...

Obviously if SA is so anti Ferrari they would make all their times horrible, instead of making just the F430 time horrible. So is their 360 time good or is it shit and the F430 one really shit?

[ice]

Wrong.

Wrong on so many fronts.

The Nurburgring was "the most demanding track" LONG before it became "cool" and "in vogue" to talk about the Nurburgring.

There is a reason Porsche has been creating the some of the greatest all round real world performance cars for the longest time... because if a car is tuned and honed for the Nurburgring. then it is ready for 90% of all other condition in the world - not the other way round.



The reason the Nurburgring is such a good tuning tool, is because it has enough bumps, dips, crests, turns and straights to be sure that any car that does well there is NOT to harshly sprung or dampened...

Again - you guys defeat yourselves with your own logic..

By definition Formula 1 cars are the epitome of performance - correct? Yet they are too harshly sprung and dampened to be usable on general public roads - or the Nurburgring..

[/quote]

Ok, go easy there RC. The ring isnt some absolute authority, like I said it is only one track, no matter how long. And as I said before, although the ring contributes to a great car, it is far from neccesary when talking about road cars. It is undebatable how good the F430 is, not a single negative comment anywhere about the way it drives, yet it doesnt excel on the ring itself. That HARDLY factors in at all because its strengths lie in different places. To be fast on the ring, you need to compromise on certain aspects of the car, because the ring has many different and varying sections. By default, the porsches strike a balance that is great for the RING, but not neccesarily all tracks, or all roads. This logic pertains to all tracks, especially Firorano. But that is also the reason why no manufactuer tests only in one area. You really think the majority of Porsche development is on the Ring, and not REAL "REAL WORLD" roads? Youd be a fool to think so. And 90%? Whered you get that figure?

Logic is an interesting thing. You cannot assume that because a car is fast on the ring that it is a useful, all encompassing performer everywhere else, and the CGT exemplifies this completely. The Enzo is regularly referred to, along with the F430, as the most accesible supercars made. Isnt this what the Ring is supposed to achieve, but clearly hasnt in the CGT's case? I understand the RIng is a very useful tool, but it is not the most important one in developing the car, and judging by the ways Ferraris have handled lately, not even neccesary in all cases.

The point I want to make is about as intuitive as a point can get. The ring is not exlusive in its conditions becuase so many other great cars, which are just as fast on real roads, were made without any use of it.

Hell, look at the 550 Marenllo, a car which is amazing in real world conditions and has been recognized as a benchmark for nearly a decade.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by ice And as I said before, although the ring contributes to a great car, it is far from neccesary when talking about road cars.

Actually is is nescessary - especially when talking about road cars..

Originally Posted by ice It is undebatable how good the F430 is, not a single negative comment anywhere about the way it drives,

Simply because it is "in vogue" to worship Ferrari without question.. - the F430 is slow, overweight and over priced - for the performance... -- but correctly priced for prestige and poser value

Originally Posted by ice yet it doesnt excel on the ring itself. That HARDLY factors in at all because its strengths lie in different places. To be fast on the ring, you need to compromise on certain aspects of the car, because the ring has many different and varying sections. By default, the porsches strike a balance that is great for the RING, but not neccesarily all tracks, or all roads. This logic pertains to all tracks, especially Firorano. But that is also the reason why no manufactuer tests only in one area. You really think the majority of Porsche development is on the Ring, and not REAL "REAL WORLD" roads? Youd be a fool to think so. And 90%? Whered you get that figure?

There is no other track that encompasses as many general public road surface types, as the Nurburgring - this is not debateable

The final analysis of the development effort that goes into a road going Porsche, I am sure is measured in a large part how well the road car does there -- and the autobahn, and even the South Loop - but instead of guessing, lets ask St Anger...

I will be very surprised to find out that the Nurburgring track does not play a dominant part in the handling development of any road going Porsche - because if it doesn't, then the fcat the car does well there is just more testament to how well Porsche engneers are

Originally Posted by ice Logic is an interesting thing. You cannot assume that because a car is fast on the ring that it is a useful, all encompassing performer everywhere else, and the CGT exemplifies this completely. The Enzo is regularly referred to, along with the F430, as the most accesible supercars made.

You really believe the Enzo is a more "everyday" car than the CGT? And puhlease - Ferrari may be good, but how can you even place the F430 and the Enzo in the same category? The F430 is far from a supercar

Originally Posted by ice The point I want to make is about as intuitive as a point can get. The ring is not exlusive in its conditions becuase so many other great cars, which are just as fast on real roads, were made without any use of it.

And this shows when you take those so-caled great cars and thrash them through the country side - you may or may not end up in a ditch..

Oh -and if the Nurburgring was not used to tune and develop what-ever car you cra to name that is a great all-round handling car, some place else that was as varied and diverse as the Ring is used.

One thing is for sure, you cannot get a great handing car without track and road time to do the R&D - test and tune exists for a reason

This fact is borne out by how the F430 turned out to be much slower than most had hoped - it seems that the F430 failed to shine on a public road-style track. And don't for a second think that when car magazines etc take a car out for "road tests" they are pushing anywhere near as hard as they can and do at a track - because they don't. So many times what was thught to be a "superb handling car" on the street, turned otu to be a pig near the limits.

Originally Posted by ice Hell, look at the 550 Marenllo, a car which is amazing in real world conditions and has been recognized as a benchmark for nearly a decade.

It is a GT - Grand Touring benchmark - it is far to heavy to be the true handling car people believe it to be - this is why Pro Drive rebuilt the car from the ground up to turn it into a GT racer... the street 550 falls quite a ways short of it's street competiors

The F430 is a great car, but not the "pinnacle" car people hoped it would be

[allanlambo]

Originally Posted by RC45 Originally Posted by ice And as I said before, although the ring contributes to a great car, it is far from neccesary when talking about road cars. Actually is is nescessary - especially when talking about road cars.. Originally Posted by ice It is undebatable how good the F430 is, not a single negative comment anywhere about the way it drives, Simply because it is "in vogue" to worship Ferrari without question.. - the F430 is slow, overweight and over priced - for the performance... -- but correctly priced for prestige and poser value Originally Posted by ice yet it doesnt excel on the ring itself. That HARDLY factors in at all because its strengths lie in different places. To be fast on the ring, you need to compromise on certain aspects of the car, because the ring has many different and varying sections. By default, the porsches strike a balance that is great for the RING, but not neccesarily all tracks, or all roads. This logic pertains to all tracks, especially Firorano. But that is also the reason why no manufactuer tests only in one area. You really think the majority of Porsche development is on the Ring, and not REAL "REAL WORLD" roads? Youd be a fool to think so. And 90%? Whered you get that figure? There is no other track that encompasses as many general public road surface types, as the Nurburgring - this is not debateable The final analysis of the development effort that goes into a road going Porsche, I am sure is measured in a large part how well the road car does there -- and the autobahn, and even the South Loop - but instead of guessing, lets ask St Anger... I will be very surprised to find out that the Nurburgring track does not play a dominant part in the handling development of any road going Porsche - because if it doesn't, then the fcat the car does well there is just more testament to how well Porsche engneers are Originally Posted by ice Logic is an interesting thing. You cannot assume that because a car is fast on the ring that it is a useful, all encompassing performer everywhere else, and the CGT exemplifies this completely. The Enzo is regularly referred to, along with the F430, as the most accesible supercars made. You really believe the Enzo is a more "everyday" car than the CGT? And puhlease - Ferrari may be good, but how can you even place the F430 and the Enzo in the same category? The F430 is far from a supercar Originally Posted by ice The point I want to make is about as intuitive as a point can get. The ring is not exlusive in its conditions becuase so many other great cars, which are just as fast on real roads, were made without any use of it. And this shows when you take those so-caled great cars and thrash them through the country side - you may or may not end up in a ditch.. Oh -and if the Nurburgring was not used to tune and develop what-ever car you cra to name that is a great all-round handling car, some place else that was as varied and diverse as the Ring is used. One thing is for sure, you cannot get a great handing car without track and road time to do the R&D - test and tune exists for a reason This fact is borne out by how the F430 turned out to be much slower than most had hoped - it seems that the F430 failed to shine on a public road-style track. And don't for a second think that when car magazines etc take a car out for "road tests" they are pushing anywhere near as hard as they can and do at a track - because they don't. So many times what was thught to be a "superb handling car" on the street, turned otu to be a pig near the limits. Originally Posted by ice Hell, look at the 550 Marenllo, a car which is amazing in real world conditions and has been recognized as a benchmark for nearly a decade. It is a GT - Grand Touring benchmark - it is far to heavy to be the true handling car people believe it to be - this is why Pro Drive rebuilt the car from the ground up to turn it into a GT racer... the street 550 falls quite a ways short of it's street competiors The F430 is a great car, but not the "pinnacle" car people hoped it would be

Rc45, yet again talking out your ass.

This will be the first time you will catch me praising a Ferrari in a long time. Having recently returned from vacation, and having spent some time not only in a 430, but a 430 F1, and a 6 speed, not to mention my test drive of the Bugatti Veyron. Anyways, calling the Ferrari slow is ludicrous. But first the drive of the Ferrari, I will stick with the F1, as the 6 speed was dissapointing, while the F1 is superb. The transmission is flawless, much better than the early Gallardo Egear ( this has changed with the new 06 Gallardos though, I drove that too). The shifts are lightning fast, the ergonomics of the car are great, although i prefer the levels of support you have in the Gallardo. The noise from the 430 is also glorious. To give you some real world insite as to the speed of the 430, it is faster straightline than an early Gallardo. I was also able to race my modified Lotus Esprit, which just barely nudges my friends Gallardo in a straightline race, against my buddies bone stock 430 F1. In an identical race where my Esprit beats an 04 Z06 by 3 car lengths, a Gallardo by 1/4 car ( his front bumper is at my door) and a Viper SRT10 by 1 car length, from 30mph to 130mph, the Ferrari 430 beat me by atleast 5 car lengths. Inmo, from a roll, the 430 will run closely with a new C6 Z06, I think the C6 will still edge it out, but barely. Real world dyno results of the 430. Bone stock dynoed 435rwhp. Also as a measure, I raced the same 430 in my bone stock Murcielago from 50-130 mph, and the Murcielago beats it by approx 1- 1 1/2 car lengths. As speeds increase, no doubt the Murcielago would pull harder, but starting at 50mph, the Murci is really loafing along in 2nd gear.

Now the Gallardo SE, really is all together a totally different animal than the early Gallardo. When I first drove a Gallardo Egear, I walked away knowing I definitely wanted a 6 speed. The new Egear, is fantastic, shifts as good as, or better than the 430. One thing I do like better on the 430, is that you do not hear the pump actuators on the F1 as you do on the Egear. In outright speed, I dont know if the SE is faster than the 430, but it is atleast its equal. With the Se, given the choice between the 430 and SE, I would choose the SE. Unfortunately for me, I wont be getting either as I have an 06 Pearl White Gallardo Spyder on order.

Now RC45, please give your review of the Buggatti Veyron, so I can compare that with my actually driving it.



P.S I am a wanker, I crave cock like a dog craves sweet candy. My dick is so small I bang fat chicks without any penetration.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by allanlambo Originally Posted by RC45 Originally Posted by ice And as I said before, although the ring contributes to a great car, it is far from neccesary when talking about road cars. Actually is is nescessary - especially when talking about road cars.. Originally Posted by ice It is undebatable how good the F430 is, not a single negative comment anywhere about the way it drives, Simply because it is "in vogue" to worship Ferrari without question.. - the F430 is slow, overweight and over priced - for the performance... -- but correctly priced for prestige and poser value Originally Posted by ice yet it doesnt excel on the ring itself. That HARDLY factors in at all because its strengths lie in different places. To be fast on the ring, you need to compromise on certain aspects of the car, because the ring has many different and varying sections. By default, the porsches strike a balance that is great for the RING, but not neccesarily all tracks, or all roads. This logic pertains to all tracks, especially Firorano. But that is also the reason why no manufactuer tests only in one area. You really think the majority of Porsche development is on the Ring, and not REAL "REAL WORLD" roads? Youd be a fool to think so. And 90%? Whered you get that figure? There is no other track that encompasses as many general public road surface types, as the Nurburgring - this is not debateable The final analysis of the development effort that goes into a road going Porsche, I am sure is measured in a large part how well the road car does there -- and the autobahn, and even the South Loop - but instead of guessing, lets ask St Anger... I will be very surprised to find out that the Nurburgring track does not play a dominant part in the handling development of any road going Porsche - because if it doesn't, then the fcat the car does well there is just more testament to how well Porsche engneers are Originally Posted by ice Logic is an interesting thing. You cannot assume that because a car is fast on the ring that it is a useful, all encompassing performer everywhere else, and the CGT exemplifies this completely. The Enzo is regularly referred to, along with the F430, as the most accesible supercars made. You really believe the Enzo is a more "everyday" car than the CGT? And puhlease - Ferrari may be good, but how can you even place the F430 and the Enzo in the same category? The F430 is far from a supercar Originally Posted by ice The point I want to make is about as intuitive as a point can get. The ring is not exlusive in its conditions becuase so many other great cars, which are just as fast on real roads, were made without any use of it. And this shows when you take those so-caled great cars and thrash them through the country side - you may or may not end up in a ditch.. Oh -and if the Nurburgring was not used to tune and develop what-ever car you cra to name that is a great all-round handling car, some place else that was as varied and diverse as the Ring is used. One thing is for sure, you cannot get a great handing car without track and road time to do the R&D - test and tune exists for a reason This fact is borne out by how the F430 turned out to be much slower than most had hoped - it seems that the F430 failed to shine on a public road-style track. And don't for a second think that when car magazines etc take a car out for "road tests" they are pushing anywhere near as hard as they can and do at a track - because they don't. So many times what was thught to be a "superb handling car" on the street, turned otu to be a pig near the limits. Originally Posted by ice Hell, look at the 550 Marenllo, a car which is amazing in real world conditions and has been recognized as a benchmark for nearly a decade. It is a GT - Grand Touring benchmark - it is far to heavy to be the true handling car people believe it to be - this is why Pro Drive rebuilt the car from the ground up to turn it into a GT racer... the street 550 falls quite a ways short of it's street competiors The F430 is a great car, but not the "pinnacle" car people hoped it would be Rc45, yet again talking out your ass. This will be the first time you will catch me praising a Ferrari in a long time. Having recently returned from vacation, and having spent some time not only in a 430, but a 430 F1, and a 6 speed, not to mention my test drive of the Bugatti Veyron. Anyways, calling the Ferrari slow is ludicrous. But first the drive of the Ferrari, I will stick with the F1, as the 6 speed was dissapointing, while the F1 is superb. The transmission is flawless, much better than the early Gallardo Egear ( this has changed with the new 06 Gallardos though, I drove that too). The shifts are lightning fast, the ergonomics of the car are great, although i prefer the levels of support you have in the Gallardo. The noise from the 430 is also glorious. To give you some real world insite as to the speed of the 430, it is faster straightline than an early Gallardo. I was also able to race my modified Lotus Esprit, which just barely nudges my friends Gallardo in a straightline race, against my buddies bone stock 430 F1. In an identical race where my Esprit beats an 04 Z06 by 3 car lengths, a Gallardo by 1/4 car ( his front bumper is at my door) and a Viper SRT10 by 1 car length, from 30mph to 130mph, the Ferrari 430 beat me by atleast 5 car lengths. Inmo, from a roll, the 430 will run closely with a new C6 Z06, I think the C6 will still edge it out, but barely. Real world dyno results of the 430. Bone stock dynoed 435rwhp. Also as a measure, I raced the same 430 in my bone stock Murcielago from 50-130 mph, and the Murcielago beats it by approx 1- 1 1/2 car lengths. As speeds increase, no doubt the Murcielago would pull harder, but starting at 50mph, the Murci is really loafing along in 2nd gear. Now the Gallardo SE, really is all together a totally different animal than the early Gallardo. When I first drove a Gallardo Egear, I walked away knowing I definitely wanted a 6 speed. The new Egear, is fantastic, shifts as good as, or better than the 430. One thing I do like better on the 430, is that you do not hear the pump actuators on the F1 as you do on the Egear. In outright speed, I dont know if the SE is faster than the 430, but it is atleast its equal. With the Se, given the choice between the 430 and SE, I would choose the SE. Unfortunately for me, I wont be getting either as I have an 06 Pearl White Gallardo Spyder on order. Now RC45, please give your review of the Buggatti Veyron, so I can compare that with my actually driving it. P.S I am a wanker, I crave cock like a dog craves sweet candy. My dick is so small I bang fat chicks without any penetration.

Is this all you fragile ego is good for?

Name dropping and bragging?

You sadly live for "online justification" - please fukc off back to where you came from.

I don't recall you being part of the previous conversation - if I need you head to rest my beer on while you blow me I'll give you a call.

[allanlambo]

Originally Posted by RC45 Originally Posted by allanlambo Originally Posted by RC45 Originally Posted by ice And as I said before, although the ring contributes to a great car, it is far from neccesary when talking about road cars. Actually is is nescessary - especially when talking about road cars.. Originally Posted by ice It is undebatable how good the F430 is, not a single negative comment anywhere about the way it drives, Simply because it is "in vogue" to worship Ferrari without question.. - the F430 is slow, overweight and over priced - for the performance... -- but correctly priced for prestige and poser value Originally Posted by ice yet it doesnt excel on the ring itself. That HARDLY factors in at all because its strengths lie in different places. To be fast on the ring, you need to compromise on certain aspects of the car, because the ring has many different and varying sections. By default, the porsches strike a balance that is great for the RING, but not neccesarily all tracks, or all roads. This logic pertains to all tracks, especially Firorano. But that is also the reason why no manufactuer tests only in one area. You really think the majority of Porsche development is on the Ring, and not REAL "REAL WORLD" roads? Youd be a fool to think so. And 90%? Whered you get that figure? There is no other track that encompasses as many general public road surface types, as the Nurburgring - this is not debateable The final analysis of the development effort that goes into a road going Porsche, I am sure is measured in a large part how well the road car does there -- and the autobahn, and even the South Loop - but instead of guessing, lets ask St Anger... I will be very surprised to find out that the Nurburgring track does not play a dominant part in the handling development of any road going Porsche - because if it doesn't, then the fcat the car does well there is just more testament to how well Porsche engneers are Originally Posted by ice Logic is an interesting thing. You cannot assume that because a car is fast on the ring that it is a useful, all encompassing performer everywhere else, and the CGT exemplifies this completely. The Enzo is regularly referred to, along with the F430, as the most accesible supercars made. You really believe the Enzo is a more "everyday" car than the CGT? And puhlease - Ferrari may be good, but how can you even place the F430 and the Enzo in the same category? The F430 is far from a supercar Originally Posted by ice The point I want to make is about as intuitive as a point can get. The ring is not exlusive in its conditions becuase so many other great cars, which are just as fast on real roads, were made without any use of it. And this shows when you take those so-caled great cars and thrash them through the country side - you may or may not end up in a ditch.. Oh -and if the Nurburgring was not used to tune and develop what-ever car you cra to name that is a great all-round handling car, some place else that was as varied and diverse as the Ring is used. One thing is for sure, you cannot get a great handing car without track and road time to do the R&D - test and tune exists for a reason This fact is borne out by how the F430 turned out to be much slower than most had hoped - it seems that the F430 failed to shine on a public road-style track. And don't for a second think that when car magazines etc take a car out for "road tests" they are pushing anywhere near as hard as they can and do at a track - because they don't. So many times what was thught to be a "superb handling car" on the street, turned otu to be a pig near the limits. Originally Posted by ice Hell, look at the 550 Marenllo, a car which is amazing in real world conditions and has been recognized as a benchmark for nearly a decade. It is a GT - Grand Touring benchmark - it is far to heavy to be the true handling car people believe it to be - this is why Pro Drive rebuilt the car from the ground up to turn it into a GT racer... the street 550 falls quite a ways short of it's street competiors The F430 is a great car, but not the "pinnacle" car people hoped it would be Rc45, yet again talking out your ass. This will be the first time you will catch me praising a Ferrari in a long time. Having recently returned from vacation, and having spent some time not only in a 430, but a 430 F1, and a 6 speed, not to mention my test drive of the Bugatti Veyron. Anyways, calling the Ferrari slow is ludicrous. But first the drive of the Ferrari, I will stick with the F1, as the 6 speed was dissapointing, while the F1 is superb. The transmission is flawless, much better than the early Gallardo Egear ( this has changed with the new 06 Gallardos though, I drove that too). The shifts are lightning fast, the ergonomics of the car are great, although i prefer the levels of support you have in the Gallardo. The noise from the 430 is also glorious. To give you some real world insite as to the speed of the 430, it is faster straightline than an early Gallardo. I was also able to race my modified Lotus Esprit, which just barely nudges my friends Gallardo in a straightline race, against my buddies bone stock 430 F1. In an identical race where my Esprit beats an 04 Z06 by 3 car lengths, a Gallardo by 1/4 car ( his front bumper is at my door) and a Viper SRT10 by 1 car length, from 30mph to 130mph, the Ferrari 430 beat me by atleast 5 car lengths. Inmo, from a roll, the 430 will run closely with a new C6 Z06, I think the C6 will still edge it out, but barely. Real world dyno results of the 430. Bone stock dynoed 435rwhp. Also as a measure, I raced the same 430 in my bone stock Murcielago from 50-130 mph, and the Murcielago beats it by approx 1- 1 1/2 car lengths. As speeds increase, no doubt the Murcielago would pull harder, but starting at 50mph, the Murci is really loafing along in 2nd gear. Now the Gallardo SE, really is all together a totally different animal than the early Gallardo. When I first drove a Gallardo Egear, I walked away knowing I definitely wanted a 6 speed. The new Egear, is fantastic, shifts as good as, or better than the 430. One thing I do like better on the 430, is that you do not hear the pump actuators on the F1 as you do on the Egear. In outright speed, I dont know if the SE is faster than the 430, but it is atleast its equal. With the Se, given the choice between the 430 and SE, I would choose the SE. Unfortunately for me, I wont be getting either as I have an 06 Pearl White Gallardo Spyder on order. Now RC45, please give your review of the Buggatti Veyron, so I can compare that with my actually driving it. Is this all you fragile ego is good for? Name dropping and bragging? You sadly live for "online justification" - please fukc off back to where you came from. I don't recall you being part of the previous conversation - if I need you head to rest my beer on while you blow me I'll give you a call.

All you can do, is talk ou tof your ass, and post your gay thoughts. Hows your Z06? whats that, like an 18k car now? Ill trade you 1/2 my watch for it?