motor

BADMIHAI · 11-26-2003, 04:10 PM

Judging by those stats, I don't see how the GTO can be a rivel for Ferrari...

graywolf624 · 11-26-2003, 05:59 PM

"if its trying to compete with the BMW then it needs to stop, because it will never be as good as a BMW. The 3 series in non M form may not be fast, but it sure as hell is more refined. And it is competing with the Mustang, because it is scedulaed to only run for 3 years,. it should be here by end of December, or beggining of 2004, add 3 years to 2004, and thats 2007 and thats when the Firebird returns.
"

First off the firebird isn't comming back. Second off the gto is not scheduled to be only run for 3 years. Knowing a GM exec has its advantages, one of them is knowing they have yet to decide exactly when the camaro is comming back or when the gto run will be done.

As for the bmw thing, keep in mind the 3 series doesnt have the gtos performance.

"Judging by those stats, I don't see how the GTO can be a rivel for Ferrari...
"
I really hope this was a jk.

troskap · 11-26-2003, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by BADMIHAI

Judging by those stats, I don't see how the GTO can be a rivel for Ferrari...

Errr... rival for a Ferrari? For Ferrari's sake, I HOPE this car isn't a rival for the Ferrari, otherwise Ferrari has more coming to it

Comparing the GTO to practically any Ferrari is like trying to see if the slingshot can keep up with the handgun - no chance in hell! Putting a car that will cost around the $30K-$35K that it's supposedly going to run versus a car that runs somewhere in the 6 digit range is a bit of a push

Frankly, there's only one real competitor that I think Pontiac's worried about keeping up with, and it's name is M-U-S-T-A-N-G. Pontiac lost a great deal when it had to retire the Trans Am/Firebird line, whether it be for the inability to meet safety specs, the super-low sales thanks to some rather lame lack of advertising, or whatnot. It's trying to spring back into the market, once again. If it were gunning for Porsche and Ferrari, I don't think Pontiac would be pricing this as 'low' as it is. (And on that point, good luck, Corvette - don't get left behind too far at the starting line...)

I imagine in Europe, this car's going to get a lukewarm reception in it's Vauxhall guise. Over here, with our overly politicized, overly environmentalized government systems, most of the cars you can enjoy in Europe never make it over here, or end up being pillowed and pig-heavy versions to safety compromises. (You lucky bastards!) So we tend to get excited at these comparatively bland choices. Pardon our childish glee at such simple fare

graywolf624 · 11-27-2003, 12:20 AM

"Frankly, there's only one real competitor that I think Pontiac's worried about keeping up with, and it's name is M-U-S-T-A-N-G. Pontiac lost a great deal when it had to retire the Trans Am/Firebird line, whether it be for the inability to meet safety specs, the super-low sales thanks to some rather lame lack of advertising, or whatnot. It's trying to spring back into the market, once again. If it were gunning for Porsche and Ferrari, I don't think Pontiac would be pricing this as 'low' as it is. (And on that point, good luck, Corvette - don't get left behind too far at the starting line...)
"

The mustang wont be a competitor to the gto. The gto would out handle the mustang any day of the week and has a far more userful everyday setup. Furthermore, the mustang only has a real market for the v6 and style, 60 percent of sales are v6. For the gto to be its competitor itd have to have a v6 car thats slow and in that price range. Simply put, the buyers looking for a mustang arent going to even look at a gto and vice versa. The buyers of a bmw or other coupe that desires power,luxury, and handling will. There main competition will be bmw (whether you think it succeeds or not is not really what matters). Pontiac has even said as much (not to mention notice the sudden upscale quality of the interior). (And dare I said it, some people have suggested that bmw is now attempting to copy pontiac styling. It could be fairly interesting).

When the camaro comes back the mustang will have a competitor again. As it is now, the gto is gms response to bmw.
Oh and as someone who has inside track on loss of the firebird and camaro. Neither was due to sales. They actually made money on last few years of cars. The issues were 2 fold: The contract with the workers and the factory had come up.(they closed said factory and under contract had to also stop production of the car till at least 2007.
2. The car was due for a remodeling and at the current time a budget had not been affixed to the car.

So heres the deal:
The gto. It will be here for some time, and predicted within 12 months is a judge type version with the 400 hp ls6.
Camaro: 2007 or 2008 it will return to do battle with the mustang. The mustang is only competitive with v6s. Frankly, its not a performance car, its a style car with some performance versions(as can be seen by sales numbers). The camaro was more performance oriented in recent years, but directly competed with the mustang due to its v6 offerings and public perception.
Firebird: Believed to be dead, if it comes back(big if) it will be a name on some other car not a true firebird based on the camaro. This has pretty much been decided

Now I must ask you, what production american car under 35 grand will out handle a gto and out accelerate it? The mustang will get it on acceleration but would be trounced in handling. So whats that leave? The STI and EVO? Not really the same type of cars, they arent even rwd. So whats left? and of those left, how many can seat 4 and has a decent size boot?
I don't like the styling and I wouldnt buy one. But with a 13.62 1/4(according to motor trend) and proven holden handling, you can't beat it well for under 35 grand.

(And on that point, good luck, Corvette - don't get left behind too far at the starting line...)

Trying to figure out what you meant by this? The current zo6 is the best performance buy in the us under 60000 dollars. The damn thing handles really well(I can doubly say this after seeing it at ra over the weekend) and it accelerates balls out. The current version is easier to drive then the viper and competitive in performance numbers.
As for the c6, rumour has it the displacement on demand gen IV smallblock will have 500x500 numbers. The mustang has never and will never compete with the vette.

troskap · 11-27-2003, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by graywolf624

The mustang wont be a competitor to the gto. The gto would out handle the mustang any day of the week and has a far more userful everyday setup. Furthermore, the mustang only has a real market for the v6 and style, 60 percent of sales are v6. For the gto to be its competitor itd have to have a v6 car thats slow and in that price range. Simply put, the buyers looking for a mustang arent going to even look at a gto and vice versa. The buyers of a bmw or other coupe that desires power,luxury, and handling will. There main competition will be bmw (whether you think it succeeds or not is not really what matters). Pontiac has even said as much (not to mention notice the sudden upscale quality of the interior). (And dare I said it, some people have suggested that bmw is now attempting to copy pontiac styling. It could be fairly interesting)..

A V6 car that's slow and in that price range? Sounds like my Grand Prix we're talking about... OK, maybe not so slow

As to the GTO versus BMW, I'll agree your point has some merit to it. Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing it happen. I just think Pontiac would be getting ahead of itself if it's trying to shoot for BMW, at least not for a little while longer yet. The build quality and the interior work is definitely improving, but still needs a bit of work. RIght now, though, the GTO seems quite ready to give the Mustang GT buyers a good change of heart. Stomp on a little of the Mustang's turf first, then we can bring on BMW

Originally Posted by graywolf624

Oh and as someone who has inside track on loss of the firebird and camaro. Neither was due to sales. They actually made money on last few years of cars. The issues were 2 fold: The contract with the workers and the factory had come up.(they closed said factory and under contract had to also stop production of the car till at least 2007.
2. The car was due for a remodeling and at the current time a budget had not been affixed to the car.)

Alright. Sounds pretty logical to me. Won't argue the point - I've heard 50 million other things already.

Originally Posted by graywolf624

(And on that point, good luck, Corvette - don't get left behind too far at the starting line...)

Trying to figure out what you meant by this? The current zo6 is the best performance buy in the us under 60000 dollars. The damn thing handles really well(I can doubly say this after seeing it at ra over the weekend) and it accelerates balls out. The current version is easier to drive then the viper and competitive in performance numbers.
As for the c6, rumour has it the displacement on demand gen IV smallblock will have 500x500 numbers. The mustang has never and will never compete with the vette.

Oh, I do love the Z06. I've had a chance to toss the latest version around on some lovely windy roads a few months ago, and I know the car is downright fantastic - I'd love to get one, if I could put out the money for one. As to the Mustang vs. Vette...that's not the contest I was thinking about. I was a bit more ponderous about how the Vettes would stack up against the latest and greatest of its European counterparts. I'll just smile politely and knowingly the next time someone tries to run the Mustang up on it

graywolf624 · 11-27-2003, 02:33 AM

"A V6 car that's slow and in that price range? Sounds like my Grand Prix we're talking about... OK, maybe not so slow "
I drove a 97 till I totaled it and bought the mazda. So I can empathize.

As for this:
"Alright. Sounds pretty logical to me. Won't argue the point - I've heard 50 million other things already. "

My source on that info is someone high up in gm. As you can see from public record they closed the plant they made the camaro in and the workers were either moved to other plants or laid off. This is also the reason there was no this is your last chance to buy a camaro type marketing. There contract strictly prohibits a new car till 2007, after that.(this also being public record). well we know there working on a car, we have a month and day they will release the car (the release of all the models and closure all lie on the same date, this is not a coincidence), we just don't know what year...
I just hope its soon, I would have bought one had it been out. Instead I have a mazda.

BADMIHAI · 11-27-2003, 06:39 PM

"Judging by those stats, I don't see how the GTO can be a rivel for Ferrari...
"
I really hope this was a jk.

Yes, it was a joke...of course

lambo4levi · 12-21-2003, 08:28 AM

Well when i first heard about this beauty (earlier this year) I got very excited because I am hear about how my uncle had a 1970 GTO Decked out to the balls and I was wanting to know if the new GTO could run the same numbers but as soon as i seen what it looked like i figured it looked somewhat along the lines of the Pontiac Grand Prix and i Love intrest imediatly and am now convinced that this is :fist: shaming 0X the GTO name.

blah · 12-21-2003, 12:14 PM

it is a shame to the GTO name, this car should never be called the GTO, its GMs attempt to make a quick buck off the name. And gray, im sorry but i still believe the GTO is trying to compete with the Cobras/Mach 1s of the Mustang lineup, look at the price. If it really was trying to compete with BMW, GM has a shit load of work to do. Also if GM doesnt bring back the trans am, then i will just stay with a mustang when i graduate college. It would be stupid to bring back the maro, and not the trans am.

pimrusis · 12-21-2003, 11:10 PM

I don't want to sound mean here, but can't we do better than the GTO? Right now it is a Grand Prix with a bigger engine and a manual gearchange. Why couldn't they pull a more old-school design out of their collective hats (like the Thunderbird modeled after my 57').

lambo4levi · 12-22-2003, 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by lambo4levi

... but as soon as i seen what it looked like i figured it looked somewhat along the lines of the Pontiac Grand Prix and i Love intrest imediatly and am now convinced that this is :fist: shaming 0X the GTO name.

sorry i meant to say Lost but all along the same lines making the GTO Rival the Trans-Am WS6(the performance package) would be attributing to the sale of this car. Besides who wants to drive a manual Grand Prix with a "New" name? very bad call on the way to bring back this car

blah · 12-22-2003, 02:29 AM

The trans am was the best thing pontiac had going for its excitement image, but then GM killed it, now they bring back this puss car that a mustang GT could probably hang with depending on which review of the GTO you agree with the most. said a car that cost almost 10 grand less, has about 75 horses less, and 50 lbs of torque less, can hang with it. I bet the SRT-4 could probably run it.

enigmatic · 02-19-2004, 09:57 AM

not sure if the GTO's 6spd is any different to that of our Monaro.. but at 100kmh/60mph in 6th your doing around 1500rpm.. not sure what the aerodynamics are like, but regardless -- with that sort of gearing and power, it should have much trouble cruising past 155mph.
in the uk, the Vauxal Monaro (another re-badge) in highpower spec is actually limited to 178mph.. so there you go 8)

sads · 02-21-2004, 03:57 AM

ur comparing a supercar to a performance car every one knows whos gonna win

hotgemini · 02-22-2004, 05:36 PM

With regards to future 'go-fast' models, I suggest any of you naive and ignorant americans should have a quick look here or really at any of the HSV range and ask yourselves how hard it would be for Bob Lutz to make a 'parts bin special' which, in all honesty is what your GTO is in the first place, and none the worse for that.

Note that the HSV GTO (not to be confused with the pontiac GTO which is far closer to a base model Holden Monaro) plays 2nd fiddle to the HSV GTS, the updated version of which is due for launch fairly soon.

As far as aftermarket parts, there is wealth of knowledge in australia for upgrades for the pontiac GTO. Whiteline already has a distribution network in the US, so they'd be a wise choice for suspension parts. Have a look around CAPA for upgrade packs including their two 520kw upgrades. If you're after brakes, anything up to 380mm stoppers with seperate alloy mounting bells and huge multi-piston calipers are available, try www.harrop.com.au

All thats left for the americans is to make the thing uglier with tasteless fibreglass crap.