Read em and weep...

[graywolf624]

now do you feel better that it takes a modified vette to do better then a standard 430??

How the hell is a car sold at the plant modified? Its a seperate model maybe, but neither the stradale or the zo6 are modified. Neither gm nor ferrari are tuner companies or individuals changing others cars here.

and when you speak of price, you forget that the vette is HUGELY MASS PRODUCED where as the 430 isnt, and that going to play a large part in the price of the car also the vette is hardly a total package where as the 430 is. in clarkson's words "its damn perfect" or something along those lines.

Non mass produced only makes a difference if you want a car that no one else has, otherwise its also moot. As for total package thats what is called a matter of opinion. In this case its also one given by a person who a) hasn't reviewed the vette. b) is well known to be bias.

also lets not forget that each car manufacture has different goals to achieve and i highly doubt that Ferrari's goal is "lets do better then chevy" where as i would bet my life one of chevy's goals is "lets do better then Ferrari", its typical american ego.

Actually ferrari does say lets do better then its competitors. Not necessarily Chevy. It isn't about ego, its that to sell a product in this world of ours you have to develop a better product then the other guy. Take a simple marketing class and you'll learn that.

For the record I love ferraris.. I dream of owning a 308, irrational though it is. That doesn't change whether the zo6 can be compared to the f430. As for the outcome, I'm not going to comment cause I dont have to make that decision (sadly)

[RC45]

Originally Posted by artypossum Excuse me, has anyone mentioned which car would post a better time on a curvy mkontain pass?

You are excused - and at the current time we have a 7m42s from tyhe Nurburgring... as close to such a mountain pass as we have at the moment - and are awaiting the F430 time for a Northloop lap.

But don't hold your breath, the F360 was no where near the C5 Z.. and the F360CS again matched it.

So whether you like it or not, it seems that each generation of Z06 and FxxxCS are pretty evenly matched...

You could call them "performance peers" - but I am sure you won't..

******

BTW.... this thread was not conceived to start a "Z06 beats all" debate. Because anyone with a brain and a pulse knows this is not true...

The thread was simply a way to post a set of numbers that until now have always shown "other" makes at the top of the list... But not any more..

[|Nuno|]

But don't hold your breath, the F360 was no where near the C5 Z.. and the F360CS again matched it.

True, but what you seem to forget is that in the Ferrari's case we're talking about an independent magazine test, which by the way (just like the C6's test, had pretty poor acceleration numbers). The C5 Z06's 7:56 time, on the other hand, is a factory claimed time with a factory driver and car. Not quite the same.

Not that I'm doubting GM's claims, but it simply isn't a good basis for comparison... Different drivers, different day, etc... Even more on a track like the 'Ring, being as long and demanding as it is.


Not that I'm putting the C6 Z06 down. It's a great deal, at least in the U.S. If you're only interested in numbers, it's the way to go. No questions about it. With that said, it lacks (to me) many things that a Ferrari has to offer, like the sound, feel, styling, etc...




On a side note, all this Vette talk got me thinking... I mean, I dream of owning a Ferrari one day but I doubt I'll be able to afford a newer (faster) model. But I'm also interested in track events, where a fast car would be ideal. A cheap fast car that could be also used on the road, but not an everyday car - a track beast, just without all the transportation hassles... Over here, the Vette costs about 115 000 € and has a baaad image - no one will buy it, so the depreciation will be crazy. So yeah, I kinda see myself buying a used one in 6 or 7 years...


Just how bad is the depreciation in the U.S.?

[RC45]

Originally Posted by |Nuno| Over here, the Vette costs about 115 000 € and has a baaad image - no one will buy it, so the depreciation will be crazy. So yeah, I kinda see myself buying a used one in 6 or 7 years... Just how bad is the depreciation in the U.S.?

Well - the people who want Z06's in Europe imported them at great expense since the end of 2000. (the 2001 model) Some new, some used.

Some are stock, some are modded. Some mild.. and some 800rwhp+ wild..

The 115,000 € is the C6 Z06 you are referring to.. correct? Well - first off, the car hasn't had a chance to be bought and sold and used value determined,but overall for what it is and the folks that buy it, it will probably see the same depreciation over time that F-Cars and P-Cars suffer from.

You will be alarmed to see how badly F-Cars and P-Cars depreciate in Europe compared to how they keep their value here.

It's all about the scarcity and demand - right?

The fact that the overall quality of an F550 is as good as an F360 Vert seems to make no difference to the market place here.

The F360 Vert still costs more used, than a similar generation F550 (or F575 for that matter).

The 550 cost $220,000 new.. yet you saw them sitting used on dealer floors for $150,000 not selling while a used F360 carried a sticker of $260,000+ during the F360 feeding frenzy.

And truth be told, the F550 is the better more traditional Ferrari than the F360 any day.

So - back to the C6 Z06, you will still need money - lots of it, to get one, used or new. Set your sights on importing a used C5 Z06 from the USA and have a blast for the next 7 years

[|Nuno|]

Well - the people who want Z06's in Europe imported them at great expense since the end of 2000. (the 2001 model) . Some new, some used.

Yeah, pretty much all of the Vettes that I've seen over here are imported from Germany. That's what makes them cheap - you pay less taxes the older the car is, and few people want Vettes. Hell, I bet that if I walked down the street right now and asked people about the Vette, out of 10, maybe 1 or 2 would know what it is...

The 115,000 € is the C6 Z06 you are referring to.. correct?

Yep.

You will be alarmed to see how badly F-Cars and P-Cars depreciate in Europe compared to how they keep their value here.

Yeah, I know. You U.S. people are weird. I mean, I've seen F430's selling for $300K and more. Seriously, I love the car and would buy it if I had the money, but $300K?! That's just crazy. Again, if I had the money, I could walk into the Ferrari dealership tomorrow and buy a new F430 without the waiting list crap. Gotta love Europe. 8)

And over here, some Porsches actually hold their value better than the Ferraris. The 993 is a good example - it has kept its value very well. The 996, unless it's the Turbo, not so much.

The fact that the overall quality of an F550 is as good as an F360 Vert seems to make no difference to the market place here. The F360 Vert still costs more used, than a similar generation F550 (or F575 for that matter). The 550 cost $220,000 new.. yet you saw them sitting used on dealer floors for $150,000 not selling while a used F360 carried a sticker of $260,000+ during the F360 feeding frenzy. And truth be told, the F50 is the better more traditional Ferrari than the F360 any day

Again, over here things are a bit different, but I see your point. As a used car, the 360 is a terrible deal. The 550, on the other hand, is almost a bargain.

But here in Portugal, the GT's hold their value a litle better, though the V8's still have the uper hand. Which is strange, if you think that the 12's are rarer and at least as good.

A good 2000 550 will set you about 130, 000 €, while a Modena of the same year will be around 120, 000 € (without options). Not bad, if you consider that these cars actually get driven. But in the U.S., you could sell a 2004 360 Spider now for what you bought it. That doesn't happen here.

And in Portugal there's other thing that helps Ferrari's resale values. They are RARE. So far this year, only 14 new cars have been sold.

So - back to the C6 Z06, you will still need money - lots of it, to get one, used or new. Set your sights on importing a used C5 Z06 from the USA and have a blast for the next 7 years

Yeah, for sure. A 2002 C6 Cabrio goes for about 65/70 K €, with all the options. But new, it costs around 100, 000 €... That's crazy depreciation, but still a lot of money.


But I'm just thinking out loud, really. I don't even have a license yet... It's just an idea that pleases me - having a street legal track car. The Vette is just another option... And for now, studying the market is all I can do.
Besides having good grades to get a job with a decent pay check, obviously.



And sorry for the off topic. ops:

[graywolf624]

they are only a US engine far back as lot of them if not most have been developed further to make them better engines...

The same goes for the handling brembo. The US has had good handling cars for longer then you give credit. (the c4 back in the 80s and the camaro of the time were equivellent to the porsches and things in their price range, albeit a focus more stiffly sprung hurting wet weather). I'd say youd have to at least go back to the early 80s maybe further.. The american muscle car hasnt been typical in my lifetime. Now if you want to claim credit for the tr6s and such from the 70s go ahead.. But that means the Americans get credit for the engines too. Several of your favorite cars nowadays were designed by Americans too, globalization kinda makes defining a country where the product comes from useless. In fact I wouldnt give credit to America or any other country or say any has the best car development from a design standpoint in todays day and age. That being said if you say something moronic like you did about handling Im going to hit you back on it. Or do we need to talk about how the designer from several key new cars in europe are American, there made in mexico, parts come from germany, ect.

but GM are more than Chevrolet and thats one brand under the great GM umbrella and the only true performance car would be the vette, even if there are hairdresser editions of that one too.... Ferrari are a dedicated performance company under Fiat and not the same as GM at all.....

Hence gm should be compared to fiat as I said.. Not ferrari.

Though gm as a whole does have other performance cars/sports cars:
vx770, monaro, the new solstice, cadillac cts-v (to name but a few)

[Sir_GT]

Originally Posted by RC45 Originally Posted by Sir_GT Originally Posted by RC45 Originally Posted by saadie Originally Posted by Ronin005 im not trying to be funny but where do the Enzo and Zonda go on that list?? and the CCR Probably exactly where cars that cost MILLIONS of dollars should go Well, I'm not trying to be funny, but wouldn't a properly engined Elfin Clubman (or a Type-R engined Ariel Atom) smoke everything on that list? Sure.. up to 150mph.. WHich means that they would dominate the race for - oh say.. 17 seconds

Actually, IIRC, a properly engined Elfin Clubman uses the same small-block V8 that the Corvette uses, and Elfin said that they can tune it all the way up to 800 bhp. IIRC, this is what the boys behind the Ultima also say.

So theoretically, they should smoke everything on that list. Full stop.

...but, as you've said... although you can use a Clubman daily, (and an ultima to some respect) I do not actually think they have a boot. At least not one the size of the Vette's. So as an overall package, I must say the Vette really does have a strong case going for it.

Oh, and there is actually another car that matches the Vette's 0-60 time, also has a boot, is similarly priced, AND has rear seats.

It's called an EVO VIII FQ-400.

[graywolf624]

but the you dont need to go further back in time on the vette than pre RC`s and they where pigs in the handling department....

False.. the corvette from the 80s handled well compared to its competition at the time. Now granted the cars of the 80s all were behind at that time, but thats another story. Youd have to go back to the stingrays to find a poor handling vette for its time period. Put an 80s corvette against almost any 80s car of remotely close price on a race track and it will hold its own.

I dont need to go all the way back, but if we are to do that we end up with the European cars as the first ones anyway so........

If we were doing that I could mention where almost all the european manufacturers failed and are owned by the Americans now.. Or that the American sales have always dwarfed the europeans.. But yet again, Im trying to show you how moronic that is, cause there is no American car anymore.. Or european car anymore.. Or any other car any more.. The ctsv is as much american as is european.. But the new bmws are as much european as they are American. The distinction has blurred and I doubt youll find a single car that has been designed, parts all made, assembled and sold all in the same country.

I just got done reading stories about Americna styling influences on European cars in terms of colors and shapes. The same day I read a story the other way.

Yes maybe GM should be compared to Fiat, but Ferrari should be compared to Chevrolet and then it still would be the poor lonesome Vette against a wolfpack of Ferrari`s who would destroy it as a full package......

Why would anyone compare a mainstream manufacturer with a good car to a primary supercar luxury car manufacturer. A fairer comparison would be fords aston.. I don't like aston, but they are certainly competition for ferrari.

[Neema702]

you know... i sat down and wrote about a page of my argument, and then realized everything I'm about to say has either already been said, or will just add diff, yet similar dimensions to previous arguments that are opinion based, and therefore will never be resolved.

so instead... i would just like to tell RC45 that most car enthusiasts will agree with you in that the Z06 is an AMAZING fucking car. not only can it run with most exotics, but it can smoke cars 2 and 3 times its price. but who gives a shit. YOU DONT COMPARE A Z06 to a Ferrari, Lambo, or any other exotic. They are in 2 diff catagories. most ferrari owners will never walk away from a race, after getting killed by a z06 saying "i wish i had that car." im not sure if i can say the same for the z06 owners, or at least for most z06 owners.

a z06 is bought by somone who cant afford a new ferrari, and would like to run with them if he ever sees one. you dont buy a ferrari so that you can beat the z06's of the world, you buy a ferrari because its a FERRARI. and when i say that, you know what i mean RC45. c'mon man, you know you would love to own a ferrari. you can park it right next to your ferrari slayer

i mean, i think its great that the new Z06 can do a 3.6, and that ferrari claims the F430 does a 4 (3.5 from other sources). but if given the choice, do you think the F1, LeMans, etc... racers of the world would take a Z06 or a F430? and i dont think you can really call them "fanboys."

[graywolf624]

you buy a ferrari because its a FERRARI

That is the definition of fanboy though. Your buying the car for your view of the badge rather then any realworld facts. Not that I see any problem with that cause Id do it myself, but that is the reason why.

[Neema702]

sorry graywolf, i should have elaborated on that point. when i say FERRARI, i dont just mean its popularity and history, im talking about the responsiveness around a corner, im talking about throttle response, im taking about the feel of the clutch, the feel of the shifter, the interior of the car, the looks of the car, etc....

[bmagni]

Originally Posted by RC45" So to once again take a breath of reality, the CAR Corvette took on the Class GT and if I am not mistaken won 2000, 2001, 2002 and then 2004 and then 2005 or something like that? (Can't be bothered to Google these facts.. )

Firs of all its GTS class
2000 was won by a Team Oreca Viper, my favorite GTS cars ever, IMO from 1997-2000, they were the best looking and best performers, in 2000 they were the overall winners of the Daytona 24, first time a GTS did that :shock:

2001,2002 were won by vettes

2003 - Ferrari 550 M

2004, 2005 - vettes again

[graywolf624]

im talking about the responsiveness around a corner, im talking about throttle response, im taking about the feel of the clutch, the feel of the shifter, the interior of the car, the looks of the car, etc....

How do you know the vette doesnt have all but the interior(remembering looks are in the eye of the beholder). Have you driven it? Have you driven the f430?

[RC45]

Originally Posted by Neema702 sorry graywolf, i should have elaborated on that point. when i say FERRARI, i dont just mean its popularity and history, im talking about the responsiveness around a corner, im talking about throttle response, im taking about the feel of the clutch, the feel of the shifter, the interior of the car, the looks of the car, etc....

Where are you in Texas... there is bound to be a Z06 owner near you that will take you for a spin... I'm pretty sure you may have slightly different opinion after some edumacation..

Just because the Z06 is the "poor mans hot rod" doesn't mean it gives up anything to the "image" cars.

[Neema702]

i live in the great city of sugar land, right next to you. and although i dont have the pics or vids to prove it, i have ridden in a C5 Z06, and although ive never even seen the F430 in person, i have ridden in a 360, and i gotta tell you RC45... the Z06 is a beast, but that 360 is something else. the feel of a 360, far outweights the grunt of a Z06.