New Veyron Test

[tforth]

this comes directly from contacts I have at Bugatti, long talks with the test drivers, and time in the car thankyou. The terms I mention are purely objective, and not a slippery slope of "it does better then you would think it does" type crap that ALL the magazines are spewing. What a load of crap, eh? so again, where are the lap times?

Right, ok. Should we quote you as the authority from now on then? I guess I am at a great disadvantage since I rely on the public press, as do most of the rest of the world.

Tell me, why don't you ask your sources for some comparative lap times then. I'm positive that they (Bugatti I mean) did some (more like lots) benchmark testing against other supercars, right? I'm sure your 'authoritative' contacts would have ready access to this vital info. that appears to be mysteriously missing.

As I have stated repeatedly before, I have provided several quotes from credible sources. Furthermore, they were written by people that have been publicly suspicious of the Veyron's performance prior to driving it. They all became converts (regarding its objective performance) after driving it. The only common beef that some of writers have mentioned, is that the Veyron does not have a 'sole' like a CGT or Zonda. That being said, I have not claimed that it does provide this rather subjective attribute. Again, I have provided several sources of 'public domain' evidence to illustrate to any remaining doubters how crushingly capable the Veyron appears to be.

Where is your evidence/data/info/anything other than 'the Veyron is heavy/expensive/has too many cylinders/turbos/radiators/etc., therefore it can't be good', 'I know someone', 'I heard this somewhere', 'someone told me', blah, blah, blah...

'Where's the beef', as the old lady in the Wendy's commercials used to say?

[RC45]

Originally Posted by tforth this comes directly from contacts I have at Bugatti, long talks with the test drivers, and time in the car thankyou. The terms I mention are purely objective, and not a slippery slope of "it does better then you would think it does" type crap that ALL the magazines are spewing. What a load of crap, eh? so again, where are the lap times? Right, ok. Should we quote you as the authority from now on then? I guess I am at a great disadvantage since I rely on the public press, as do most of the rest of the world. Tell me, why don't you ask your sources for some comparative lap times then. I'm positive that they (Bugatti I mean) did some (more like lots) benchmark testing against other supercars, right? I'm sure your 'authoritative' contacts would have ready access to this vital info. that appears to be mysteriously missing. As I have stated repeatedly before, I have provided several quotes from credible sources. Furthermore, they were written by people that have been publicly suspicious of the Veyron's performance prior to driving it. They all became converts (regarding its objective performance) after driving it. The only common beef that some of writers have mentioned, is that the Veyron does not have a 'sole' like a CGT or Zonda. That being said, I have not claimed that it does provide this rather subjective attribute. Again, I have provided several sources of 'public domain' evidence to illustrate to any remaining doubters how crushingly capable the Veyron appears to be. Where is your evidence/data/info/anything other than 'the Veyron is heavy/expensive/has too many cylinders/turbos/radiators/etc., therefore it can't be good', 'I know someone', 'I heard this somewhere', 'someone told me', blah, blah, blah... 'Where's the beef', as the old lady in the Wendy's commercials used to say?

Suffice it to say, this is JabbasWorld, and we are priviledged to have some actual industry insiders as members - and when core members of JW say "the source told me", then "the sourcE" told them.

You may choose to believe this or not, the fact remains insiders have relayed witnessed accounts of various events, cars and behaviours - these are truthful accounts.

Again - choose to believe it or not, no justification needed from our part.

How come the "objective testers" don't have lap times and video of the Veyron beating the CGT and Enzo? Is it possible that it is their own subjectivity getting in the way, and the car only feels faster, but it really is not faster?

I can tell you from personal experience that the 4wd Ruf Yellowbird felt quicker than the RT12... but the numbers showed a different story..

[tforth]

Suffice it to say, this is JabbasWorld, and we are priviledged to have some actual industry insiders as members - and when core members of JW say "the source told me", then "the sourcE" told them. You may choose to believe this or not, the fact remains insiders have relayed witnessed accounts of various events, cars and behaviours - these are truthful accounts. Again - choose to believe it or not, no justification needed from our part. How come the "objective testers" don't have lap times and video of the Veyron beating the CGT and Enzo? Is it possible that it is their own subjectivity getting in the way, and the car only feels faster, but it really is not faster? I can tell you from personal experience that the 4wd Ruf Yellowbird felt quicker than the RT12... but the numbers showed a different story..

Well, I actually work in the 'industry', on both the development and production implementation side. If someone was making some claims that I knew to be false, whether I felt that they were making them up, or because their source was flawed, I would provide everyone the service of 'giving' (neat term that) the relevant facts and not just hearsay. It's not like the comparative data that is mentioned on this thread (but never substantiated) is confidential or anything. Again, put out, or kindly shut up. I don't buy the 'holier than thou' BS!

BTW, since when was the Ruf Yellowbird 4WD?

[RC45]

Originally Posted by tforth Well, I actually work in the 'industry', on both the development and production implementation side.

So you were at the Nurburgring when the C6 Z06 ran it's 7m43s lap then?

And you were privvy to seeing the Veyron overheat its engine, tyres and brakes in one lap then?

Exactly what are you "inside" to then?

Originally Posted by tforth If someone was making some claims that I knew to be false, whether I felt that they were making them up, or because their source was flawed, I would provide everyone the service of 'giving' (neat term that) the relevant facts and not just hearsay.

So know you suspect your own information is "made up" and needs to be refuted?

You just choose to quote super-subjective sources is all

Originally Posted by tforth It's not like the comparative data that is mentioned on this thread (but never substantiated) is confidential or anything. Again, put out, or kindly shut up. I don't buy the 'holier than thou' BS!

You are the one quoted unsubstantiated subjective opinion... and we are simply saying that other people have said and demonstarted different results.

Originally Posted by tforth BTW, since when was the Ruf Yellowbird 4WD?

Oh - as an "insider" I would have thought you knew Ruf will buildwhat ever a customer wants.. even if that means a "matched pair" of one-off's

Unless you are doubting my claims? hehe

[graywolf624]

You appear to be reading into the quotes tforth. No where does any of these say the Veryon is superior or can even keep up. They say they are astonished it did so well. That isn't the same thing. Lets disect:

evo No. 096, Pg. 100, when comparing it to the Enzo: "In some respects the Enzo is like the Carrera - super-sharp front end, high roll stiffness and appreciable structural integrity - but its punchier engine should make it more effective here. However, half a mile in, it's clear that the Ferrari and I have got our work cut out, and not just because the Veyron is shockingly fast when the road uncoils. It's also incredibly quick into the turns and fires out of them like it's on slicks."

That says nothing about waking. It does say its faster then they expected.. But then again a pinto could be faster then you expected. That isn't a comparative statement. The only piece comparitive in the entire quote is that the ferrari has its work cut out for it. Implying the Veyron may be close in the writers opinion. Statistically the Veryon is too heavy to keep up in the tight turns. Thats a given. All one needs to do is look at the weight, it isn't argueable. Given enough straights on the track and a reasonable turning ability this car will win on many tracks. That doesnt imply its the equal of even close to the handling ability of the ferrari or Porsche.

evo No. 096, Pg. 102: "I probably like the Veyron more than either of them (the other cars in this test), not because it's the fastest production car ever but because I still can't believe, first, that it works and, second, that it works so astonishingly well. Against all expectation it's not simply a car for going absurdly fast in a straight line; it really does seem to defy physics in the corners, feeling much lighter than it actually is, changing direction with alarcity and precision and getting its power down more effectively (this means better...) than cars with several hundred horsepower less (i.e. than the CGT, Enzo and Zonda S)."

The only piece in this entire article that says anything compartivie deals with getting the power down. That also doesnt show the whole picture of handling.



[/quote]

[nthfinity]

Originally Posted by tforth Suffice it to say, this is JabbasWorld, and we are priviledged to have some actual industry insiders as members - and when core members of JW say "the source told me", then "the sourcE" told them. You may choose to believe this or not, the fact remains insiders have relayed witnessed accounts of various events, cars and behaviours - these are truthful accounts. Again - choose to believe it or not, no justification needed from our part. How come the "objective testers" don't have lap times and video of the Veyron beating the CGT and Enzo? Is it possible that it is their own subjectivity getting in the way, and the car only feels faster, but it really is not faster? I can tell you from personal experience that the 4wd Ruf Yellowbird felt quicker than the RT12... but the numbers showed a different story.. Well, I actually work in the 'industry', on both the development and production implementation side. If someone was making some claims that I knew to be false, whether I felt that they were making them up, or because their source was flawed, I would provide everyone the service of 'giving' (neat term that) the relevant facts and not just hearsay. It's not like the comparative data that is mentioned on this thread (but never substantiated) is confidential or anything. Again, put out, or kindly shut up. I don't buy the 'holier than thou' BS! BTW, since when was the Ruf Yellowbird 4WD?

Actually, much of what we talked about at various points is very confidential. There is something called trust; and if someone such as myself were to break that trust; then the implications could be wide spread, and actually hurt the industry that I love... let alone, I wouldn't have access to the insiders.

As a day job, I work in the auto industry. As a night job, I am building something very special; bringing information, stories, news, and history that isn't ANYWHERE else to JW.

as an aside; The Veyron was tested at tracks across france, germany and belgium predominantly, and some other lesser known tracks. Lap times were never officially timed for good reason... However... there were some hot laps where Hot things happened... but... a scorching lap time wasn't ever the result.

The Veyron is amazing, yes. It is not perfect. I am here to stop most supercars from being put on a pedistal falsely (read McLaren F1)

When you get a professional driver behind the wheel of each car on a track at roughly the same conditions (temp, surface temp and weather the same is sufficient) then we'll talk about the King of supercars.... the Veyron is the King of posh Shebang and brag... and is amazing. But it is not the Jack of All Trades as that simply doesn't exist.

Since you are an industry insider as well; why not talk to the people who own, and drive those Veyrons, and the guys who test them and see for yourself

[tforth]

Originally Posted by graywolf624 You appear to be reading into the quotes tforth. No where does any of these say the Veryon is superior or can even keep up. They say they are astonished it did so well. That isn't the same thing. Lets disect: evo No. 096, Pg. 100, when comparing it to the Enzo: "In some respects the Enzo is like the Carrera - super-sharp front end, high roll stiffness and appreciable structural integrity - but its punchier engine should make it more effective here. However, half a mile in, it's clear that the Ferrari and I have got our work cut out, and not just because the Veyron is shockingly fast when the road uncoils. It's also incredibly quick into the turns and fires out of them like it's on slicks." That says nothing about waking. It does say its faster then they expected.. But then again a pinto could be faster then you expected. That isn't a comparative statement. The only piece comparitive in the entire quote is that the ferrari has its work cut out for it. Implying the Veyron may be close in the writers opinion. Statistically the Veryon is too heavy to keep up in the tight turns. Thats a given. All one needs to do is look at the weight, it isn't argueable. Given enough straights on the track and a reasonable turning ability this car will win on many tracks. That doesnt imply its the equal of even close to the handling ability of the ferrari or Porsche. evo No. 096, Pg. 102: "I probably like the Veyron more than either of them (the other cars in this test), not because it's the fastest production car ever but because I still can't believe, first, that it works and, second, that it works so astonishingly well. Against all expectation it's not simply a car for going absurdly fast in a straight line; it really does seem to defy physics in the corners, feeling much lighter than it actually is, changing direction with alarcity and precision and getting its power down more effectively (this means better...) than cars with several hundred horsepower less (i.e. than the CGT, Enzo and Zonda S)." The only piece in this entire article that says anything compartivie deals with getting the power down. That also doesnt show the whole picture of handling.

[/quote]

OK, I guess I am not communicating very clearly here. I had another look at the evo comparison, and found some more relevant quotes which will hopefully put this dispute to rest for the time being:

evo No. 096, Pg. 101, John Barker, the author of this comparison states:

"To build a 1000 bhp, 250 mph road car is remarkable enough, but to make that car comfortable, easy to drive and crushingly capable on the sort of twisting roads that would test a hot hatch (i.e. 'b-roads' if this is not already obvious) is little short of miraculous. At the outset of this test, none of us could have imagined that the Veyron would leave the Enzo trailing in its wake on such a road. It sounds absurd even now."

If this passage isn't clear enough for you guys, please read on:

evo No. 096, Pg. 101 - continued, Jethro Bovingdon states:

"It blows the Enzo, Carrera GT and Zonda into the weeds. That sounds ridiculous but it's no exaggeration."

How much more clear can they be? The only counterpoint they mention is that they didn't get as much feedback through the steering and contact patches as the others. Oh, and that it lacked a certain subjective desirability. But, I have never claimed that the Veyron is a champion in the area of feedback, as the other three are not champions in this regard either (when compared to much lesser vehicles i.e. elise, 911, etc.).

BTW, have any of you actually read this article? Do you read evo at all? I can't believe that you read it and still have the opinions that you have expressed.

Are things still vague for you guys?

[RC45]

**yawn**

[TeflonTron]

I really don't get the big deal on this.

The Veyron is a crushingly fast car in a straight line, from any speed to any speed, and it handles very, very well for its weight. However, lighter, nimbler cars will always be that: lighter and nimbler. No-one who buys a Veyron does so to track it. On acceleration and top-speed it is stock-against-stock King of the Hill, but it is whipped by a bunch of cars on a racetrack.

Why is anyone surprised about that?

[nthfinity]

We have a pic or shut the f*** up rule here on JW this is something all members have to follow... tforth have brought qoutes from EVO wich is considered a very reliable source here on JW by all, but because you and nfhintiy dont like what they write it should be dismissed and we should belive you because you are core members sorry...

Nowhere did i say that evo was specifically wrong.... however, nowhere has evo specifically said it was better at doing anything better then the other cars mentioned except that they are surprised how good it is.

where it says "it blows off the doors" of course, it has AWD 365's, and 1000+ hp. It is mind blowing how fast it is in a straight line. But I've gone faster through bends in the likes of a Ford GT, and a CGT. Both of which have similar ride quality... nise a soft ride, even over Michigan pot holes.

every time it is ever mentioned about how the Veyron does through the bends, it is always "better then i ever would have guessed"

but that is such an opinion based viewpoint; a subjective catagory vs. an objective catagory.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by brembo Originally Posted by RC45 **yawn** Nice comeback RC....

I have more.

Originally Posted by brembo We have a pic or shut the f*** up rule here on JW this is something all members have to follow... tforth have brought qoutes from EVO wich is considered a very reliable source here on JW by all, but because you and nfhintiy dont like what they write it should be dismissed and we should belive you because you are core members sorry...

Never said that - I was refering to the "other' core members who have witnessed said events and shared them in confidence and it is their wishes to not disclose them as the source.

You of course knew this but just choose to be obtuse.

If you have spent any quality time on JW in the last 3 years you would be aware of a well-connected member that frequents the Northloop and simply put 2 and 2 together as yoy even accept what they say as pure fact as that person is so trustworthy and well connected/

Again - you're just being as ass.

Originally Posted by brembo The Veyron are mindblowing fast, it have made the people who where talking it down before it came out reverse after they drove it.... Jezza where making jokes about the car for ages until he actually drove it and then he praised it, and so have the others I have not once heard about a single person who called the Veyron a pig who have driven it....

And again, it is fast 'for what it is" - but just becaus eit is fast doesnt make it any less of a fat pig.

Originally Posted by brembo But as you said the vette ran 7:42 on NS and since tforth might not have been there that day he cant know what hes talking about, are that the reason you mentioned the vettes time on NS?

Not at all -- never said or implied that aat all...

Originally Posted by brembo [ e have allready established the vette being the best superduperhyperultra car ever hitting earth so of course the Veyron cant be hanging with that its an moot point....

Again with the sarcasm.. nice come back

[nthfinity]

Runway 9/27 Dimensions: 4000 x 75 ft. / 1219 x 23 m Surface: asphalt, in good condition

at a place I went to back in august, the Veyron was hitting 190 mph on this short runway with regularity before full braking. That is very impressive.

[tforth]

every time it is ever mentioned about how the Veyron does through the bends, it is always "better then i ever would have guessed"

So, please help me understand how your statement is not refuted by this evo quote:

evo No. 096, Pg. 101, John Barker, the author of this comparison states:

"To build a 1000 bhp, 250 mph road car is remarkable enough, but to make that car comfortable, easy to drive and crushingly capable on the sort of twisting roads that would test a hot hatch (i.e. 'b-roads' if this is not already obvious) is little short of miraculous. At the outset of this test, none of us could have imagined that the Veyron would leave the Enzo trailing in its wake on such a road. It sounds absurd even now."

but that is such an opinion based viewpoint; a subjective catagory vs. an objective catagory.

No, I have provided objective data; specifically, the evo comparison where they explicitly stated that the Veyron is WAY faster than a CGT, Enzo or Zonda (see above quote) over the same section of twisty road. I am not claiming that specific times were provided in this article. However, what would they mean in this context, as they were public roads and as such would have no historical time reference (i.e. like an established race track does).

Yes, I have mentioned their more subjective comments, for the sake of being fair (some here, could learn a lesson in this regard). Specifically again, I have mentioned that the evo writers felt that there was not as much feedback through the Veyron's controls and that it lacked a certain sparkle. These, were the only 'subjective' elements which I have provided, and these were the ONLY negatives written in the evo comparison regarding the Veyron's performance!

[RC45]

Originally Posted by tforth No, I have provided objective data; specifically, the evo comparison where they explicitly stated that the Veyron is WAY faster than a CGT, Enzo or Zonda (see above quote) over the same section of twisty road. I am not claiming that specific times were provided in this article. However, what would they mean in this context, as they were public roads and as such would have no historical time reference (i.e. like an established race track does).

The comparison they are doing is inherently flawed.

If you ahve ever gone on a high speed run through the back roads, you would know and understand you are in procession and if you are on public 2-lane B-Roads, the car infornt.. has um whats the word/? Oh yeah, the advantage of being in front.... and when you have similar capable cars, the car in front ALWAYS gets ahead because the driver gets the jump, is ahead and begins accerating first.

So such a subjective comparison as 'the CGT could not cathc the Veyron" is pure and utter journalisic BullCrap.

Because had the CGT bene in fron the veyron would not have bene able to catch up and pass... on the straights, sure it could reel the CGT in, but would not be able to pull up, and and pass it around the bends.

That's the point.

Again, being able to run up to 180mph while other are still at 140 or 150mph is a moot point fi the road cannot support those speeds.

So again, such a comparison is pointless because as soon as the Veyron (or Hyabusa) reaches 180mph, the CGT can would/should (with the right driver) be able to get around the 140mph bumpy B-Road corner quicker...

Same holds truen for the Gixxer 1000 beating the Huabusa..


(Will post more when I get home )

Originally Posted by tforth Yes, I have mentioned their more subjective comments, for the sake of being fair (some here, could learn a lesson in this regard). Specifically again, I have mentioned that the evo writers felt that there was not as much feedback through the Veyron's controls and that it lacked a certain sparkle. These, were the only 'subjective' elements which I have provided, and these were the ONLY negatives written in the evo comparison regarding the Veyron's performance!

[nthfinity]

but evo says it handles great and doesnt stand back for the enzo cgt and the likes of them,

yet, there is nothing objective here in terms of how fast it can corner, while sure, the veyron is 1000 lbs more then the Enzo/CGT, an extra 400 hp/400+ torque really make a difference to how quickly it will besiege the difference around the bends.

the Veyron does have a great chassis; but in no way will Bugatti ever claim it goes through the bends like the 2003-4-5 super cars because it simply cannot.

I'm not talking handling G, as the Veyron has already tested very high there... eg; .96 g in both directions; but it isn't nimble like the lighter weight counterparts. It just isn't possible. It does do very well.

the objective claim will come when there are lap times, or sector times or the like. I'm waiting for the Veyron supertest... which is kind of ironic, as so many of the *cough cough* other naysayers have claimed about a certain car LOL.