New Veyron Test

[tforth]

For the benefit of those who have not yet visited the revlovers.com site, here are some comments from Dennis, one of their administrators, in how the Veyron (they actually had two of them there) compared against other cars at their initial Hockenheim meet (F1, F1 GTR, Enzo, CGT, GT1 road car, CLK GTR, etc.):

"RE: Bugatti Review

Having compared both cars on the track... I know that the Bugatti is definitly quicker than the normal road McLaren F1 on track. Even the F1 GTR on road tyres is slower... Only when fitting the GTR with Slicks it is considerably faster, but that is a unfair comparison..."

Here is their review of the Veyron:

"Driving above 400 kph in a road legal car is an experience you will not forget. It becomes impossible to notice anything right or left of the road, since one covers a mind blowing 111 meters per second at that speed. Forget reading sign posts, the road needs your full attention. Even to find out how fast you are actually going is a serious challenge, since during the time your eyes move their focus from the road to the speedometer, from the speedometer to the GPS system back to the road you probably have travelled more than 300 meters. This is ten times the distance the car actually needs to stop from 100 kph.

Surprisingly the perception of speed changes the faster you go. While it is relatively easy to distinguish between travelling at 200 kph or 250 kph, it really becomes hard to tell whether you go 350 kph or 400 kph. It is like moving into another world where everything you have learned to know becomes relative. The experience can be compared more to sitting in an airplane than to driving a car. Or can you tell if you are doing 700 kph or 900 kph when sitting in a commercial jet? In both cases you notice that you are travelling extremely fast but a precise judgment of how fast you are actually going without any indication of speed becomes almost impossible.

Although the car feels extremely stable at high speeds, reliably following its course straight ahead, you start wondering who is in control of the situation. Even though the car follows your inputs, you start feeling that the car actually has taken over the majority of control, which is an unfavourable situation to be in. At high speeds your health and safety almost entirely depend on the reliability of the car and its technical components i.e. tyres, to withstand the sheer forces they are exposed to. If anything were to go wrong you would not wish to have Michael Schumacher’s car control, but you would wish to live in an era where ‘beaming’ could actually save you from a very unfortunate scenario. No matter how good a driver you are, at those speeds the likelihood of surviving a major technical fault untouched is like winning the Lotto Jackpot.

The technical issue is not the only factor determining whether or not you will survive the adventure. The sheer velocity requires you to see as far ahead as possible, since it will be almost impossible to avoid any unforeseen obstacles on the road when spotting them too late in the near distance. Abruptly changing the lane à la ‘Elk Test’ is not an option, and the attempt to brake pointless. The fact that you are driving on a private test track comforts you, however acres of woods left and right to the road make you hope that hunters have done their job well. The steering requires relatively strong but sensitive inputs in order to guide the car from one lane to another. Trying not to unsettle the car, any inputs to the steering are as smooth as possible. The car follows willingly small direction changes. Intimidated by the three lane road which seems to become very narrow the faster you go, you do not exactly want to test the car’s handling abilities at this stage. A huge respect towards speed builds up inside of you, forcing you to concentrate really hard on the task ahead. You try to feel into the car to notice any suspicious vibrations or noises, but the sensitivity of your organs cannot keep up with the numerous built-in sensors electronically monitoring all the different aspects of the car. For example, a small discrepancy between the individual tyre pressures will end the ‘high speed mode’, increasing the car’s ride height and raising the rear spoiler to ‘handling position’. A warning light will flash up signalling that it might be a good idea to make use of the phenomenal brakes in order to abort the mission.

The brakes themselves are a great achievement since the car carries a considerable mass difficult to stop once in motion. But the force with which they decelerate even from 400 kph is almost more impressive than the acceleration to that speed. A slight touch on the brake paddle activates the airbrake, which left alone decelerates the car at 0.6 m/s (he meant g - edit) at above 375 kph. Intensify the pressure slightly with your foot and the car seriously starts decelerating like other supercars would from 200 kph and normal road cars would never achieve from 100 km/h. Elder people using a denture should be aware to keep their mouth closed under braking in order to avoid any embarrassing moments. Even at those speeds hard brake manoeuvres are totally stable and seem to be effortless. Bugatti claims that the car will stop from 400 km/h in just 10 seconds. This is totally believable after having felt the sheer force with which the car decelerates. Nevertheless the car will have travelled just over half a kilometre before it reaches stand still. Considering this distance, the car would actually be able to accelerate from nought to 100 kph back to nought more than five times within the same distance.

However the most surprising aspect of the car is that you do not need to be a driving virtuoso in order to control the car on an every day basis. The line between brutal madness and civilised behaviour is dictated by the angle of the accelerator. If you only use the first quarter of what has to be the most powerful paddle in the world, the car feels like a very well balanced sports car, easy to drive, totally suitable for every day use. There is sufficient comfort and even low enough noise levels to carry around infants in their sleep. When driving around town, it is hard to believe that this same machine was able to intimidate and challenge you.

The car’s dual identity of tremendous power and speed versus its civilised and calm character might be dangerous to inexperienced drivers, because the car is not intimidating initially which might result in overconfidence and carelessness. The general speed at which you travel might be easily underestimated. As long as inexperienced drivers do not over estimate themselves and use the hyper paddle to an extent that they would lose control.

The balancing act between the car’s usability and its unbeatable performance is astonishing and requires expressing unlimited admiration for the engineer’s achievement. The car’s build quality is outstanding, totally robust and solid. There are no rattles, no tweaks, nor any other disturbing noises neither from the suspension nor from the engine and transmission. The double clutch sequential gear box is phenomenal, the best paddle operated gear box I have tested so far and probably the best transmission out there. There is no lag in between the shifts. Shifts are only noticed by changes in engine sound.

Accelerating through the gears feels like sitting in an F-16 being launched from an aircraft carrier. There is a constant violent push forward, forcing your passenger’s head deep into the upholstery of his seat when accelerating unexpectedly. Some are so surprised by the sheer violence that you might think to notice a small colour change in their face and a definite change in their facial expression. Transforming from a casually enjoying look to an almost uncomfortable but definitely thrilled face, your passenger seems to struggle grasping what is happening to him.

The handling of the car is the second most surprising aspect of this machine. The car’s "over weight" has been an issue widely discussed, however astonishingly the car feels agile happy to turn in and is definitely a blast on country roads. It always stays stable and very neutral through long sweeping turns. Even when turns tighten up, the car seems to carry at least 500 kilos less than it actually does. On country roads one begins to learn that the car offers extremely high grip levels which one is unable to be fully exploit on public roads due to legal and safety issues.

Having tested the car intensively on the Hockenheim Ring, my admiration for the car grew even more. It is tremendously quick, absolutely stable under all conditions. There is no sign of nervousness, on the contrary the car gives you so much confidence that it is relatively easy to quickly find its limits. Its traction out of tighter turns is mind-blowing. Switch off ESP and discover its absolute neutral behaviour sliding over all four wheels when accelerating out of turns. However, when using the brakes for a few laps on the limit one starts noticing the incredible speed with which you approach turns and the sheer mass which is carried around. In comparison to other supercars, the brake needs to compensate for the huge speed advantage and for the big weight disadvantage, which one starts feeling after a few flying laps. The reason for this small let down is that brake cooling has not been optimised for track use in order to achieve the aerodynamic efficiency needed to reach its proven top speed.

However, this car has not been designed to be the ultimate track car, but it has been designed to beat everything on the road. In our opinion this mission was accomplished by miles. The Bugatti Veyron is a car of superlatives. There is no other car in the world which comes even close to matching its abilities. It is a masterpiece of engineering, a human triumph over the laws of physics.

Text: Dennis

[RC45]

The context of the above write up is an F1 spec race track.

And note the little disclaimer about the brakes slipped in at the end.

Oh - and please note how Dennis in fact concurs with me about the nature of super high speed travel - you need distance and clear range to avoid distaster.

So - take this all and place it in the context of undulating and bumpy and twisty B-Roads (as for example the Nurburgring) and the only place the Vagrant would shine, is the sweepers and straights.

So perhaps the above write-up in fact proves my assertion that on certain types of roads being able to speed above q80mph is moot - and that at the lower speeds and technical requirements the CGT and Enzo would be more than a match for the Vagrant... much like say a Miata could school a GT3 on certain types of roads..

*yawn*

Rather than be a car of superlatives, perhaps the Veyron is simply a car of excess.

Some like excess, others don't

[RC45]

Originally Posted by brembo Originally Posted by RC45 Originally Posted by tforth I wonder why they dont race with leaf springs in every racing catagory as it seems thats the best suspension for the smooth track surface and the best for bumby b-roads..... The supercar manufactors should really go to america and look at how it should be made IMO... Yes, why is it that GM has been going to all that expense and trouble of testing at that mickey mouse track called Nuernburg something or other, when all of the best chassis development roads exist right in their own backyard? I guess I misunderstood back roads as meaning off-highway. Clearly, the definition must be dirt/gravel paths, where they use the speed limit signs as target practice for their shot guns... I never once mentined anything about leaf springs in my comment. You people keep coming back to the same shit argument - not I. The point is that on anything except smooth ribbons of pavement 180mph speeds are semi-controlled chaos. The Nurburgrng is not laped at 180mph, but rather at the very speeds the quoted article speaks of - 125mph to 170mph.. the simple reality is that 180mph+ speeds on anythign except relatively smooth and nonundulating semi-winding roads is a deadly combination - for any god-damned car. Again - witness the smashed Enzo. I have to ask both of you, have you EVER tried to blast rhough B-Road countryside at 160mph or faster? Have you ever been on non-race track surfaces at very high speed to see how quickly things can get undone? This is the reality - and even the Nurburgring bears witness to this - note the very untidy accidents that happen when the speed of the section of road is exceeded. Now there is no way in hell that the Veyron would be able to be better than the lighter CGT/Enzo et al through certain sections at an even higher speed... and until such time as I see an Enzo or CGT succesfully go through sections of B-Road at 180mph that otherwise cannot be passed at even 150mph, then I wont even bother with paying attention to all this fan-boy crap about the Veyron. Even if in the end a Veyron lapped the Nurburgring faster than a CGT I stil wouldnt care, because unlike a Radical that has a lower top speed than the CGT but higher cornering speed and there for deserves attention and respect, the Veyron would have to rely on 245mph straight speeds to cut off the 15 seconds lost as it wallowed like an over wieght pig throuhg the bends at a lower speed than the CGT. *yawn* Whats wrong now RC?.... Here I am concuring with you that the vette might be the only car in the world capable of going fast on b-roads and the supercar manufactors should look into this leaf spring business as you say the Z06 are very fast on the track with leafsprings, and from what we can gather from your posts here on JW maybe the only car capable of going fast on b-roads so clearly there must be something here as every other car will just bounce of a not so smooth surface as an F1 track are.... To answer your question if I have been on an b-road...I have probably driven more on b-roads than you have done even if you are older than me RC, I have pretty much only driven on what you call b-road... lots of the time I drive on roads you would probably consider c or d roads with gravel and no guard rails of any kind.. I have seen the roads you call b-roads so yes I am sure I have driven on b-roads...and yes I have driven on these roads in pretty high speeds also, and know very well what it can do if you are not on top of things and paying attention, but thats the whole thing anycar will kill you if you push the limits...

Again with the leaf spring BS.

I never once mentioned "that car' - but try as you might you keep steering away from the obvious... the Vagrant for all the R&D better do the simple things like go fast in a straight line and stop in astraight line...

...but again, on roads where 180mph is a moot point and 150mph is difficult to maintain control on are where the overweight sloppy pig will lose out to the svelt and far more capable CGT and Enzo...

Witness once again the fact that when the Enzo tried to go 180 on roads that could only sustain a barely controlled 150 it crashed and burned...

So in that arena the vagarant would be outclassed by its own excesses.

And again, the posted article supports this 100%.

BTW - what does gravel and no guardrails have to do with anything?

And somehow I doubt you have that much 160mph B-Road milage. maybe a lot of 120 to 130mph but running 160mph on less than perfect back roads is not something easily done without lotsa horsepower and lotsa grip

But maybe you have spent every weekend with an Audi Quattro SWB Gruppe B Rally car - who knows

[RC45]

Originally Posted by brembo Originally Posted by RC45 Again with the leaf spring BS. I never once mentioned "that car' - but try as you might you keep steering away from the obvious... the Vagrant for all the R&D better do the simple things like go fast in a straight line and stop in astraight line... ...but again, on roads where 180mph is a moot point and 150mph is difficult to maintain control on are where the overweight sloppy pig will lose out to the svelt and far more capable CGT and Enzo... Witness once again the fact that when the Enzo tried to go 180 on roads that could only sustain a barely controlled 150 it crashed and burned... So in that arena the vagarant would be outclassed by its own excesses. And again, the posted article supports this 100%. BTW - what does gravel and no guardrails have to do with anything? And somehow I doubt you have that much 160mph B-Road milage. maybe a lot of 120 to 130mph but running 160mph on less than perfect back roads is not something easily done without lotsa horsepower and lotsa grip But maybe you have spent every weekend with an Audi Quattro SWB Gruppe B Rally car - who knows From what people who have driven the Veyron its an extremly capable car and far from a pig like you love to make it out to be, you always like to compare it to the some ubermodded vette who run great 1/4 miles and can handle great are daily driven and so on and so on, you also always like to pull out how fast you drive with your vette on what you call b-roads, you also imply that I might not have driven on b-roads and dont know what I am talking about.... I was merly saying maybe ferrari, buggati, porsche, zonda and the rest of the top car brands should look at how the vette are made as that obviously are the best car ever when it comes to track use or b-road use or whatever use.... I have not spent all my weekends with an group b car, thats true but I have been pushing 160 on roads you would consider b roads...and I am still here... :shock:

In this latest series of exchanges I never once mentioned anything modded or american or even implied "that other caR" was part of the discussion...

I used Emzo and CGT as clear examples... and provided proof that 180mph and certain roads don't mix.. no matter what the chariot...

I am sure you had what ever car it was fully opposite lock 160 around b-road bends and simply ate up the bumps ripples and undulations all the way.

[tforth]

How is it, that any of the mag quotes which I have provided so far, indicate anything other than the Veyron digested the CGT ( which I am generally a big fan of), Enzo and a moded Zonda S, all driven by the gang at evo?

These guys actually stated that this was far from what they (and so many others it seems) expected of the Veyron. They expected the straight line stuff, as it's hard to ignore the stats, but what none of them expected was what happened in and out of the curves. Obviously, reading is a bit of a challenge for some of us here so I'll provide the same quote from evo, that I have already posted above:


evo No. 096, Pg. 102:

"I probably like the Veyron more than either of them (the other cars in this test), not because it's the fastest production car ever but because I still can't believe, first, that it works and, second, that it works so astonishingly well. Against all expectation it's not simply a car for going absurdly fast in a straight line; it really does seem to defy physics in the corners, feeling much lighter than it actually is, changing direction with alarcity and precision and getting its power down more effectively (this means better...) than cars with several hundred horsepower less (i.e. than the CGT, Enzo and Zonda S)."

evo No. 096, Pg. 100, when comparing it to the Enzo:

"In some respects the Enzo is like the Carrera - super-sharp front end, high roll stiffness and appreciable structural integrity - but its punchier engine should make it more effective here. However, half a mile in, it's clear that the Ferrari and I have got our work cut out, and not just because the Veyron is shockingly fast when the road uncoils. It's also incredibly quick into the turns and fires out of them like it's on slicks."

Now, where exactly did you deduce that the Veyron didn't walk away from the other cars in this comparison?

Lastly, the Georg Kacher (from car magazine) quote was provided to counter the claim that Veyron owners will never drive their cars above 200 mph:

from car's Veyron review by Georg Kacher, issue 529, Pg. 46:

"Ordinary supercars excel in the 125 to 185 mph speed range. Special supercars like the Bugatti demotivate the rest of the four-wheeled world between 185 and 250 mph. Silly velocity? impossible in today's traffic? Wrong, and wrong again. You're forgetting the Veyron's phenomenal stopping ability. With a combined deceleration force of 2.0g - that's 1.4g pulled by the car plus 0.6g added by the air brake - you can squash kinetic energy at a mind blowing rate."

"No, I didn't venture into the final 20mph (i.e. 230-250mph) zone on public roads. But I can report that 230mph in this supercoup on steroids feels about as wild and daring as 150mph does in a regular sports car."

To clarify, Georg is not claiming that he drove at these speeds around a 'b-road' hairpin. I would assume he is referring to driving at these speeds on the autobahn, as I think he resides in Germany. For more evidence of Veyron owners actually using their cars, please check out the revlovers.com site, where they have several videos of a Veyron dicing it up at Hockenheim with CGTs, Ford GTs, Mac F1s and GTRs, an Enzo, a CLK GTR, etc. BTW, Hockenheim is not known to be a smooth track (last time I checked).

Are there any other misconceptions about the info. provided, that I can help with?

[RC45]

**yawn**

The point is that outside of the F1 flat tracks the car is a **yawn** an over weight boat.

There are many roads whose speeds will need to be exceeded for the Vagrant to "obliterate" the CGT - and on such roads 180mph is not an option..

Witness the Enzo that was smashed to bits trying to go 180mph on a 150mph road.

The Bugnasty Vagrant would also be smashed to bits if it tried to go 180mph on a 150mph road... thats just reality.

[Shinigami]

Originally Posted by RC45 an over weight boat.

That supposedly handles almost Lotus like... Not too bad for something that weighs over two tons

[RC45]

Originally Posted by Shinigami Originally Posted by RC45 an over weight boat. That supposedly handles almost Lotus like... Not too bad for something that weighs over two tons

supposedly... again - how come we don't see any trackside and incar video of these "tests" where the Veyron laps Enzos and CGT's?

You would think, with the million dollar being so good and so perfect, that hiring a few cmaeras to record these momentour events would be simple as... right??

**yawn**

It's a million dollar ar with hundreds of millions in R&D and 1000hp and more computers than NASA - why is everyone prasing it so much?

It would be disastrous if it couldn't do what it does..

[RC45]

Originally Posted by brembo Originally Posted by RC45 Originally Posted by Shinigami Originally Posted by RC45 an over weight boat. That supposedly handles almost Lotus like... Not too bad for something that weighs over two tons supposedly... again - how come we don't see any trackside and incar video of these "tests" where the Veyron laps Enzos and CGT's? You would think, with the million dollar being so good and so perfect, that hiring a few cmaeras to record these momentour events would be simple as... right?? **yawn** It's a million dollar ar with hundreds of millions in R&D and 1000hp and more computers than NASA - why is everyone prasing it so much? It would be disastrous if it couldn't do what it does.. As I have said for a long time now, they should go and check out the vette, no need to reinvent the wheel as the best recipie have been out there for 50 years....

You really are obsessed with the Vette I see.

Surely the CGT is better measure, afterall it's also a German car like the Veyron

[nthfinity]

well....

I have on pure authority that the Veyron will not out handle a Ford GT, let alone a Z06, a CGT, Enzo, a Porsche 911, a Aston V8 Vantage, a Noble, etc. etc.

it does well through the corners considering it's weight. there is nothing objective about such statements. the analogy of the day seems to be "money talks" or lap times in this case.

[tforth]

I have on pure authority that the Veyron will not out handle a Ford GT, let alone a Z06, a CGT, Enzo, a Porsche 911, a Aston V8 Vantage, a Noble, etc. etc.

What authority exactly? I have provided quotes from two prominent British mags. Evo, which is pretty much considered the 'authoritative' magazine for enthusiasts, compared the Veyron against 3 of its best handling/accelerating/decelerating supercar competitors. It beat them all, in fact the owner of the Enzo AND CGT said that they were going to order a Veyron each for themselves...

I have also provided info. from the revlovers.com trackday at Hockenheim, where it ran on the track against the fastest cars ever made. The only one they said was faster, was the race spec'd Mac F1 GTR and ONLY when it was running on race slicks!

Where exactly is your proof??

[nthfinity]

Originally Posted by tforth I have on pure authority that the Veyron will not out handle a Ford GT, let alone a Z06, a CGT, Enzo, a Porsche 911, a Aston V8 Vantage, a Noble, etc. etc. What authority exactly? I have provided quotes from two prominent British mags. Evo, which is pretty much considered the 'authoritative' magazine for enthusiasts, compared the Veyron against 3 of its best handling/accelerating/decelerating supercar competitors. It beat them all, in fact the owner of the Enzo AND CGT said that they were going to order a Veyron each for themselves... I have also provided info. from the revlovers.com trackday at Hockenheim, where it ran on the track against the fastest cars ever made. The only one they said was faster, was the race spec'd Mac F1 GTR and ONLY when it was running on race slicks! Where exactly is your proof??

this comes directly from contacts I have at Bugatti, long talks with the test drivers, and time in the car thankyou. The terms I mention are purely objective, and not a slippery slope of "it does better then you would think it does" type crap that ALL the magazines are spewing. What a load of crap, eh?

so again, where are the lap times?

I love the Veyron, but I have no illusions regarding it.

[RC45]

and where are the in-car and track side videos of the Veyron passing the out of control Enzo's and CGT's around the outside ?

[Shinigami]

I think nthfinity summed it up well by saying "considering its weight". Those who did drive it, said it did incredibly well, even quoted "lotus like". I know one friend personally who tried the Veyron, and he said it was a beast, even in the wet (he drives a considerable number of interesting cars, so it sounds legible).

But 99% of all owners will never take it to a track, so the only way to know for sure is to wait for "someone" to finally get their hands on the car in order to give it the going to that's needed.

[dons5]

Veyron is Gay, PERIOD.

1. It was a concept for like 100 years first of all, I mean do you see Ferrari with an Enzo at all the Car shows for years and years while its still being made and changed and fixed etc etc? No it comes out into production and thats it.

2. It doesnt really work, if it did im sure it would come with an engine cover.

3. 8 litres, 16 cylinders, quad turbo? Are u nuts, Enzo (and other supercars) are making way way better power per cc. Enzo is making 660, add another 4 cylinders, 1.4 litres and a few turbos to that thing.

4. The weight, ridiculous, why are they making a luxary cruiser, but with supercar looks and outrageous power. The car doesnt even know what it is its messed up.

All it is is a way of idiots that dont know anything about cars and racing to say hey look I got a Bugatti, 1000 hp, fastest car in the world. Which it aint even,or wont be soon.