Car & Driver: Ferrari 430

[ice]

well, I do liek that post about the awards, but hey, 2 years ago Volvo won best looking car, in Italy, as voted by the italian motoring press. Great.

So Lambo's are built perfectly? Only the bad Lambo;s are sent to Canada? Or I have to be lying about it. Yea, Ive heard about the paint problem of the 612, the imola ive never heard. But then again when has ferrari ever advertised good build quality? Besides, theyve gotten better witht the 550's and 360's.

Oh, and this slope business. Im not doubting, in any way, that a significant enough slope has an effect on times. No one can argue that. But the slope at Fiorano isnt significant enough. Why is it every independant tester has equaled or bettered the times set in firoano? Is it they all have slopes, that only work for the Ferrari's, in each of their respective countries? Or is it the fact that the slope at fiorano is small enough to have a negligable difference in times. Say what you want, but the fact is that the slope just doesnt have an effect. All we can do, anyways, to settle this is wait for the independant test.

And i bet you your uncle didnt get the one he wanted, i bet he picked one up right off the lot. They said, well, this one hasnt sold, it was a demo, or a cancelled order, or even had a 1000 km's, and that if he wanted one according to his spec, the waiting list is 1 year. Two years if he wants his own spider.

Guido, Id love to give u the numbers, but im at school right now, and it will be 2 or 3 weeks before i can get home to get all my magazines. Call it convenient, or whatever, but it only takes one second for someone to open up their motor trend, R&T and others. Autosports times are a joke.

Oh, and it will take more then brakes and panels for the Gallardo. Its not critisized, ever, for not being fast enough, or not having strong enough brakes. Its numbers are impressive. But thats not what makes it second best, even to the 360. Its the way which it delevers its speed. Reading EVO, or CAR, or C&D, or Sports car INTL, or whatever, they all use the 430 as a model to promote how the Gallardo is dull in comparison. Understeering too much, AWD which dulls the experience, a more refined exhaust note, and less sharp steering, among other things, make its style of delievery just differnt(relatively, to the 360/430) enough to be noticed. If thats what you want, fine, then it will be perfect for you. But when people, or journalists, get into an italian supercar they want to be thrilled, they want to be scared almost. Thats why the diablo is so great, the F40 so great, an so on. They do what an italian supercar should do. Talk to ANY Gallardo owner, any journalist. they are all impressed most by the Gallardo's ease of use, its practicality, its civility. Not by its intensity. hell, C&D said its an exotic striving to be a good car. I dont want that, ill keep my 6 series for that. And thats why its not the car the 360 is. When compared to nearly any other car, its better. Better then any aston, or most porshes, but it doesnt beat the ferrari at its own game. It takes a different route althogeher. DOes it make it les of a car, no, but it makes it less of an exotic supercar. And the fact is, from the sales, and articles putting 360's first, depstie being slightly slower in a straight line, or taking longer to brake, or even being more expensive, people agree with that.

So how much better is the F430? Well see when a mag gets thier hands on it. No doubt in my mind exists that it will beat the gallardo in every comparison, and will beat the Ford Gt as well. Thats no gaurentee, but merely a prediction im confidant in. If you disagree thats fine, but jugding form the early response to the 430, i dont think its that far off.

[twboy1999]

Originally Posted by allanlambo Originally Posted by twboy1999 360cs will beat gallardo and murcilago on track straight line speed.. gallardo and cs should be around the same performance murci will beat 360 cs in a straight line for sure I dont think so. http://www.track-challenge.com/compa...ar1=70&Car2=68 http://www.track-challenge.com/compa...ar1=70&Car2=51

sorry never seen any mags that test the cs out and did 0-100 in 4.4 sec

[dons5]

lol the CS does 0-100km in 4 seconds flat, max 4.2,
and supposedly around Ferraris test track the 430 does the same time as a CS (rememebr the CS is almost like a race version while 430 is normal) that means that an 430 is about 3-3.5 seconds faster then the regular 360 and thats on a small track. Lol and ford gt?? lol give Ferrari the same size engine as the Ford Gt and give Ferrari a spercharger like the Ford Gt and ull be makin 800 horses lolol

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by ice Guido, Id love to give u the numbers, but im at school right now, and it will be 2 or 3 weeks before i can get home to get all my magazines. Call it convenient, or whatever, but it only takes one second for someone to open up their motor trend, R&T and others. Autosports times are a joke.

"Autosports"? "Guido"?

OK, here are MT's times for you:

360CS / Gallardo
0-30: 1.6 / 2.0
0-60: 4.3 / 4.3
0-100: 10.1 / 9.6
1/4 mi: 12.5 @ 114 / 12.5 @ 117
30-100: 8.5 / 7.6

http://motortrend.com/features/perfo...e/index11.html
(360CS - 8/10ths slower than the GT3 from 30-100)
http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coup...bo/index7.html

The Gallardo pulls harder than the 360CS by the specs of 4 different mags:
Car & Driver
Autocar
Motor Trend
Sport Auto

So, that leaves only R&T. Do you seriously think the results of 1 out of 5 mags is going to definitively prove that the 360CS is quicker than the Gallardo? Yes or no? But I will wait for you to get to your mags. In the meantime, you and (anyone else) can search R&T's site. Just type "Stradale" into their Search box:
http://www.roadandtrack.com
Their site is updated to the current issue. I've had a continous subscription for years now. Have not yet seen a road test on the 360CS, but I suppose in a world where an F430 runs with F50's and F40's, anything is possible.

[JiggaStyles09]

actually if you read the MT article it states on this page that they suspected that somehting wasnt right with the stradale they tested (something about the clutch). and if "all had been right" it would probably be a 3.9-4.0 sec 0-60 car.

anyways i just thought i would point that out. personally i would take a gallardo any day over a regular 360 and possibly over a stradale just because i dont think the stradale is something i could deal with on a day to day basis and the gallardo is pretty similar performance wise.

edit - also if you check car and drivers web site the road test they did with the stradale yielded a 4.0 s 0-60 and a 12.4s 1/4mile.

vs.

a 4.1s 0-60 and a 12.4s 1/4 mile for the gallardo. so i dont think it is fair for you to say that the gallardo pulls harder in C&D either, i would say thats pretty even so please try to read more in depth before you post "facts."

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by dons5 lol the CS does 0-100km in 4 seconds flat, max 4.2, and supposedly around Ferraris test track the 430 does the same time as a CS (rememebr the CS is almost like a race version while 430 is normal) that means that an 430 is about 3-3.5 seconds faster then the regular 360 and thats on a small track. Lol and ford gt?? lol give Ferrari the same size engine as the Ford Gt and give Ferrari a spercharger like the Ford Gt and ull be makin 800 horses lolol

What makes you think Ford can't get 800 hp from the Ford GT? Besides, a 5.4L V8 making 148 hp/l...The Porsche GT2 making 134 hp/l out of a smaller engine (remember, all else being equal, it's more difficult to maintain specific output at larger displacements) and based on a fairly mass-produced (among exotics) steel shell already costs $192K. How much would such a Ferrari (much more handbuilt, and with an aluminum body and considerably more bespoke components), with a transmission, brakes, and suspension to cope with that output, cost?

Around Gingerman Raceway, on the same day with the same driver, the Ford GT is over 2 seconds a lap quicker than the CS.



FWIW, the Ford GT also slightly quicker than the 360CS on the TopGear track, which was designed by Lotus and favors handling prowess as much as power (if not more so).

You guys talk as if Ford really made the GT a priority. It wasn't. It was just a relatively small group of people who made a production reality out of a car that was meant in the beginning as merely a concept car to celebrate an anniversary. They didn't even target the 360CS (which hadn't even yet been released), the regular Modena was the benchmark. Yet, the GT beat the CS on the track, and is only a bit slower in a straight line than the Enzo in a same-day, same-driver test. Imagine if Ford had put the kind of effort into the GT that Ferrari does for the 360/430 or Enzo. (lolol.) Hell, just give it some serious track-type tires like the 360CS's treadwear-60 P Zero Corsas...
In case you've forgotten what the tires for these cars look like, here's a reminder:


In an issue of Evo, Ford engineers said their GT was 5-7 seconds quicker around Laguna Seca than the 360 Modena. In a show on the Discovery Channel about the Ford GT's development, they had an early prototype GT with only 400 hp outlapping their 360 test car by a few seconds at Road Atlanta. Even with two different test drivers, the results were largely the same. So if Ferrari says the F430 is 3.0-3.5 seconds quicker than the 360 at Fiorano, and Ford says the GT is 5-7 seconds quicker than the 360 at Laguna Seca, and the GT is already 2+ seconds quicker than the 360CS in a head to head test at Gingerman, how do you guys figure that the F430 will blow away the GT? I think it will be close, and could come down to the driver/track.

[Guibo]

Originally Posted by JiggaStyles09 actually if you read the MT article it states on this page that they suspected that somehting wasnt right with the stradale they tested (something about the clutch). and if "all had been right" it would probably be a 3.9-4.0 sec 0-60 car. edit - also if you check car and drivers web site the road test they did with the stradale yielded a 4.0 s 0-60 and a 12.4s 1/4mile. vs. a 4.1s 0-60 and a 12.4s 1/4 mile for the gallardo. so i dont think it is fair for you to say that the gallardo pulls harder in C&D either, i would say thats pretty even so please try to read more in depth before you post "facts."

Ah, so this is the second test where "something's not right" with the 360CS? There was another one, done by Autocar, which had glitches. (Out of fairness, those aren't the figures I posted earlier.) So much for Ferraris being more reliable, I guess?

They also said: "It's also worth mentioning that we've tested standard 360 Modenas to slightly quicker times than this."

To my knowledge, they've only tested one other standard 360 Modena to slightly quicker times. And that car was tested at Ford's Arizona Proving Grounds, which they've suspected before as being more grippy than their usual test site. Indeed, the best times ever in terms of 1/4 miles recorded for the following cars were done at Ford's APG:
SRT-10 Viper
Murcielago
Ford GT
Carrera GT
Ferrari Enzo
360 Modena (which did 0-60 in 3.92 seconds; have you got a documented test of a Modena being quicker than that anywhere else?)

Originally Posted by JiggaStyles09 edit - also if you check car and drivers web site the road test they did with the stradale yielded a 4.0 s 0-60 and a 12.4s 1/4mile. vs. a 4.1s 0-60 and a 12.4s 1/4 mile for the gallardo. so i dont think it is fair for you to say that the gallardo pulls harder in C&D either, i would say thats pretty even so please try to read more in depth before you post "facts."

Considering 0-60 is largely a function of available traction and these are 190 mph supercars, those figures don't amount to shit. It's much the same for the quarter mile, although one has to look at the trap speed to see which car is really pulling (again, ET's can be largely a function of grip): the Gallardo is going 3 mph faster, despite giving up a tenth in getting to 60.
The FACTS show that the Gallardo gets to 150 mph 2.5 seconds quicker than the 360CS. 150 mph = 220 fps, 220 fps X 2.5 seconds = 550'. That's ~37 carlengths. Tell me again how the Gallardo doesn't pull harder??

[JiggaStyles09]

where does it say that the gallardo is 2.5s faster to 150? im not trying to be a smart ass or anything i just didnt see the stradale's 0-150 time anywhere. the only numbers i saw posted about the stradale on C&D were the 0-60 and 1/4 mile.

[findleybeast]

Originally Posted by Guibo 150 mph = 220 fps, 220 fps X 2.5 seconds = 550'. That's ~37 carlengths. Tell me again how the Gallardo doesn't pull harder??

not that I want to seem like I'm taking sides on this, because I'm not, but that argument doesn't really hold any water. it would be true if the gallardo was traveling at a constant 150mph, and the 360CS was standing still. of course that's not the case, so even if you do figure out the accelleration for both cars up to a point in time, you'd have to subtract the distance covered by the 360CS from the distance covered by the Gallardo.

your point that the gallardo hits 150mph 2.5 seconds faster is valid, just the math you used to emphasize it is wrong

anyway, back to it

[dons5]

umm Fiorano is smaller then Laguna maybe on Laguna the 430 would be 5 or 6 seconds faster then 360. And if Ferrari makes 110 hp/L out of a 6 litre engine and about 115 out of a 4.3 litre then the Ferrari would probably get around 700 - 800 hp with a 5.5 litre engine with a supercharger

[FordGTGuy]

dons5 your forgeting that the Ford GT has a small block if it did have a Ford Big Block like maybe a newly designed cammer 427 which creates over 600 hp by itself then add a bigger bolt on supercharger better pulleys, belts, pistons, spark plugs, and suspension and this car would almost be unstoppable and surely faster than any ferrari enzo on the road. And if you want proof check out a lil car I like to call the Ford GT-40 MKII.

[Vansquish]

Originally Posted by FordGTGuy dons5 your forgeting that the Ford GT has a small block if it did have a Ford Big Block like maybe a newly designed cammer 427 which creates over 600 hp by itself then add a bigger bolt on supercharger better pulleys, belts, pistons, spark plugs, and suspension and this car would almost be unstoppable and surely faster than any ferrari enzo on the road. And if you want proof check out a lil car I like to call the Ford GT-40 MKII.

Where are your numbers coming from man?!?! The newly designed Cammer crate engine isn't a 427, it's a 5.0L (302 roughly) and it makes 420bhp.

[Max Power]

....the ford gt was a preproduction one in the article and C&D says that the CS is faster than the Gallardo...Top Gear also established CS faster than the lambo
All these numbers say nothing cause if u wanted to compare these cars than u would need some sort of 'rules' ... like same engine size, rwd and etc, otherwise u only compare them because of prices

[Vansquish]

Originally Posted by Max Power ....the ford gt was a preproduction one in the article and C&D says that the CS is faster than the Gallardo...Top Gear also established CS faster than the lambo All these numbers say nothing cause if u wanted to compare these cars than u would need some sort of 'rules' ... like same engine size, rwd and etc, otherwise u only compare them because of prices

Don't really agree with that. The Gallardo was designed with 2 cars in mind as competitors, the Porsche 996TT and more importantly the Ferrari 360. Ford obviously benchmarked the 360, and since the Gallardo has come out in the interim, it's obviously (at least theoretically) in the same marketing envelope as the others. The 996TT is of course quite a lot cheaper, so it falls in a lesser pricing bracket, but the GT, Gallardo and 360 are definetely intended to go head-to-head.

[dons5]

ok if the ford had better pistons, better pulleys, better suspension blah blah blah i can go and say the same thing about a honda, if it had a bigger engine and better pulleys etc etc it would be faster too, so would every car genius