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Old 09-07-2008, 08:44 PM   #31
Pokiou
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Mattk your a tool.. its people like you that make good racing shit... They battled for pole position kimi cut off Hamilton off and caused him to go OFF track.. Do you think it would of been wiser for them to collide and have two cars off the track ? I dont think so Hamilton pulled the correct move. He avoided a collision that was bening forced upon him and did it well.. Hamilton coming out in front was luck and shows HOW unprofessional Kimi is becoming. I loved it.. not cause i support Mclaren BUT the fact it brought back the awesome memories of Mansel and Senna.

Fia is supporting Ferrari every step of the way and this just proves it even more!
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Old 09-07-2008, 08:50 PM   #32
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you gotta love how Schumi never got a penalty yet today's incident is more penalty worthy?
Different time, different panel. That was then, this is now. Obviously, the stewards of today take a different view.

Fia is supporting Ferrari every step of the way and this just proves it even more!
Actually, no it doesn't. It only potentially proves that the FIA doesn't like Lewis Hamilton.

Also, did I ever say that I thought Hamilton should have been penalised? No, I did not. If I were a steward, I probably would have let it go. It's not worth a 25 second penalty, in my opinion. But I'm not a steward and I can't fully justify it because I'm not trained in that respect. Neither are you.
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Old 09-07-2008, 09:11 PM   #33
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Most of us are to be honest.. i do part time stewarding! (Amateur and still learning) So your input above was done with NO knowledge and only what’s on paper if even that. So its flawed, Hamilton did the right thing and should NOT have been penalised. Kimi should have been flagged moved down a position on the grid for his driving, IF we want to follow paper work. When Hamilton Merged in front of Kimi at the turn he LET him pass and then stuck behind. AS you might recall it happened in Germany Where he over took the car in the chicane and didn’t allow him to pass he got fined. He let the Ferrari pass this time and still go fined! Unfortunately you logic is lacking of proper knowledge.

Sorry mate i like your input but sometimes its WELL and ABOVE weirdness! i don’t know HOW you come to your conclusions BUT I’m pretty sure when it comes to politics your pretty good at it

As I said before and as EVERYONE is seeing but your most of you are failing to acknowledge. FIA is supporting Ferrari. I think it might because they are bringing in the most money but it’s in NO way sportsmanship.

FIA and F1 Should go there own ways.!! FIA has been a massive ANCHOR on F1 and this is just proof with a cherry on top!
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Old 09-07-2008, 09:47 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Rift View Post
If they absolutely must have punished him they should have left it for the next race not taken away a well deserved and well earned victory.
I'm going to play devils advocate here. - How can you say it was a well-deserved and well-earned victory, if in the stewards opinion, Hamilton was deemed to have an advantage from his shortcut? It couldn't have been a "well earned victory" if the stewards deem Hamilton to have gained by going off course, and hence the penalty.

Having said that, I feel it was highly likely that Hamilton would have won regardless.
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Old 09-07-2008, 09:52 PM   #35
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Hi

I've been watching that race yesterday (like i watch all the races if i can, time-wise it's a bit difficult in Asia) and believe me, in that last two laps both me AND my boyfriend (who doesn't like motor racing at all!) were standing up watching that action there!

And even HE said that Lewis, but letting Kimi pass him again, did everything correct - he (my boyfriend) doesn't know jack about F1 rules but applied simple logic - gain advantage by skipping a chicane, then let the opponent pass again - all clear. What followed was clean and pure racing.

Plus, wasn't it Kimi who squeezed Lewis off the track there?? What was Lewis supposed to do, drop the anchor and risk a spin??

I used to be a Ferrari fan but i have completely changed to be a Lewis Hamilton-fan - because of the way he drives, no more. he's an excellent driver, full stop.

But this whole season looks like FIA prefers Ferrari and does everything it can to have them win, on-and-off the track.

Regards.....

Thanh
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:44 PM   #36
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In soccer, one player awards BY CHOICE a penalty/free throw to the other team by making a foul. Lewis had NO CHOICE but to go to the grass or hit Kimi. Mattk, if you really dont see how FIA clearly favor Ferrari then you are really blinded by Ferrari. I bet you think Schumacher won every year by pure talent, not by cheating EVER.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:47 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by styla21 View Post
I'm going to play devils advocate here. - How can you say it was a well-deserved and well-earned victory, if in the stewards opinion, Hamilton was deemed to have an advantage from his shortcut? It couldn't have been a "well earned victory" if the stewards deem Hamilton to have gained by going off course, and hence the penalty.

Having said that, I feel it was highly likely that Hamilton would have won regardless.

I say that IMO steward opinion is obviously different. But IMO he did nothing wrong he pushed hard at the end and won it.
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Old 09-08-2008, 12:39 AM   #38
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I am a Ferrari fan (I don't like any driver), but this is the way I watched the situation: I didn't see anything wrong with Raikkonen's move on the chicane. Hamilton was not ahead of him neither at the enter of the chicane, nor at the middle of it, so Raikkonen had the right to keep the line as he did, and yes, it is a normal move to push off someone if there are scape routes. Hamilton did also the right thing by cutting the chicane to avoid contact, and still did the right thing giving back the position to Raikkonen. Here is where comes the debate: how settled in their positions the cars should be to be considered that the car that cut the chicane has given back the place? and, in this specific case, was there any advantage from the car behind, the one that cut the chicane, on the straight? It can be 'said' that yes, because cutting means that it has more momentum when comes back to the track, but there is no way for us to know, because, according to McLaren's reports on media "Lewis was 6km/h slower than Kimi as they crossed the start-finish line" (http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/9/8334.html), but we do not know how true it is, or what McLaren, neither Ferrari data banks hold of the situation. Only stewards have access to the data.

Having said that, as a personal opinion, much to my sadness, I would feel like Hamilton gave back the spot, but did not deserve that win. To me, alongside Bourdais, Raikkonen was the man of the race and the honorable winner of it.
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Old 09-08-2008, 12:46 AM   #39
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^^^ I wouldnt expect anything different from a Ferrari fan lol .. Hamilton gave teh spot back got it abck and won... Penalties are only given to other teams other then ferrari..
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:15 AM   #40
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I Can't F---ing believe the FIA would do something so stupid!!!! I just don't see where Lewis had any more of an advantage. Unbelievable.
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:21 AM   #41
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Penalties are only given to other teams other then ferrari..
So? Perhaps that means Ferrari did nothing wrong. I think you're the one blinded by obsessiveness with McLaren.

In soccer, one player awards BY CHOICE a penalty/free throw to the other team by making a foul. Lewis had NO CHOICE but to go to the grass or hit Kimi.
You can't distinguish it that way. In every sport, soccer, basketball, cricket, netball, rugby, Aussie rules, well-meaning actions causing disadvantage must still be penalised. Illegal contact not resulting in disadvantage is almost never penalised. The test is always one of advantage/disavantage. The stewards determined that Hamilton got an advantage that he maintained even though he gave the position back. That was a determination of fact. McLaren can appeal, and they can still win, but at the moment, the stewards have told us what happened, and we've got to believe them.
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:32 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by arguapacha View Post

I would feel like Hamilton gave back the spot, but did not deserve that win. To me, alongside Bourdais, Raikkonen was the man of the race and the honorable winner of it.
Ah common that's a bit harsh wouldn't you say the kid did good despite me being a Mclaren fan theirs no question Kimi dominated that race although I really do feel for Kimi going out the way he did sucked but he fell apart a bit at the end with the weather changing which gave Lewis that slight edge he needed.
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:33 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Pokiou View Post
^^^ I wouldnt expect anything different from a Ferrari fan lol .. Hamilton gave teh spot back got it abck and won... Penalties are only given to other teams other then ferrari..
The fact that I do not like Hamilton or any other driver but that I like Ferrari, does not mean I will be totally sided to favour Ferrari always. I just said that, in my opinion (biased and without any way to access that data) Hamilton deserved the place after cutting the chicane, but Raikkonen drove an amazing race and deserved the win. It's a pity for the accident, but that's the way it is.

What it is clear is your anti-Ferrari obsession, which does not help either.
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Old 09-08-2008, 01:37 AM   #44
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A disappointing end to a great race for alot of reasons, first of all the coverage was very lackluster, spending the last lap or so watching Hamilton drive around the track at 40 mph while Heidfeld and Alonso are overtaking 2 cars in one corner. Makes you wonder if the directors that Bernie hires actually watch or even like motorsport.

As for the contraversy, I am a Kimi (not Ferrari) fan and I was very excited for him and also for a close championship when he took the lead early on, when Hamilton made his pass into T1 I was very dubious as to whether or not he had yeilded sufficiently to balance out his cut of the bus stop. Looking back I still don't think the incident is clear cut in itself and there is very little precedent in recent seasons (the incident with Schumi above was in slightly difference circumstances ie. de la Rosa took the position eventually). I would also argue that the 6 km/h speed differential was slightly negated by the fact that Hamilton was immediately able to jump back in Raikkonen's tow and also by the fact that he interfered with Raikkonen's line into the braking zone for T1, two factors which contributed to Hamilton being able to outbrake Raikkonen and retake the lead.

The situation with Rosberg and the yellow flags is again not completely black and white, Hamilton was, by his own admission, on his way off the track already when he encountered Rosberg, Raikkonen simply threaded his way past Rosberg to take the position. I don't think this can really be considered an intentional overtaking manouver.

In the end the FIA's decision was always going to be contravertial one way or another, my only real problem with it is that they took so long to make it. As with Massa in Valencia the air of indecision around these rulings, especially when Ferrari are involved, breeds suspicion and conspiracy theories and they really need to take a look at increasing their transparency. In recent years again and again it has become a problem when the FIA adopts the position that they know better than everyone watching the race because they have access to data that none of us plebs are allowed to see. Highlighted by Max Moseley's chat with Martin Brundle on the grid of Monza in 2006 when his entire argument was based around some magic data which to this day has not seen the light of day, obviously in this situation contraversy will ensue. If the FIA is making fair and impartial decisions then they have little to fear by increasing the transparency of their investigations and publishing the data which proves their case not only to the teams but to the fans who are ultimately writing their paycheques.

Another sad day for F1 as a sport and also for the funniest guy in the paddock.

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Old 09-08-2008, 01:40 AM   #45
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I watched the video and here is what I saw.

When Lewis backed off letting Kimi be in front Lewis immediately tucked in behind Kimi resulting in Lewis being closer to Kimi than he would have been had he followed Kimi through the corner. As soon as he tucked in behind Kimi Lewis was on the gas to stay on Kimi until he could pull out and pass. Had Lewis followed Kimi through the corner it's very unlikely he could have gotten close enough to slipstream and pass.

As to the incident at the chicane, after the race, Ron Dennis said Lewis was ahead at the chicane. Looking at the video shows that Lewis was never ahead at the chicane. Kimi went wide at the chicane and Lewis ran out of room. That can happen when a driver tries to pass on the outside of a turn, that's racing.

What Lewis should have done is stay back until Kimi exited the next corner and there would have been nothing to investigate and Lewis would have passed Kimi before the end of the race.
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