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Old 06-17-2005, 05:25 PM   #16
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First, thanks for the link to the article...interesting to look at the numbers, even if I can't read any of the German.

Originally Posted by Just_me
Originally Posted by SnakeBitten
I dont put much weight on Euro tests of American cars anyway..Its always biased results.
yeah, I feel the same way, thats why I dont read about European cars in american mags, its always baised results.
I agree, but its pretty hard to escape...everyone likes their own cars, the British mags always seem to give the British cars an edge, the Germans the same, and the Americans too. So if you want reliable (or 'healthy' ) specs, just read a mag of the country of the car in question.
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Old 06-18-2005, 01:12 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by sentra_dude
I agree, but its pretty hard to escape...everyone likes their own cars, the British mags always seem to give the British cars an edge, the Germans the same, and the Americans too. So if you want reliable (or 'healthy' ) specs, just read a mag of the country of the car in question.
Or buy car mag from a country that don't produce cars (Say Canada) LOL

Ok...let's see what car mags we have on our home soil......crap....crap....and more crap
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Old 06-18-2005, 05:46 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by nejcdolinsek
Originally Posted by pharzo
lambo vs luxury coupe vs muscle car. what a great comparison....
I love this guy

I agree, this is almost as bad as the M5 vs. F430 crap--- :roll:
Yeah totally agree that the f430 vs m5 was even worse :x
is bmw paying the media to spread this bullshit???
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Old 06-18-2005, 06:46 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by numerouno
Originally Posted by nejcdolinsek
Originally Posted by pharzo
lambo vs luxury coupe vs muscle car. what a great comparison....
I love this guy

I agree, this is almost as bad as the M5 vs. F430 crap--- :roll:
Yeah totally agree that the f430 vs m5 was even worse :x
is bmw paying the media to spread this bullshit???
By the looks of it, BMW may just be behind everything :roll:
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Old 06-18-2005, 11:36 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Just_me
Originally Posted by SnakeBitten
I dont put much weight on Euro tests of American cars anyway..Its always biased results.
yeah, I feel the same way, thats why I dont read about European cars in american mags, its always baised results.
Nice sly little sarcasm there bud lol....Buuuut if you look at American mags they usually prefer Eurocars over the American cars too in overall quality etc...The difference is that Euromags diliberately under drive or misreport the performance of American cars so that they look like total rubbish. You can see American mags articles like Viper vs Porsche 911 tt and it shows both cars truer performance[compared to Euromags] but it perfers the 911 because it much more refined and almost as fast as the Viper...Get it...American cars rarely win overall vs any foreign car in American mags..But they do hold there own in the performance dept. Thats my problem with Euro mags..Just look at that pathetic show about Vette vs Viper. They took them around a track and deliberately kept getting them sideways. Then they declared they dont handle well and are complete pos...You dont see garbage like that from American automotive press when it comes to Euro/Jap cars....

Fine the Viper is a crude pos compared to any Porsche, BMW etc but dont try to make it sound like its Honda slow when everyone knows how fast it is...Come on look at this article in this thread...You honestly think a 500/525 Viper weighing in at 3380 is gonna lose to a much heavier BMW with similar power but way less torque? It wreaks of typical Euro bias...Europeans can believe the Viper is that slow...But if you run into the few Viper owners in your neck of the woods dont be surprised when you get beat or cant pull away from one in the straights or twisties in your BMW,Ferrari, Lambo etc...
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Old 06-18-2005, 12:40 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by SnakeBitten
Originally Posted by Just_me
Originally Posted by SnakeBitten
I dont put much weight on Euro tests of American cars anyway..Its always biased results.
yeah, I feel the same way, thats why I dont read about European cars in american mags, its always baised results.
Nice sly little sarcasm there bud lol....Buuuut if you look at American mags they usually prefer Eurocars over the American cars too in overall quality etc...The difference is that Euromags diliberately under drive or misreport the performance of American cars so that they look like total rubbish. You can see American mags articles like Viper vs Porsche 911 tt and it shows both cars truer performance[compared to Euromags] but it perfers the 911 because it much more refined and almost as fast as the Viper...Get it...American cars rarely win overall vs any foreign car in American mags..But they do hold there own in the performance dept. Thats my problem with Euro mags..Just look at that pathetic show about Vette vs Viper. They took them around a track and deliberately kept getting them sideways. Then they declared they dont handle well and are complete pos...You dont see garbage like that from American automotive press when it comes to Euro/Jap cars....

Fine the Viper is a crude pos compared to any Porsche, BMW etc but dont try to make it sound like its Honda slow when everyone knows how fast it is...Come on look at this article in this thread...You honestly think a 500/525 Viper weighing in at 3380 is gonna lose to a much heavier BMW with similar power but way less torque? It wreaks of typical Euro bias...Europeans can believe the Viper is that slow...But if you run into the few Viper owners in your neck of the woods dont be surprised when you get beat or cant pull away from one in the straights or twisties in your BMW,Ferrari, Lambo etc...
I was only reffering to performance numbers and I have seen better times for Viper in European carmags, actually this is the worst time I seen for Viper in a germancarmag.

You only seem to comment on the acceleration for the Viper. Do you speak german? Im sure they said some very positive things about the Viper.

You cant always blame torque, its the whole package that make a car fast. for instance M6 use a 7-gear SMG, im 100% sure that a M6 with manuel gearbox would be much slower than with a SMG. I understand this that you're a Viper fan? then I understand why you're skeptical

check this link, much better acceleration for Viper
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=55426
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Old 06-18-2005, 09:09 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Just_me
You cant always blame torque, its the whole package that make a car fast. for instance M6 use a 7-gear SMG, im 100% sure that a M6 with manuel gearbox would be much slower than with a SMG. I understand this that you're a Viper fan? then I understand why you're skeptical

check this link, much better acceleration for Viper
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=55426
Im a car guy period...What I dont like is biased journalism and it seems the Euro mags have that in spades when it comes to American cars..You can choose to ignore that fact if you wish so you can harp on the fact that I like Vipers but thats ok..We all see what we want to. As I said I like all cars that are about performance. I could care less if the Viper/Vette gets beat etc.. Just stop handicapping them.

Ive been watching Top Gear and reading Euro mags for years and that one fact is inescapable. Top Gear tested an SRT10 in the wet and it got a 1:28. It was better than waht some fast cars did in the dry. They said on a previous show that the wet/dry lap times are like 4-5 sec difference. That would put the pos Viper at around a 1:24 or lower time smack dab in GT3/360 CS territory..Yet they called the car ungainly, pos, doesnt handle well etc.Jezus...They did the similar thing to the Vette..Ran a real good time [1.25?]and called it crap. We all know Vette/Viper arent up to the high end Euro standards of fit and finish etc but come on they haul ass on a track.

As for your statment in quotes you are absolutely correct. I had forgotten about the 7 gear smg box..Incredible technology. Shifts faster than any human can....Im not upset that the Viper lost, Im upset at how consistantly it keeps getting bad numbers in Euro mags. I mean some are not even close.

Put it this way..Bias takes away from the joy of the comparison..You want to be like "man car X is faster then car Y because the numbers are consistant or close the the norm. But when you have it way off like Euro mags seem to mostly do, it makes you wonder.

How would you feel if American mag Motor Trend ran a Porsche TT vs Vette and the Porsche did 12.8 @ 113 and the Vette ran 12.3 @ 117...You'd be up in arms about it not being a fair test..something has got to be wrong with that Porsche RiiiiiiiiGHT????
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Old 06-18-2005, 09:37 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Just_me
Originally Posted by SnakeBitten
I dont put much weight on Euro tests of American cars anyway..Its always biased results.
yeah, I feel the same way, thats why I dont read about European cars in american mags, its always baised results.
Actually just so you know, the mainstream American magazines will do what ever they can to make the US car lose in any comparison.

It's like a bizarre extesion of the Conervative vs Democrat arguments - imports are just better - there for in every comparison the local car must suck, and the best resonse you'll get will be a "wow the Corvette/Viper/Mustang/Saleen etc was pleasently surprising" etc etc..

So you will rarely if ever find an article that isn't biased TO the Euro car...

Originally Posted by SnakeBitten
How would you feel if American mag Motor Trend ran a Porsche TT vs Vette and the Porsche did 12.8 @ 113 and the Vette ran 12.3 @ 117...You'd be up in arms about it not being a fair test..something has got to be wrong with that Porsche RiiiiiiiiGHT????
The do this all the time.
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Old 06-19-2005, 06:15 AM   #24
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No point arguing with americans, the most powerful country in the world , you guys have the new Jesus overthere, George Bush. He will nuke me if I start to bash american carmags

RC45, I thought you were dead cause it took a long time before you enter this thread
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Old 06-20-2005, 04:15 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Just_me
No point arguing with americans, the most powerful country in the world , you guys have the new Jesus overthere, George Bush. He will nuke me if I start to bash american carmags

LOL...
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Old 06-21-2005, 01:49 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by RC45
Actually just so you know, the mainstream American magazines will do what ever they can to make the US car lose in any comparison.
That is surprisingly true in most cases, 350z winning a shit load of comparisions for one, but one exception I found in most magazines is the new c6. Seems to win in most things.
They also seem to enjoy bashing the Viper a lot aswell in American magazines.
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Old 06-24-2005, 05:12 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by brembo
Isnt this typical, when American cars are loosing out in car tests in magazines it biased, you just cant admit the fucking things are useless, buy a import and get a good car......
What do you Import fan boyz say when Vette/Viper is kicking your asses at racetracks all around the world eh? Whats that about useless? I thought so..
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Old 06-24-2005, 05:43 PM   #28
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you guys make me laugh. All you need is a few grand to get a good article in mototrend for example
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Old 06-25-2005, 05:22 PM   #29
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Exremely impressive acceleration for the M6. Takes the awesome performance of the M5 that one step further.

Do note, however, that the M6 was shod with tires not even available as an option.
"The M6 (measured weight 1761 kg) with its Pirelli P Zero Corsa tires is 2,1 s faster on the small Hockenheim circut than its about 80 kg heavier M5 sibling (measured weight 1844 kg) which was tested with the Conti SportContact 2 tires. On the slalom course the M6 (67,9 km/h average speed) drives the M5 (64,9 km/h average speed) into the ground. The r-compound tires on the M6 *should be* the main reason for that results. The dealers are now faced with the problem to explain their customers why BMW fits the M6 press cars with Pirelli P Zero Corsa tires but the customers only get the Conti SportContact 2 tires. The reason for this fact is that BMW has got clear-cut agreements with Continental. Therefore the Pirelli tires are subject to the add-on market, and surely the better choice for sporty-oriented drivers. The fact that the Pirelli tires – in contrary to other r-compound tires like the Michelin Cup tires used for the M3 – are amazingly good on wet surfaces makes decision very easy."

The M5's Conti's have treadwear rating of 280. The Pirelli's (as equipped on the M6 for this test) are rated 60. Not the same manufacturer, but nevertheless it's safe to assume vastly different levels of compound.

Tires make a huge difference in performance and lap times. It was Autocar that tested a Monaro fitted with all-season Continentals vs the identical car tested on R-compound street Dunlops. With the softer rubber and more aggressive tread, the car was some 3-5 seconds faster per lap in the dry. In the wet it was another matter. The Continentals were quicker and by a substantially larger margin.
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