Good ol' W. Bush...

[graywolf624]

"but when I see so many iraqui ppl pissed off beucause they love Saddam and they don't want help from outside all their shit.. wel"

We also regularly see pics of the people happy to be free here. So it's not clear sided over there. Time will tell, I feel we can't judge the situation till it is said and done.

That being said, well stated.

[Kangaroo Boy]

Originally Posted by graywolf624 Please people, at least research before you make claims. Saying that the gulf war had anything to do with outsting saddam or the Iraqi people is just plain uninformed. "More Americans are starting to loose Faith with this war. " And your basis for such a comment comes from where? Certainly not polls, which have Bush with a better approval rating then the last 4 presidents. As for if bombers hit Australia, I bet the US would be by your side to help with aide. Who spends the most on foreign aide? I'll give you a hint... U...S...

Give me another 48hours,I'll give you more info on this subject,this is all coming off my head.Its not bad for a person that failed History and English in high school.

[graywolf624]

First of all there havnt been found any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and that was one of the heaviest arguments for this war. There have been lying from the US on things that have happened in the war to get support for it (pow`s). You said that the gulf war wasnt to get rid of Saddam and thats true it was to protect the oil fields,not liberate Kuwait, that is just a side effect of saving the flow of oil. And Oil is what this last war is all about to, you "graywolf624" dont give a fuck about the Iraqi people, as long as you get cheap gas, and low taxes. You also say that no country does anything just cuz the US says so, well I dont think Blair would have gone in on it if Bush and his administration hadnt pushed so hard as they did, cuz if you havent noticed its not like all the English people support this Oil robbery from the US. The US never do anything if its not to look after their own interests, so dont give us this propaganda that your government feeds you, and you swallow with out thinking. It will be nice to see in 5-10 years when its over and there are investigations on coruption after the war with who got contracts in Iraq, and who they know and who gave them.

When did they lie about pows? Funny I dont remember that.
Some other points, no the war wasn't over weapons of mass destruction it was over the fact that we felt Iraq was a threat to our national security. (Heck, there still may be wmd found in Iraq). Whether this worked or was legit, well thats your opinion. The US and it's people truly fear threat from Iraq.
As for gulf war, you are wrong. Our ally Saudi Arabia asked us to come over there and protect them. They also asked us to return stability to the region by freeing Kuwait.

I have to ask you something straight up. If it were all about oil, don't you think we would have just claimed some of this terretory for ourselves, rather then continue paying for it. At the moment we are still doing that with Iraq. We have done that all along.
So what has Bush stollen. Where is the tech that we have taken any of their oil. PROVE IT! In fact, we want to rebuild the country and leave. This is what we are working on, whether it is done correctly lies on your political stance and what happens in the future. Basing your research on what may come to pass does not prove anything.

Ok, first off, nothing is ever done without your own interest. There is no such thing as an unselfish act. But lets look at our aide: ethipiopia, troops in bosnia, ect. I fail to see the major benefits.

I love the assumptions of corrution without any proof. Can you at least provide something with some basis in proof.


For the record, I wasn't in favor of the attack on iraq. That being said, I really wish you would look at fact rather then just blindly following rhetoric. I am also not a Bush supporter. Frankly though, I see so much poor research going on that I have to come to the defense. Do some research, and no the socialist propoganda book does not count as research.

[graywolf624]

"Ther was a incident in the start of the war,and if you try to remember something else than propaganda then maybe you will remember this too. "

Still no proof, just words.

"Yes Saudi asked you as you said, but you would never have done it if it wasnt for oil, and how should it return stabilety to the region with just getting saddam out of Kuwait, he was still there, and the presence of your troops in Saudi are the reason the trade center went down too, so that was a great call by your government not to pull your troops out when you had got Saddam out.
And to answer your question abot claiming terretory for yourself, you probably would if you tought you could get away with it. "

So lets see, you are basing your entire arguement on what you think someone is thinking rather then what has actually happened or been said. That is a dangerous game you are playing my friend. Under that I could suggest that your whole arguement is based on the fact that you wish to push your agenda and is a complete fabrication because you hate capitalism. I don't believe that, and perhaps you should consider that before you make assumptions.


"And to say that the US gives the most in Aid is not true either you got to compare it to how much is given compared to how many people lives in the country.
"
Actually, we gave much more then any other country even per capita.

"For the coruption topic dont you find it a bit strange that halliburton get contracts in Iraq with out other companies being able to bid on it?
"

Actually, they looked into that and proved it wasn't as sinister as other people thought.


"Ther was a incident in the start of the war,and if you try to remember something else than propaganda then maybe you will remember this too. "

Still nothing at all about this so called incident. It never happened.

"And you are screaming in every post about facts behind our claims maybe you should do that on some of the things you claim to?"

Fine here we go:

American Economic crisisoh and I am an economics minor, so dont even try to argue on this front). http://money.cnn.com/2001/11/26/economy/recession/
started march 2001. Long before the Iraqi war. Improving economy in America: http://openhere.com/current/1118867985.stm

Reasons for gulf war: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001293.html
Acqusations and convictions against clinton and his regime: http://www.greaterthings.com/News/Clinton_Scandals/

approval rating of george bush: http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...c04.poll.bush/

Reasons for war in iraq national security, read the original war decleration speech.


No where is your proof we have oil derricks there or have gotten any special treatment with respect to oil?

Your whole arguement so far has been, they are acting this way because... And you are basing the decision to believe this not on their actions or their words, but on some deep seated bias. Good grief man, wake up! I'm not even for the war. I haven't once said your wrong for being against the war or for not liking bush. All I have said is your underlying reasons are wrong. They have no basis in fact. The stuff I have given you does.

IF you are against the war, argue that the security threat wasn't as big as we percieved. IF you are against bush actually attack one of his policies. Don't spout off false things like the war caused the economy to go bad or we went to war in the gulf to gain control of oil. We don't and we never will have control of oil. You are just falling further and further into rhetoric, and I feel bad you don't see it. I personally don't like Bush, he is to socialist. But that is me. I wouldn't resort to, oh he said a few things screwy in a speech either. Absolutly nothing I have said is trying to place thoughts into the heads of others. Everything I have said, is based on what actually was said and (this is what is important) WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED!

[graywolf624]

oh and for the, bushisms are horrible. We have goreisms:

For al gore:
"I was recently on a tour of Latin America, and the only regret I have was that I didn't study Latin harder in school so I could converse with those people."

"If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."

"Democrats understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."

"Welcome to President Clinton, Mrs. Clinton, and my fellow astronauts."

"Mars is essentially in the same orbit... Mars is somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, and water. If there is water, that means there is oxygen. If oxygen, that means we can breathe."

"What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is."

"The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history. I mean in this century's history. But we all lived in this century. I didn't live in this century."

"I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy - but that could change."

"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared.'"

"Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things."

"I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good judgments in the future."

"The future will be better tomorrow."

"We're going to have the best-educated American people in the world."

"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history."

"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."

"We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a *part* of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe. We are a *part* of Europe."

"Public speaking is very easy."

"I am not part of the problem. I am a Democrat."

"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."

"When I have been asked who caused the riots and the killing in L.A., my answer has been direct and simple: Who is to blame for the riots? The rioters are to blame. Who is to blame for the killings? The killers are to blame.

"Illegitimacy is something we should talk about in terms of not having it."

"We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur."

"For NASA, space is still a high priority."

"Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children."

"The American people would not want to know of any misquotes that Al Gore may or may not make."

"We're all capable of mistakes, but I do not care to enlighten you on the mistakes we may or may not have made."

"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it."

"[It's] time for the human race to enter the solar system."

Look up clintonism for the difference between slimey and poor public speaker.

[graywolf624]

Do me a favor everyone. Take some time to do a little research on these things. Ignore what you have been told to think and ignore what you think someones inner motivations are, and look at what has actually transpired and what has been said. Then you can develop how you feel about the situation in the correct manner. That has been my point. As I said before, I don't necessarily believe in the war, but it truly bothers me to see someone blindly establish an opinion without knowing the facts.

[TT]

BTW, I know hot discussions can build some strong friendship or relationships and JW is a pretty "free" space, but let's try not to go to far (just in case)

BTW, "strange" to see such discussion into "jokes & humor"

[graywolf624]

BTW, "strange" to see such discussion into "jokes & humor"

I always say politics is one big joke
I'm done, as long as people are actually bothering to look into the research I have reached my goal in this discussion. Whether they agree enters the realm of opinion which is less important. So no fears about too far here.

[Jabba]

Originally Posted by brembo First of all there havnt been found any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and that was one of the heaviest arguments for this war. And Oil is what this last war is all about too.

They have found and removed two weapons of mass destruction Uday and Qusay Hussein and captured chemical Ali responsible for the gassing of 5000 Kurds. Think how many innocent Iraqi's will not die in the future as a result of that alone.

We are not doing the Oil conspiracy theory here so I am locking this one.