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pharzo · 12-16-2005, 07:00 AM

Guys...murder has nothing to do with pre-meditation

Murder is the legal finding that homicide was commited with intent to kill (malice aforethought in UK terms)

Manslaughter is pretty much everything else. If there was no intent to kill but homicide was commited due to negligence or diminished capacity (ie being a minor and drunk)

This is not a failing of the legal system, it's working just as it should. Law should be general, and not decided on a case by case basis.

Also, I don't really see hate crime as a motivator being added to the charges

Mr Morley, a survivor of the Admiral Duncan pub bombing, was one of eight people savagely assaulted by the group in an hour-long rampage of indiscriminate “happy slapping” attacks last October.

Key word, indiscriminate. Just because Mr. Morley happened to be gay, does not mean that this was why he was attacked.

jakaracman · 12-16-2005, 05:45 PM

I'm sorry, but a kick (and especially more of them) in the head can and very probably will kill. So this one was premeditated, they should not be allowed to use "we just kicked him, did not want to kill" as excuse ...
And being drunk should not be mitigating circumstance ... Nobody forced the to get drunk ... And being a minor? So what? If they can kill, they can be executed ...

12-16-2005, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by pharzo

Guys...murder has nothing to do with pre-meditation

Murder is the legal finding that homicide was commited with intent to kill (malice aforethought in UK terms)

Manslaughter is pretty much everything else. If there was no intent to kill but homicide was commited due to negligence or diminished capacity (ie being a minor and drunk)

This is not a failing of the legal system, it's working just as it should. Law should be general, and not decided on a case by case basis.

Also, I don't really see hate crime as a motivator being added to the charges

Mr Morley, a survivor of the Admiral Duncan pub bombing, was one of eight people savagely assaulted by the group in an hour-long rampage of indiscriminate “happy slapping” attacks last October.

Key word, indiscriminate. Just because Mr. Morley happened to be gay, does not mean that this was why he was attacked.

I'm sorry no intent to kill, that is total rubbish, anyone who kicks someone in the head knows there is a good chance they will be seriously injured. The no intent thing can be argued if someone is hit once, some friends of mine witnessed someone get hit last year, ended up a vegetable for the rest of his life because he hit the ground hard :bah: there wasn't intent to kill however. Setting about someone in this manner should be classed as murder IMO, although this may well be within the bounds of the law it doesn't mean that the law should not be changed. Cases should be considered on an individual basis, with circumstances taken into account. Going by Jon's legal definition I'd certainly say there was malice, but then i'm not the one who decides :bah:

pharzo · 12-17-2005, 03:24 AM

I'm sorry no intent to kill, that is total rubbish, anyone who kicks someone in the head knows there is a good chance they will be seriously injured.

Just because they know there was a chance, doesn't mean there was intent to kill. They didn't intend to kill him, so there was no intent to kill. They're just some stupid kids who thought it would be funny. They should be charged with manslaughter, and being severe dumbasses

Mattk · 12-17-2005, 06:13 AM

Agreed. Pretty much what I said in my last (ignored) post.

It wasn't murder, plain and simple.

graywolf624 · 12-17-2005, 11:38 AM

One could argue they had malice and intended bodily harm. It could go either way imho. Regardless they should go to jail for a long time.

pharzo · 12-17-2005, 11:40 AM

One could argue they had malice and intended bodily harm. It could go either way imho. Regardless they should go to jail for a long time.

So you would charge them with assault? Manslaughter is actually more severe

graywolf624 · 12-17-2005, 12:08 PM

The definition of murder as you read from john S (the lawyer among us) was:

Unlawful homicide committed with malice aforethought, express or implied. Express malice exists where the person killing does so with the intention of causing death or grevious bodily harm, yet intentionally does the act which to his knowledge is likely to cause such death.

Was the intent GBH, Id say that is debatable as I mentioned above. Ultimately as John stated it might fly once, but ultimately it would get shot down sometime in an appeal (cause it is debatable as I said)

Though actually they should be charged with assualt in addition to manslaughter and host of other charges. Jack that shit up so its the maximum number of years humanly possible.
I mean theres no way they should get the same penalty as someone who kills someone else in a car accident.

jakaracman · 12-17-2005, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by pharzo

I'm sorry no intent to kill, that is total rubbish, anyone who kicks someone in the head knows there is a good chance they will be seriously injured.

Just because they know there was a chance, doesn't mean there was intent to kill. They didn't intend to kill him, so there was no intent to kill. They're just some stupid kids who thought it would be funny. They should be charged with manslaughter, and being severe dumbasses

If there is a big probability that something will happen (and several hard kicks in the head mean at least 75% chance that the kicked one will die) and you do it anyway, it's premeditated in my book. If I shoot you intentionaly, by your reckoning it's a manslaughter ... I just wanted to wound you, I killed you by accident.
Kicking someone in the head equals intent to kill ... Plain and simple. If legal sytem (or judga or whooever) seys differently, it or he is supporting the criminals ... Which is wrong.

pharzo · 12-17-2005, 04:42 PM

If I shoot you intentionaly, by your reckoning it's a manslaughter ... I just wanted to wound you, I killed you by accident.

[lawyer mode]
I guess it would depend on where you shot me. If you shot me in the leg because I slept with your wife, and then the ambulance broke down on the way and I bled out and died, would you be charged with murder? Or if you punched me in the chest (the wife thing again) and this led to commotio cordis (i think this happens if you hit the chest in the upstroke of the t-wave), you would also not be charged with murder. The point is, if you do not intend to kill someone, and you do, it's not murder

[/lawyer mode]

jakaracman · 12-20-2005, 05:28 PM

[annoying mode]
I guess there is a diffrence between something you described (hitting someone once and so on ...) and kicking someone repeatedly in the head, dont you think???
[/annoying mode]