About all the bashing on american car parts

[Sinister Angel]

this IS a bit of a flame.

For one thing, I just love all the ignorant shit said about pushrod motors. I hear alot of this "oh, it doesn't make torque above so and so rpm, and it only redlines and a certain rpm" fuck that shit.
Watch the American LeMans series sometimes. Corvette comes first in it's class just about everytime, and overall it's only beat by Bentleys and Audi LMP900 cars running TT V-8s. Oh wait, did I mention, that same corvette is a naturally aspirated V8 pushing serious amounts of power. And who happens to be behind the corvette? Why Ferrari of course, and then porsche. I'm not saying these cars suck, I'm saying the people saying American performance sucks can eat my ass with a spoon. Now let's not forget the GT-40. That was definately some Ferrari challanging material right there. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, BMW uses GMs hydramatic trannies in their 3 series cars for the folks that want an automatic for some reason. I think i'm done. This isn't aimed for the people that just prefer european cars over American cars, it's for the fools like fedezyl who just make ignorant statements.

</flame>

[666fast]

While I don't think it's a good idea to intentionally start a thread to flame someone, I understand what you mean.

My friend is exactly what you mentioned, all American cars suck in his opinion. Of course he drives a 1985 VW Cabriolet. Audi,Porshe. VW and BMW are all he cares about. He even thinks Ferrari's and Lamborghini's are pointless. Sorry, they aren't. Maybe he is mad he can't afford one. I don't know, but I have been trying to get him to understand what a supercar is about.
American cars are good, but their build quality really is going downhill. I'm not talking about race cars, I mean cars off of the dealers lot.
GM has had some serious trouble with some cars. From flimsy, shitty plastic all over the place to uneven body panel gaps. It doesn't help that GM is damn near bankrupt either.
Ford is doing so-so, I know a lot of people don't like them, but hey, they are the pioneers of car production. That has to say something. They are also losing money, it doesn't help that their cars don't match up to it's competition. The Taurus is getting it's ass handed to them by the Camry and Accord. Simply because they are both better cars in terms of looks, and build quality. Face it, if people think it looks cheap and shitty, they will think it's cheap and shitty.
Ford and GM are the masters of Badge engineering. What is the difference between a GMC pickup and a Chevy pickup? Not much.
What is the difference between the Taurus and the Mercury Sable? not much. Putting a different badge on a car doesn't make it better than it's counterpart.
American cars a fine by me, I just wish all the newer cars weren't so damned ugly. The Pontiac Aztek for example, who let this thing out of the design stage? It is so goddamned ugly, the fact that it made it to production means someone at Pontiac screwed up. It's already been dropped from production. Or maybe the Mercury Maruder, somewhat cool car, but pretty much a failure. While it wasn't intended to be a huge seller, it didn't move enough cars to keep it around. Which is kind of sad, because it was a pretty cool car.
American Engines are just fine. Many people like to bash them because for the most part, they get worse gas economy than most cars outside of North America. While that may be true, we pay a shitload less for a gallon of gas than the rest of the world. Right now, I can get a gallon of gas for as low as $1.55 gallon.
There is also nothing wrong with a pushrod V8. It creates plenty of torque and horsepower without needing to rev to 9000rpms. The S2000 needs due to a severe lack of torque. the reason why many manufacturers here haven't made a different version of BMW's VANOS or Honda's Vtec, is because it's not needed if you think about it. Well, Ford has it's Zetec, but that is about it if I remember correctly.
A OHC engine makes plenty of power without it. The pushrod V8's are a proven design that works just fine. Reminder for the rest fo the world, we don't have small roads like much of the UK. So the size of a car is only really important to us when we consider how often we will be hauling crap around. Very few people here will care about the cars overall size. I myself wouldn't want a huge ass car, but most people believe bigger cars are safer. Yea, it's safer for the people in the big car, but everyone else in something smaller is worse off.
When it comes to racing, it's pretty much just like the rest of the world. The more money you throw at it, the better you will do. you can get more parts, better drivers, better pit crew, the whole shebang.
The Corvettes do so well, not only because it's a great car, but they have an excellent team. They don't win simply because they have a pushrod V8 for an engine. There is a lot more to think about than just the engine if a racing team wants to be successfull.
Nascar is the king of Motorsports in the Untied States. All cars are mandated to use Iron block V8's. Toyota just announced that they plan to run a Camry in 2007. They too will need to use a Iron block V8. Aluminum would be better because of weight savings, but they would not stand up to the abuse. They would smoke bearings in no time. Although, I've read some talk about BMW and their inline six possibly entering Nascar. In my opinion, it won't happen anytime soon. Definately not by 2007 like Toyota.
It all comes down to opinion on what is the better car 90% of the time. The other 10%, is for the cars that are obviously better than it's competitor. Like how the Accord is a thousand times better in every aspect than the Ford Taurus.


Sinister Angel, BMW may use GM's automatic trannies for their 3 series cars, but that decision could have been made for a number of reason. Not just because it's a good transmission. I'm sure BMW saves quite a bit of money by buying them from GM than designing and producing their own. R&D is not cheap.

There is nothing wrong with American motors, no matter what people may say about them. They really can't be compared to the likes of Ferrari and Lamborghini either. The obvious answer is that a mass produced car can't have that kind of technology and build materials. They definately don't have the time to hand build cars if they want to have a hot seller. The top selling cars of all time are not $300,000 supercars, they are $30,000 and less, ordinary cars for Joe Schmo.

I'll say it again, there is nothing inherently wrong with Amercan cars or it's engines. It's all in the Demographics.

Only one question, did anyone read my huge post?

[Sinister Angel]

I read it all

I think the statement about the fuel economy might be a bit off in somecases depending on what you are looking at. I was talking to a guy at the gas station who has a Corvette Z06. I asked what he usually got on the highway. He said around 26. Now let's say you look at the economy of lets say.. an Audi TT coupe. 28 on the highway, yet at the same time its only pushing 250 HP. I think if an American sports car can push 350+ hp w/26 MPG on the highway, that's pretty damned good. I also think fuel economy when dealing with a sports car can kind of be a joke at times. It does take some fuel to feed the ponies if you are getting on it. But even for a dailing driving car with some getup and go, for example a pontiac Grand Prix GTP, you are looking at 260 HP out of a blown 3.8 litre V6 yet it's still getting 28 MPG. That GTP also costs a few grand less than said TT coupe. I'm sure I could come up with more examples, but I think you get the point about the fuel economy thing.

[666fast]

Well, you have a point, but try looking at trucks too. Afterall, it's mostly trucks that use the big pushrod V8's. Most trucks get decent mileage, hell some get very good mileage. But for the most part, it's not on par with the rest of the world.
A friends Chevy Pickup with a small block 350, gets about 12mpg when just driving around, If he gets on it, it'll go way down. Shove the pedal to the floor on a Subruban, tahoe, Expedition, H2, etc.. and on some of the trucks, I bet it'll get less than 1 mile per gallon.

[AlienDB7]

You're right. Big american engines *can* have good mileage. I get average of 11L/100km on my gm 3400 while my friend's A4 1.8T gets 16L/100km. The main reason is the auto box it has. Basically I'm on 4th (0.68) gear whenever the car is over 60kph. Yes, gas is expensive here and I pretty much have to keep the tach needle at around 1500rpm to get that mileage. If you're driving on freeway 90% of the time, an american motor is fine. On the other hand, it does guzzle quite a bit of gas if you're driving in the city (with anything less than a feather foot).

In terms of quality, I do notice lots of cost cutting by gm, ford and chrysler in last few years. Just compare the interior of a 2000 american car with a 2003 of the same model/trim. Don't get me wrong, I still like american cars and their low end torque, but the build quality can really make people think twice about buying another american car.... you can't believe how many times the rotors on my car had to be machined/replaced in the first 20k km!

Probably one of the major reasons why someone would buy an american car is the excelletn performance/price ratio. A cdn$12k (us$8.4k) cavalier has an ecotec 2.2 with 140hp and 150lb-ft torque. That's alot of power for so little money (price of a kia rio).

In case you wonder, I don't like jap cars either. Most of the americanized versions they have here are ugly. Seems like only the europeans are good at designing good looking (affordable) cars nowadays

*This is NOT a flame war*

[666fast]

AlienDB7, what kind fo car do you have? I know for awhile, some Chrysler and Didge cars had rotors that were too thin and too small. they would work, but the rotors would be warped in no time flat.
A friend used to work a a car parts place and he said it's the most common thing that Intrepid and Avenger owners would buy.
A lot of people started ordering frozen rotors to get rid of the problem.

[TT]

Interesting thread IMO. Even if it started like a flaming one, it seems to me pretty polite and entertaining to read.

As for me, loving cars in general, I can't say something like "american cars suck" or "European cars are sissies"

Obviously, for us European, used to drive mostly 4 or 6 cyl car, is always strange to compare something like a straight-6 taken from an M3, with high specific output with a big V8 or V10, with lot of cubic inches but realively "low" power output..
But well, I won't say european engine (or japanese) are better... I prefer to say they are simply different.. Europe is not USA and USA is not Japan, so it's normal to see different evolutions on cars...

The only thing hard to understand to me is why most of the cars sold in US and in Europe must have different trim levels: a nice and elegant one for Europe an a more basic one for US. Now things are slowly changing (in interior like in chassis and so on), but this was always a mistery for me...

[draak666]

Let me start by saying that I'm not very fond of American and Asian cars. In the first place that's because of their looks. However, since I grew up with seeing mostly European cars, and since the design of a car is influenced by the designer's background and culture, that is only logical. In this perspective I don't expect Americans to like the design of European cars either.

There are some American cars that I like, e.g. the Viper, Corvette, Hummer, Camarro, Jeep, Mustang, Gt40. But those are allready more expensive cars, with a background. The cheaper one that I see on the streets from time to time is a Chrysler Neon. Everyone should agree that this is a very, very ugly car.

Also I'd like to make a remark on the engines. Since they are bigger and get lower milage than European engines, it's easy to deduct that they are less efficient. I know gas is cheaper in America, so there isn't a need to improve efficiency. That's just the way it is. Now, because those V8's are less efficient they lend themselves more easily to improvements. That is why NOS is a lot more popular in America than in Europe. You simply cannot improve an 6 cyl. M3 engine (not a lot anyway). It is allready on the edge.

Oh, AlienDB7 I would suggst that friend of yours to have his car checked. An A4 1.8T that needs 16L/100km? That's not right. Does he ever change gears or does he drive in 1st gear all of the time.

[sportVeloce]

Audi fuel economy stats for the A4 1.4T
Manual, FrontTrak: 22/31 (city/hwy)
Manual, quattro: 21/29
multitronic: 23/29
Tiptronic: 20/28

16... sounds like he has a Yank-Tank motor

source Audi USA: http://www.audiusa.com/features_spec...ode-1_,00.html

[stracing]

i hate american cars so flame me!!!! to tell you the truth i pick japanese or european cars any day.

i just hate them coz i don't like their styling and build quality. the previous dodge viper is sold here and i can honestly say i'm quite dissapointed by how excited ppl get when i read the forums. also amercian cars don't look like they handle well on a track. thats why i like jap cars coz they're cheap and most don't need suspension tweaking to go around corners fast. sure they aren't nicely designed like the europeans, but at least they get their job done on track (also leave the ricers out of this, i have seen proper tuned japanese vehicles) plus i don't care if a integra type-r can't do 0-100kmh in under 5s. i'll be happy pulling high lateral g's all day. also i'm not rich so i can't replace a car every 2years or so. therefore i need a car will good build quality and japanese cars can offer that.

now for why i like european cars is because they have nicely designed cars. if i say my car is from italy most will automatically think "wow an exotic" (bar fiat). how can you not love designs from pininfarina, italdesign, bertone etc i love european technology even if they don't make sense to me.

i don't mind the pushrod v8 engines, simple design, big power potential but thats all there is to sing about. but i guess americans just like drag racing and going around in circles. if you like that, fine by me, it doesn't involve or concern me. the closest cars we get that is similar to american cars are the holden commodore and ford falcon. i just don't like them coz they're fat, heavy and thirsty. everything is cheap bla bla bla

there you go flame me as much as you like it won't bother me. for me not liking american cars will always be stuck in my mind. i'm even trying to dissuade my parents from buying the accord v6 coz its designed in america

wasn't the gt-40 designed and built in britain?

[mendocino]

I think I can put my opinion here, what I think is that american cars, aren't all bad, every market just reply to the buyer's need... that's a simple rule, but it works everywhere, everytime.

japanese car manufacturers have decided to limit the max horsepower to 280... so obviously, they must find something else to go out from the crowd. IMO that's why japanese cars are just so right about handling and cornering speed. Just watch at the best motoring show and you'll see that the cars have just the same top speed and what makes the difference is the road handling.

about europe now. The massive difference between eur and usa is just the price of the gas... and the taxes!!! so car makers just have to make small motors that has massive horsepower (that's not limited here and in the states) and that does as much mpg as possible. Also try to make the car as light as they can, so big engine are not needed. About the build quality... I think it's somehow a matter of tradition, europeans always look at confort and good build quality... just look at the early maybach and rr.

In usa, the gas is just cheap, and they have no bhp restriction at all neither, so no pbls with big engines and low mpg. They just don't make complicated cars. Just look at the difference between a cart and an F1... In fact it depends because now usa seems to wake up and start to put some retriction in fuel consomtion and gaz emission so it's just changing and I think future american cars will just drop the big massive engine to go to modern small ones. I'm just amazed that the only constructor that acheaved in building a fuel cell car is gm.. an american car maker. Well that's not what I would expect.

as long as racing cars is concerned, I think the debate is useless, they have the same rules so it's just about engineering and how much money you spend on it. Every car could be a race winning car with the budget needed, no matter the performance of the original one.

So nothing is the right way, but I think it's great to have such diversity in cars now, because future engineer can learn from each way of building cars, and just make better cars. that''s called evolution, right?

[draak666]

I forgot about the soft suspension of American cars. That sucks big time. Every car enthousiast agrees on that, right?

[mendocino]

Originally Posted by draak666 I forgot about the soft suspension of American cars. That sucks big time. Every car enthousiast agrees on that, right?

Yes, I agree with that, but my father don't... He just hate the elise... he like confort... different point of view, different solutions.

[stracing]

Originally Posted by draak666 I forgot about the soft suspension of American cars. That sucks big time. Every car enthousiast agrees on that, right?

i agree with that. just like jeremy clarkson said, "sofas on wheels"

[SFDMALEX]

Originally Posted by Sinister Angel . And who happens to be behind the corvette? Why Ferrari of course. </flame>

Prodrive just joined ALMS, and the stuff that they done so far is just awesome. That Vette needs some heavy upgrades to beat this car in the future. Did you watch Le Mans? The ferrari was running laps around the Vette. Did you watch Petit Le Mans? That brake on the last lap was just pure luck for the Vettes. The 550 proved it reliability at Le Mans, and things are going to change. The same 550 is dominating the FIA GT series, which trust me, is much tougher then the GTS Class in ALMS.


P.S Im not anti american engine guy, Im just saying that the Vette does not have that much against the Prodrive 550.