Go Back   Sports Car Forum - MotorWorld.net > Automotive Brands Forum > Porsche

Porsche Porsche - the finest German Cars



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-05-2005, 11:48 PM   #16
nurbrun
Regular User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto,Canada
Posts: 1,001
Default

wow i cant wait to see this! sounds amazing
__________________
nurbrun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2005, 01:57 PM   #17
st-anger
Regular User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: AT
Posts: 1,611
Default

…well, Porsche not always hat the “strongest” cars around, to say it, in most of the comparisons Porsches had less hp/torque than the competitors…
top premise of PAG has always been reliability NOT pure power…
today it´s like this, and this is kinda unique in automotive engineering because to handle it like this requires simply perfect working conditions, lot´s of money and time, so engines out of Zuffenhausen have to pass one simple rule: “110%”…
…introduced by Ferry Porsche ALL Porsche engines have to deliver 110% of their nominal output on the test rig, when they “only” deliver 100% they´re demounted and checked again… Porsche is testing ALL their vehicles under the worst conditions, and the Nordschleife is just the starter…
besides, every single information from decades of motorsport history is used for the road cars, and we know that many many Porsche victories were only possible due to superior reliability against way more powerful rivals.

and it´s clearly visible when u just look inside your daily newspaper in the advertising section – ever seen e.g. a good 993 for under 40-50k€ EVEN with apprx 100.000km and above !!???
…most of the cars are getting „kinda“ cheap when they get old and Porsche is THE brand keeping their purchase price, other brands are loosing 50% and more in the first couple of years – and why´s all that – because ppl know that Porsches are nearly indestructible, even with mileages way above 150 or 200.000km, we don´t have very detailed long term studies from the 996 and 997 series – sure – PAG would like to stay respectable with their claims, so no figures for that series, BUT e.g. for the 993 series the long term studies clearly showed that mileages above 300.000 !!! km are no problem if customers meet PAG´s services…
this figure is regardeless if N/A or T engines…
sure, it makes a huge difference if ppl will trackday their cars very ofen and especially here in germany many many customers take their cars to the track like NS – PAG knows that and as I said before WW introduced the new quality standards to deal with that, resulting in even better quality and as a nice side effect – more power…

…to answer your question about the CGT, just WR tested it 30.000!!! km on the NS – one km at NS is compareable with 20km on normal roads – not to speak of the thousands and thousands of km´s done by test engineers all over the world, from Finland to Tokyo and into Death Valley – the engine is the LeMans engine and I think we know how serious PAG takes motor sport, so we think that no one really will ever discover the driving limit with the GT, it CAN be driven every day and I know some ppl that are driving it even in winter here in Europe, but no one really does this – they have other cars like 955´s for that…
the GT is handbuilt and only 2 to 3 cars are leaving Leipzig every day so quality is just superb, to name a certain number is quite hard and also dependent on the driving style of each customer – till now we had not a single major problem with a GT, the worst thing I have seen´d been a torn driveshaft at the right rear axle during a track day at Leipzig – PAG immediately took the GT to the next Porsche workshop replaced the destroyed parts and sent the broken one´s to the EZW for further analyses – the customer payed nothing for all that, he was accommodated in one of the best hotels in Leipzig and had a 955TT as a rental car, besides Porsche Leipzig invited him to the next sports car training for free – just to give u an idea how customers are treated by PAG

- well a bit OT now

yes, u´re right, there´s been a plan by 9ff of a 900+hp GT – an asian customer who already had paid the deposit for a GT asked 9ff what should be possible with the GT, well Mr.Fatthauer only made a rough plan and guess, he´d only build/research such a project on a confirmed basis, would be way to expensive otherwise – well, 9ff deep froze the plan after the asian customer didn´t bought a GT…




IMO it´s better like this, but i´m “afraid” that all the – especially german – tuners already have some plans for the GT – see Sportec…
the original GT engine indeed revved over 10k rpm, see here:

http://www.motorworld.net/forum/show...?p=26818#26818

IMO it´s the wrong way to tune the GT engine with turbos…
…to discuss everything in detail would require way too much time and´d probably get too difficult but i´ll try to give u some ideas on the GT´s engine, the V10 is the engine with the highest compression ratio of all – 12.0:1 ( 11,2:1 for the Enzo ) – a high compression ratio in combination with turbocharging is probably the worst thing one could do to an engine, this´d simply destroy the engine – a fixed rule says: the more boost, the less compression ratio…
reducing the compression ratio whould ensure that the engine won´t start knocking, so that the fuel air mixture won´t self-ignite, a knocking engine will self destroy itself very soon, especially pistons. this can be prevented by higher octane numbers – so higher ignition temps – “colder” sparking plugs, … at a compression ratio of 9:1 and a boost pressure of 1.5bars it´s like having a NA engine with a compression ratio of 15:1 – manufacturers are designing engines that can withstand with 99octan fuel a max compression ratio of 11.3:1 +/- 0.2
of course manufacturers like Porsche, Ferrari, Honda, BMW are running higher compression ratios in their high revving models, an active knocking control is required then to ensure the optimum ignition timing and therefore efficiency. A standard knocking control is not suited for such high revving engines because a high data interpretation is necessary to ensure a good combustion quality and therefore a gentle operation. so structure-borne noise sensors used in standard cars are replaced by ion-current technology the sparking plug acts as a actuator – for the ignition - and sensor for monitoring the combustion process directly in the middle of the combustion and not outside of the combustion chamber.
with this technology power output, fuel efficiency and reliability can be improved…
well, I think it´s enough now

also tuning the high sophisticated engine parts such as cams, intake system, exhaust, could be kinda difficult because the overall system is already nearly perfect and is working together with all the relevant parameters, e.g. the cylinderhead design with the steep intake ports, which, in combination with the steep induction pipes, ensure an optimal mixture supply, a very low total valve angle of 21.4 degrees is the result of the flow optimised port layout. This valve arrangement allows a compact combustion chamber, which, together with a flat and relatively smooth crown and a compression ratio of 12:1, allows a very efficient combustion.

changing different parameters and parts to gain more power would require quite some efforts and would “destroy” the product – there´re some cars that shouldn´t be touched by tuners…
__________________
Sportscars come
Sportscars go
Legends live on
Porsche 911
st-anger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2005, 02:45 PM   #18
lakatu
Regular User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 408
Default

Thanks st-anger for taking the time to respond with such a lengthy and detailed response with lots of excellent info. I wanted to add something along with what you were saying about trying to increase the power output of the CGT. I’m not sure if many people know this but many times when a racing engine is tuned for maximum horsepower they do so at the expense of low end torque and drivability. Many of the racing engines from what I understand are really gutless below 4,000 RPM and have a very narrow power band so the horsepower curve is really steep and peaky. In addition as already noted the increased performance many times is done at the expense of longer-term reliability. I can’t imagine anyone wanting to mess with the CGT that is pure sacrilege .

St-anger thank you for sharing the reliability data. It sounds like the tradition of Porsche is still high performance with long-term reliability. After reading what nthfinity wrote I was beginning to think that Porsche’s increased performance over the years may have had a necessary tradeoff in lower reliability but I am glad to hear that isn’t the case. Have you read anything similar to what nthfinity was referring to as far as high performance engines being designed by other manufactures to last 50,000 miles ?

I may have read something into your statement that wasn’t intended :roll: but it sounded like the 993 series showed that the ratability data was the same regardless whether the car was normally aspirated or TT. Is this really the case? I would have expected that a higher output engine and TT no less would require more maintenance and repairs.

Has there been a series that wasn’t as reliable as some of the other 911 series or one that was maybe more reliable than the reset. For example the 964 is notorious for having engine leaking problems and issues with the clutch. As I mentioned before from what I understand the 3.2L was extremely reliable. Some of that I think was due to the mechanical simplicity of the engine. In your opinion should the 993 and/or the 996 be as reliable or more so than the 3.2L?

Thanks again great stuff. Don’t you just love PC.
__________________
Porsche, there is no substitute. Well except RS Tuning and Manthey.
lakatu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2005, 02:59 PM   #19
nthfinity
Regular User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Detroit
Posts: 9,929
Default

thankyou immensely for the detailed response St-Anger!!! some great information, and now time to do a little research.

there´re some cars that shouldn´t be touched by tuners…
^^^^
i love that statement 8)


well, sure enough, a little searching shows some results

http://www.sportec.ch/de/aktuell/news_detail.cfm?id=56


quick summary
First tests at only 1000 km has shown that the CGT has approximately 600 PS and 610 Nm torque. The development of a better engine electronic adjustment has begun. Next step will be the test of the engine periphery for possible improvements.
Two power levels are planned with 10 to 20 percent increased power output.
Minor body modifications will make the car more perfect.
Brakes and chassis (?) modifications are needles ....
basically making 10-20% improvements in power would be collossal here... 670, and 730 hp respectively... i know this information is already a year old... but doesnt appear to be turbocharged... but there isnt much in the view of pictures of the engine.

again, thanks

as lakatu said, PC is great!

just to clarify, lakatu...
st-a said about the MkII GT2 being a project in added reliabilty... and ended up making more power, i imagine due to new mechanical processes, simulations... use of, or creation of 'exotic alloys'....
__________________
www.nthimage.com
Car photography website
nthfinity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2005, 05:05 PM   #20
st-anger
Regular User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: AT
Posts: 1,611
Default

…don´t want to name brands but yes, there´re quite some manufacturers knowing that their customers only drive their cars at weekends from A to B or for the garage only…

...that´s for sure – definitely MORE maintenance and repair work, I think we already had that topic when we were talking about the “perfect” car for the NS – GT3 RS or GT2!???
I said RS because besides some other reasons it´s a NA car, so less costs in every respect, engine, tyres, fuel, …
but as I said – when speaking of mileage TT cars do not significantly differ from NA one´s – parts are simply stronger and the whole car is designed for more power…
that a TT car is way more expensive is clear – when a engine rebuild is needed this may cost so much money like buying a used average car …

but as hinted before and told by nthfinity parts are now that strong and reliable – due to many many measures - that the normal driver won´t ever meet the limits of his car…

…right, u already said it – there´ve been some problems with the 964 series – but well, can´t think of any major problems in terms of reliability, but to answer that too – yes, the 3.2 is among the most popular Porsches ever because it´s simply indestructible, I think i´ve posted a very nice article on the 3.2 from “GT” – u can read everything in there…
__________________
Sportscars come
Sportscars go
Legends live on
Porsche 911
st-anger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2005, 12:43 AM   #21
lakatu
Regular User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 408
Default

Thanks st-anger for responding to all my questions. It feels a little like old times and I’m sure you are really busy right now so I truly appreciate your sharing what little time you have .
__________________
Porsche, there is no substitute. Well except RS Tuning and Manthey.
lakatu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2005, 01:39 PM   #22
st-anger
Regular User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: AT
Posts: 1,611
Default

vid from 15012005: :arrow: link

Porsche GT3–RS Motorvision special track test @ Oschersleben race track...

MV test driver Tim Schrick´s driving the RS at Motopark Oschersleben, a kinda new but very interesting race track built in 1997, track length is 3.667km and up to 13m wide, 23m altitude difference, 14corners, fasted lap ever driven is a 1:20.206 ( av.speed: 165kmh ) driven by Uwe Alzen in a FIA GT Porsche 911…



…down there u can see a comparison of a Porsche GT3 and a ///M CSL – will post some more stuff and lap times later…
unfortunately i haven´t had the chance to drive a few laps there myself so i´m sorry that i can´t answer all the questions about this specific track and its subtleties…
…at points 2, 3 and 5 – long drawn-out corners – handling and understeering tendency is tested, at point 4, a very fast left bend, turn in behaviour. at point 6 the stability under heavy acceleration out of a corner can be checked, same at point 7 where load cycle changes may occur. finally at point 8 the car´s roll is measured…



…well, i think needn´t add something about the car itself – it´s just superb for the track
__________________
Sportscars come
Sportscars go
Legends live on
Porsche 911
st-anger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2005, 06:26 AM   #23
dingo
Regular User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 6,395
Default

thanks alot st-anger, dl now and will be back with my thoughts
__________________
dingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2005, 05:01 PM   #24
lakatu
Regular User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 408
Default

What an incredible video!!. Best one I have seen so far on the GT3 RS :shock: . I just wish I knew what they where saying but the video itself speaks volumes. It really makes me sad that Porsche didn’t certify this car for the U.S. :x They should have at least given us an option package on the regular GT3 to upgrade to the GT3 RS without the non body structural changes i.e. carbon fiber hood and Plexiglas window. I think that such a car should have been certifiable in the U.S. without additional crash testing…and if they were worried about diluting the appeal of the limited offering they could have forgone the wheel and paint schemes. That would have been perfectly fine with me .

I like the track layout and the variety of corners. Thanks st-anger for providing the video along with the track data and comments about the track. Extremely interesting and you’re right the there really isn’t much to say about the car itself. It is obvious that Porsche did an amazing job tailoring it to the track .
__________________
Porsche, there is no substitute. Well except RS Tuning and Manthey.
lakatu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2005, 05:48 PM   #25
styla21
Regular User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,744
Default

Perhaps i am missing something; when i click the link i am taken to a JW page which reads "The topic or post you requested does not exist".
Have i done this corretly? :shock: Thanks for the info ^^ St Anger it is really cool having insight into the more technical knowledge that we would otherwise not understand just by looking at a vid.. Really appreciated
__________________
styla21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2005, 04:08 PM   #26
st-anger
Regular User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: AT
Posts: 1,611
Default

...styla u have to be in the "download & upload" group to be able to dl the vid - sorry we can´t post it "outside" due to bandwidth limits...

...i´m gald u like the vid lakatu
don´t worry - nothing really that important what they´re saying - just bla bla bla
but i have to admit that it would be VERY good if u could speak some german - there´ll be "quite some" more vids like this one...

...well - marketing my friend :roll:
naaa, to be honest don´t know why there´re no RS available for the us market - well, probably not the typical car for this market...

...hope that i´ll have some time to hit the track at Oschersleben this year and then i´ll be able to provide a FULL report - as always

THX for ya thoughts and contribution lakatu, always good to get some feedback
__________________
Sportscars come
Sportscars go
Legends live on
Porsche 911
st-anger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2005, 02:24 AM   #27
lakatu
Regular User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 408
Default

Sweet, I would love to watch more videos like this one. The driving in this video was much better than in Top Gear . It seems like all of the good videos are either in German or Japanese same for magazine articles. Maybe if I watch these videos over and over again I’ll learn a little German .

In regards to the RS, it seems that the best pieces never make it over to the U.S. We have a long history of getting left out of the higher performance models i.e. 930, 959, 964 RS, 3.8 RS, 993 GT2, 993 RS, RS 996 MKI GT3 and the list goes on. Strange since I think ½ of Porsches sales are on this side of the pond. My understanding is that it is a result of all the costs that are required to certify a U.S. car for U.S. impact protection standard laws. At least we were given the MKII GT3 and the 996 GT2. I’m defiantly grateful for that .

Look forward to hearing a report about your experiences on Oschersleben. It looks like a nicer layout than HHR. With the elevation changes it is kind of like a cross of HHR with NS.
__________________
Porsche, there is no substitute. Well except RS Tuning and Manthey.
lakatu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2005, 05:29 AM   #28
nthfinity
Regular User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Detroit
Posts: 9,929
Default

thankyou St-A for the video... i too wish i could understand more then just a few words in german, but as lakatu said, the video speaks volumes just watching it go around the track... just an amazing car that really looks quite home at the track.

looking at the diagram, im suprised how similar the track times, and cornering speeds are to the CSL vs. the GT3 RS... the Porsche seems more the track friendly car in almost every way...

i do know that the CSL has a very soft compound tire that cannot be driven very safely in wet situations, and even has a warning when bought. does the GT3 RS have a similar tire, or is it a more everyday use compound?

lakatu, from what i have read in some auto magazine, Ruf imports the GT3 RS to the US... aside from a costom interior, and exterior color.... etc. all other GT3 RS artifacts appear to be in the Ruf 'conversion'
http://www.rufautocentre.com/conversions/GT3.asp
that one is to convert at 'normal' gt3
http://www.rufautocentre.com/newcars/RUF_RGT.asp
this appears to be a new one, and fully RS... i think
so, to say, if you had the funds, and you really wanted the gt3 in the us, that is the best way to get it 8)
__________________
www.nthimage.com
Car photography website
nthfinity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2005, 05:43 AM   #29
dingo
Regular User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 6,395
Default

I have finally found some time to watch it - and thanks again st-anger, a very interesting video and as lakatu said one of the best on this car I could understand the majority of what was said (though my (Swiss)German is getting worse by the day) so thats good news
BTW, just out of curiosity which colour combo do you prefer for the GT3 RS st-anger?
__________________
dingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2005, 12:44 PM   #30
lakatu
Regular User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 408
Default

Thanks nthfinity for the info concerning Ruf. They always seem to help out the U.S. customer when Porsche occasionally forgets about us. I’m especially referring to the 930. The RGT doesn’t seem to be a true RS conversion though .

The GT3 RS runs on Pirelli P Zero Corsa tires which while have an aggressive tread i.e. fewer groves to expel water, they aren’t considered semi-racing slicks like the tires on the CSL which are Michelin Pilot Sport Cup. I believe that the RS would be significantly faster with semi slicks.

Somebody correct me if I m wrong but I interrupted the chart of the track with lap times to be a comparison of a standard GT3 and not the RS to a CSL. I think that the RS would be faster than the CSL on a tight track like Oschersleben. If you compare the SA results of the CSL to the RS on HHR which is definitely a tight track the RS came in at 1.11,8 vs 1.13,5 for the CSL. The RS was 2-3 km/hr faster in the turns than the CSL. The track temperature was 34 degrees Celsius for the CSL and 17 degrees for the GT3 RS. 34 degrees is pretty hot, so I don’t know how this affected the CSL’s time. I do know that SA mentioned that the 997 would have been faster around HHR if the temperature wasn’t so hot and the temperature for the 997 test was 30 degrees Celsius.

Dingo22 I don’t mean to speak for st-anger here but I know that like most people he prefers the red color scheme on the GT3 RS.
__________________
Porsche, there is no substitute. Well except RS Tuning and Manthey.
lakatu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump