motor

TNT · 03-14-2006, 09:30 PM

Auto Design Challenge: 250 MPG Equals $25 Million From the X Foundation

Date posted: 03-14-2006

LOS ANGELES — The foundation behind the first private manned space flight is turning its attention to the car industry's final frontier: fuel economy.

The California-based X Prize Foundation is offering a $25-million award for the first mass-produced vehicle that offers a quantum jump in fuel-efficiency. It's still working out the final rules, but the foundation plans to offer a prize to any group that sells 10,000 vehicles capable of 250 mpg.

Mark Goodstein, executive director of the foundation's automobile prize, said the rules were still being worked out, especially those about how to measure consumption. He said two assumptions were being made: "One is that the technology exists today to give us an order of magnitude improvement in efficiency, however you measure it. The second is that the prize ought to be defined by the market."

Among previous vehicles that hit the fuel-efficiency target was a 2002 Volkswagen experimental vehicle that reached 264 mpg, thanks to a one-cylinder diesel engine. Goodstein, an Internet entrepreneur, said the foundation was close to signing a sponsor that would provide the prize money. Goodstein said there could be other rewards for the winning team, such as investment from venture capital firms or manufacturing contracts.

What this means to you: Encouraging massively fuel-efficient cars is a better way to spend $25 million than providing "space tourism" for a handful of super-rich space cadets.

RC45 · 03-14-2006, 10:27 PM

Pretty stupid idea I think. If you are going to spend all the R&D needed to get gasoline/diesle engines down to 250mpg, why not simply pusrue a cheaper fuel source?

Think about it... if cars could go 250mpg, then there would be no profit in selling fuel, as you would sell so little, manufacturers may just stop refining and selling gasoline/diesel... then where would you be with your 250mpg car?

Max Power · 03-14-2006, 10:44 PM

y not just use a bicycle.....that's uses no gas....or I not use a scooter, or pogo stick....prolly equal in performance to the 250 mgp car......

TNT · 03-14-2006, 11:03 PM

I don't know if they are saying it can't be a hybrid or a lean burn or a displacement on demand... They just said 250mpg (as of now). but i am sure it will be Honda, Toyota, and Ford as the front runners. Then maybe GM and VW/Audi with diesel power. But i think the purpose is more or less for aidding in the advancment of hybrids then anything else.

nthfinity · 03-15-2006, 01:09 AM

^^^^^^
at this time, i would definately not say Ford

GM has some of the best powertrains in the world... Ford has some good blocks, definately... but they are only fuel efficiant when concidering endurance racing... not road cars.

can i make a radio-flyer wagon powered by a little diesle 10,000 times, and win the 25 million?

we already have the chassis design...so out goes the cost of developing an in house chassis... only the sprockets for driving the rear wheels, and the 55 speed bycicle transmission

i bet i could get 500 mpg with it if i make an aero-kit for it... mabey even more...

so... tally up costs id estimage about 7 million in parts (most in the body work), 200,000 for the production line, 12,000 for the wherehouse facilities for a year, and 2 million for employees...
so id have a small buisness loan of 10 million to play it safe, then im 15 in the black when its all said and done

then id buy a H1, F50, FGT, CGT, a nice yacht, and other things that pollute the world, yea me

dutchmasterflex · 03-15-2006, 11:17 AM

This is a good idea.. shows that some people are gonna make a big effort to change the way we commute..

Like the Space X-Prize contest, this will bring new cheaper technology into play with car manufacturers. What this contest really does is inspire engineers.

RC45 · 03-15-2006, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by dutchmasterflex

This is a good idea.. shows that some people are gonna make a big effort to change the way we commute..

Like the Space X-Prize contest, this will bring new cheaper technology into play with car manufacturers. What this contest really does is inspire engineers.

I disagree...

The Space-X project did nothing. The real contributions come from military R&D where there is no cost cap and absurd concepts are brought to reality.

This mickey-mouse project will be nothing but a diversion.

The US Military (and others) have been working on alternative power methods for vehicles for decades - in fact all the progress Toyota, Ford, GM and Honda have made has been based on technology declassified and invented for US military uses.

Light weight batteries, hybrid components and combinations etc.

This competition is pure PR.

$25 Million - do you realise how small that aount is in regard to vehicle produciton or even sales?

25 000 000 / 25 000 = 1000 -- $25 milllion is the sales value of 1000 Honda's or Toyota's.

The amount of money you would need to spend to invent and the next "mass produced" fuel effiecient vehicle is far more than the $25 million prize.. so why bother?

If the prize was $1 Billion - then maybe it would be worth the investment

dutchmasterflex · 03-15-2006, 12:58 PM

You can do anything with an unlimited amount of money. It gets real tricky when you have a limited supply..

RC45 · 03-15-2006, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by dutchmasterflex

You can do anything with an unlimited amount of money. It gets real tricky when you have a limited supply..

But who cares?

The point is that it does take near unlimited money to produce something from nothing

Besides which, the winners of the $25 million will be an offering from Toyota or Honda etc that would have cost WAAAAAY more than the $25 million to develop.. so again it's just a PR excercise.

Didn't the hydroegn BMW 7 series cost millions to produce?

dutchmasterflex · 03-15-2006, 01:36 PM

And how much do you think NASA's space shuttle program cost to develop?

The outcome will be very different from a manufacture with an endless supply of R&D money..

Bottom line is, from an engineering point of view, its a great exercise/contest..

Just like the Buggati Veyron, not very practical overall, but is an engineering masterpiece.. and I'm not saying something amazing will come from this contest, but it definitely does not hurt the movement towards more economical automobiles.

TransAm · 03-15-2006, 02:52 PM

In military R&D terms, $25m buys you an initial concept study and that's about it!!

TNT · 03-15-2006, 04:06 PM

I think most of you are missing the goal, IMO the base for the reward it to push hybrid and alt. fuel tech. Who says it can't be a hybrid with lean burn on E85 fuel and have displacement on damand from a three banger?

I mean its more of being creative then making money. And what about helping hybrids become more main stream.....

RC45 · 03-15-2006, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by SWT

I think most of you are missing the goal, IMO the base for the reward it to push hybrid and alt. fuel tech. Who says it can't be a hybrid with lean burn on E85 fuel and have displacement on damand from a three banger?

I mean its more of being creative then making money. And what about helping hybrids become more main stream.....

ANd there in lies why its a stupid PR gimmick.

At this level it IS about money.

And $24 million for developing a 250mpg car is not worth the effort.

Much like the Space-X thing wasn't worth the effort

coombsie66 · 03-15-2006, 05:41 PM

Just to put this into perspective a second, how much money did toyota pour into the prius?? now efficiency wise that set up is only as efficient as ANY diesel on the market, yet i dont see all these freebee no congestion charging in london for diesels no? Its all gymics, nothing 'hybrid' works well enough at present, the only reason people buy them is because they think they are being 'green' well if they had a clue they could have been just as green and saved themselfs a packet, plus got a car that wasnt the ugliest ever produced!
Jesus the Gullwing Mercedes of whenever the hell it was had direct injection petrol engine, that technology has been around for that long, and its only found its way into a handfull of production cars, lean burn petrols have been developed for years, but still not to a market level.
Does anyone really think that this is going to make the slightest bit of difference to 'engineerng developments?!' It doenst inspire engineers.
No one knows whats really been going on and is going on in development engines around the world, and i can tell you that it totals a hell of a lot more than $25 mill...

RC45 · 03-15-2006, 05:44 PM