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Old 08-03-2006, 11:10 AM   #31
Retro11s
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Originally Posted by Vansquish
Mr. Losee is the gent who has been "long-term testing" his car for Road and Track. I feel really bad for him, as he's obviously a real petrolhead and loves to drive his cars. The Enzo that he crashed had run up something like 20,000 miles since he purchased it, and it was the unique Enzo with a second set of "targa" doors.

First report date: 7/03
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....&page_number=1

Second report date: 7/04
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=1370

Third report date: 11/05
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=2875
Quick scan from the September 2006 Road & Track:

http://img148.imagevenue.com/img.php...Enzo_317lo.jpg
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:29 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by RAMMIUS
I would like to see all those fucking dumb americans have an accident at that speed in their beloved Vette`s

It would be nice to see the outcome

Now all of a sudden every piece of shit american it`s an expert in supercar chassis and suspension setup :alienflip:
I'm too busy to get into this discussion, but I do want to comment on your remarks. All I ask is to please stop with the generalizations. If you have a problem with what an individual or group of Americans has said, keep your issue with that group or individual.
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:33 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by RC45
Originally Posted by saadie
another boy with alot of money trying to be a racing driver :roll:
good to know hes alive
Why would you say that?

Why?
well .. i dont know ...
the driving attitude changes depending on the car you are driving ...
and ... most of the rich people have no driving skills at all ....

nad yeah .. i have no idea who thet guy is or anything .. but yeah .. thats the first impression you get .... :roll:
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:49 AM   #34
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This guy is an automotive critic. I would assume he knows how to drive cars quickly, seeing as such a skill is necessary. Automotive critics that aren't Jeremy Clarkson also tend not to be rich.

In any case, it does seem likely that it was beyond the driver's control. It also does seem likely that an Enzo claterring along at high speeds can become airborne as the suspension can't soak up the bumpiness.
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:53 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by saadie
Originally Posted by RC45
Originally Posted by saadie
another boy with alot of money trying to be a racing driver :roll:
good to know hes alive
Why would you say that?

Why?
well .. i dont know ...
the driving attitude changes depending on the car you are driving ...
and ... most of the rich people have no driving skills at all ....

nad yeah .. i have no idea who thet guy is or anything .. but yeah .. thats the first impression you get .... :roll:
most of the rich people have no driving skills?

and somehow poor people are better?

:roll:

How about you take the time to consider that driver skill has little to do with wealth or station in life, but rather talent, practice and the person.

It is also probable that with 30,000+ mile in the Enzo that Mr Losee is the most skilled and experienced Enzo driver in the world.

If anyone ahs had the time to "push the envelope" in an Enzo on a daily basis on regular roads, thsi gent would be the one.
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Old 08-03-2006, 12:03 PM   #36
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i never said poor people are better .. lol ..
you are right about the last part ....
when i read the news .. it kinda seemed like the guy has a chauffeur ...
but anyway ... these is no point in arguing ...
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Old 08-03-2006, 01:01 PM   #37
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I'm fed up with the stupid responses everytime an exotic is crashed. Sure there will be some of them caused by stupid behavior from posers, but all too often it's not.

Let's not be so judgemental when you don't know exactly what happened :roll:

...and Rammius, you're a fucking moron...
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Old 08-03-2006, 01:23 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by nthfinity
Originally Posted by dingo
Originally Posted by nthfinity

this lead me to think there is a problem with the car on public roads.
any indication of what type of speed he was doing before this crash?

I've been in a couple of Ferraris at high-speeds (~300kmh) on bumpy public roads and they seemed to handle it very well, there was never any nervous moments that I recall.

It could well be a problem relating only to the Enzo.....suprising given its meant to be their top car.
nearly 200 mph

i'm not saying this of all ferrari's.

but if you remember such tech as 'the suspension firms up when..." which is definately good for a race track. In fact, with a ground effect car, a stiffer suspension actually makes the car faster on a track by keeping the airflow more controlled, and evenly flat across the surface.

But, without a wing on the back that couldn't keep the car on the road through high side air control too.

Say... for example, with a ground effect car, you hit a bump, and it changes the angle of incidence; all the ground effect suddenly becomes lift...

so, where normally for race conditions, a stiff suspension is ideal.... but for the road, softer suspension would be needed to soak up the bumps, rather then react to them.

also, remember that above 180, the Enzo switches its aerodynamic profile from high downforce, to low downforce...
I'm still not entirely sure that the accident was "Ferrari's fault". Yes, above 180 the aero-profile is switched to a low downforce mode, but it still produces quite a bit of downforce even in that setup. If I had to guess, like some of the others have pointed out, the accident occurred after hitting a bump in the road. Depending on how large the bump was, any car with a flat undertray and venturis could have gone airborne at that speed. Also, if the bump was large enough, it could've actually impacted the the nose section of the car as the suspension probably would not have been quick enough to do anything about it at near 200mph. If that happened, then much of the downforce that was being produced could've been completely lost in which case, the car would've turned into a rather large airplane wing and the rear end would've gone very light. Ah well, this is all speculation and there's really no reason for it. It's sad to see that another Enzo is dead, but I'm glad that Mr. Losee looks like he'll pull through and I imagine that he'll probably be back in the market for another super supercar after this (assuming he's not afraid to buy one), and I'm really glad to see that at least one person used his Enzo like it should've been used, every day.
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Old 08-03-2006, 01:23 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by RAMMIUS
STFU
Originally Posted by RAMMIUS also
No , fuck you , you pathethic dipshit :alienflip:
Originally Posted by RAMMIUS then
all those fucking dumb americans have an accident at that speed in their beloved Vette`s

...

every piece of shit american
Quit the swearing - it's not big, and it's not clever. I can't believe how you react to others calling you up on your own mistakes/generalisations.

You deal out too much and can't take it back :roll:
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Old 08-03-2006, 01:47 PM   #40
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Sad to hear about this. Richard Lossee is easily one of the coolest Enzo owners ever-one of the few that really uses their cars. There was an article on his Enzo in the current R&T issue where he took his car up to 200mph. So it is clear with 30,000 miles on the clock and high speed runs too he has a lot of experience driving this car. So there is no need to doubt his driving ability or the knowledge of his car at speed.

About the incident I would wait to see if he mentions what really happened - was it a driver error or sudden loss of aero grip as a result of getting briefly airborne. It doesnt take much for the aero forces that hold you down to flip you over if the car's attitude is changed.There were some crashes in the past with bumps being one of the catalysts.

Driving 200 mph on public roads is a dangerous exercise anyway and with aero driven emphasis to supercar design this could happen to other supercars as well.

As for the discussion regarding testing the cars at a bumpy Nurburgring over smooth Fiorano ... I would agree to some extent that this would help. But note that Fiorano is not the only place that Ferrari cars are tested at. Drivers take the cars on the surrounding roads in Modena for testing suspension and other elements. You may have seen spy pics of Fcars with "Prova" (Prototype) plates. 200mph testing on public roads seem like a difficult prospect to arrange though. I doubt anyone does it - Porsche, Ferrari, etc

Nurburgring while a technically challenging track for sure is not a very high speed track. Road cars do not hit 200 mph for sustained levels there. The CGT for instance hit 182 mph in the fastest section which is mostly flat with a bit of a rise in the middle. The rest of the circuit has speeds averaging a lot lower. So maybe you can figure out if a car does well at say 150mph or so thru the bumps and all but you still wont know how it does at 210, 220 or whatever under these circumstances. The car may behave quite differently.

Perhaps Indianapolis, Spa or Monza might enable the cars to attain higher speeds but the surface would be smooth.
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Old 08-03-2006, 02:15 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by RAMMIUS
I would like to see all those fucking dumb americans have an accident at that speed in their beloved Vette`s

It would be nice to see the outcome

Now all of a sudden every piece of shit american it`s an expert in supercar chassis and suspension setup :alienflip:
What kind of cars are made in Romania?

I like Vettes and Ferraris, what I dont like are ignorant assholes that are so blinded by prejudice that they could make a comment like that. In the future, if you feel like posting the shit you just pulled out of your diaper, do us all a favor and dont.

As for the Enzo, sucks to see another one bite the dust but at least the driver is ok. Hopefully next time they run this event they will scope out a better stretch of road if thats what truly caused the problem. There must have been a lot of other high end cars out there though, I wonder if anyone else experienced a similar problem.
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Old 08-03-2006, 03:00 PM   #42
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I remeber reading Richards reports in Road and Track... its sad to hear he crashed his baby, but I am glad to know that he is going to pull thru to drive another day 8)
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Old 08-03-2006, 03:43 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by sameerrao
Driving 200 mph on public roads is a dangerous exercise anyway and with aero driven emphasis to supercar design this could happen to other supercars as well.
In some cars, no more or less dangerous than 100mph


Originally Posted by sameerrao
As for the discussion regarding testing the cars at a bumpy Nurburgring over smooth Fiorano ... I would agree to some extent that this would help. But note that Fiorano is not the only place that Ferrari cars are tested at. Drivers take the cars on the surrounding roads in Modena for testing suspension and other elements. You may have seen spy pics of Fcars with "Prova" (Prototype) plates. 200mph testing on public roads seem like a difficult prospect to arrange though. I doubt anyone does it - Porsche, Ferrari, etc
I understand Porsche often takes their cars out onto the autobahns for high speed blasts. We know Ruf does for sure - as do AMG and Alpina etc.

Originally Posted by sameerrao
Nurburgring while a technically challenging track for sure is not a very high speed track. Road cars do not hit 200 mph for sustained levels there. The CGT for instance hit 182 mph in the fastest section which is mostly flat with a bit of a rise in the middle.
The point is htouhg, that the "flat" sections of the 'Ring are still quite uneven, and at speed for a sustained distance, 100 or 200m travelling over ordinary bumps or undulations, can invoke an oscialting behaviour from the suspension that if not specifically tuned for, can cause stability problems.

You have run out on the b-roads in our area, and know how a 20mph speed difference can change a series of innocent dips into scary suspension upsetting bumps.

Now we are speculating as to the exact circumstance, but we have at least 2 other high speed wrecks involving an Enzo and a straight seciton of road and innocent looking undualtions that as speed can bite if a car is too stiffly suspended.

The 3rd car in Houston involved speeds in the mid 100's and a slight crown change on a bend that could account for the loss of rear stability (althouhg there is the rumour of have all aids turned off - but as the driver admitted to not even like track driving its odd to imagine he would turn off aids on a narrow city street)

Originally Posted by sameerrao
The rest of the circuit has speeds averaging a lot lower. So maybe you can figure out if a car does well at say 150mph or so thru the bumps and all but you still wont know how it does at 210, 220 or whatever under these circumstances. The car may behave quite differently.
This is true to a certain extent, but there is simply no excuse for the Enzo to not have been tested in all situations - as the Enzo in particular has the ability to still be accelerating quickly at very high speeds - meaning that the chance of a Enzo seeing those speeds on the road is very good.

This is the reason the FXX is not a road car - it could just not be used on anythign but an f1 track - it seems that single purpose in mind.
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Old 08-03-2006, 04:45 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by nthfinity
Originally Posted by bmagni
Originally Posted by nthfinity
From the horses mouth - Richard was going close to 200mph, and hit a bump in the road that sent him airborne. The car rolled 7 times and was flat as a pancake. Fortunetly he was wearing a helmet. He has cracked vertebrae in his neck and back, 4 broken ribs, broken sternum, some broken fingers, and the only surgery he made need is on his thumb. Nothing life threatening. He is refusing pain medication because he thinks he needs to be punished!p
not a car to hit any bumps in, for sure.... but what an amazing safety cage!
lucky him, some months ago, same thing happened in a Mexican Highway (Mexico-Acapulco) to some guys travelling like @ 170 kph in a 360 and both died...
I was reading that the 360 has a very faulty design, where at high speed incidents, the cabin splits wide open.... which only happened to the enzo in Italy...

it makes me think that perhaps the F cars are just too stiff to run at speed on regular roads
well for instance the bump the 360 hit actually makes any car loose control, ive been a few times on that situation at 80-120 kph and hit my head againts the car roof, hard, those are the bumps I'm talking about...

On the other side at 150 kph + any minimal bump becomes dangerous, if we look back on Steffan's Enzo, the slope where he lost control can cause any car going 160 mph jump and then loose control, then this other one which was going 200 mph +, the italian which lost control after going off-road, and the korean which I donīt know what happened to...

Theres a difference between uneven roads, and a bump that makes you loose control...
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Old 08-03-2006, 04:53 PM   #45
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i can't believe that idiot from romania. why the bad feelings about all americans? i have no ill will toward you. show some respect.

we should all be thankful that Mr. Losse is still alive. he really is one the most out going supercar owners. and i wish him a speedy recovery.
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