which is better Vtec or non Vtec

[gobs3z]

Just so you know guys, buddyclub makes the only exhuast(not including headers)where you'll actually feel a difference. Many trials and errors. A friend of mine has 1 of 5(not sure of that #) type r 1.6L 12 second NA hatches. And you guys are informing him to put really expensive parts on his car, just remember expensive isn't always the best. But those are good parts, and do a lot of h/w before anything and if you want info from my friend who is the V-tec king in the area just give me message. Goodluck.

[Evo]

adamk24, nice write up their.. I have to admit I'm a noobe in Honda.. and you probebly knew that hehehe...

You said you ran a B20 on a B16 head.. is the B20 block from a honda CR-V.. If not then I hear that they do the same thing with the the CR-V engine.. They take the engine and put a b16 or a b18 not sure head .. It revs a bit less but gives a lot more tourque at low end..

[chronodyne28]

www.honda-tech.com

[badar1985]

thanks alot guys for the info u gave. the big problem that i am facing is that i am living in kuwait where there arent alot of places where i can go to buy parts. so i have to do this all by myself. the other thing is that here in kuwait it gets to 50 degrees celuis outside in the day and around 40 at night. this is in the summer time. so my main concern is overheating. I already own a 2001 camry so i dont think that i would do alot of day driving in the del sol. Im gonna go with adamk24 advice and try to find a good b18 engine. i wanted to go with the b16 becuz i already have it. but i was wondering if i install must of the parts mentioned here what times will i be running in 1/4 mile? the hp i have in mind is around 250 - 300 but i think that its gonna be hard to pull that off with a all motor car thats y i asked which would be better a turbo or supercharger. so what im thinking about is rebuilting a b18 with some modifation. changing the pistons and rods cam gears etc then i wanna try it out. if it needs more power then i need fored induction. but like i said before the main problem is heat. so im gonna try all motor first then i gonna go with a turbo or a super. whiich ever makes less heat

[Evo]

Originally Posted by badar1985 thanks alot guys for the info u gave. the big problem that i am facing is that i am living in kuwait where there arent alot of places where i can go to buy parts. so i have to do this all by myself. the other thing is that here in kuwait it gets to 50 degrees celuis outside in the day and around 40 at night. this is in the summer time. so my main concern is overheating. I already own a 2001 camry so i dont think that i would do alot of day driving in the del sol. Im gonna go with adamk24 advice and try to find a good b18 engine. i wanted to go with the b16 becuz i already have it. but i was wondering if i install must of the parts mentioned here what times will i be running in 1/4 mile? the hp i have in mind is around 250 - 300 but i think that its gonna be hard to pull that off with a all motor car thats y i asked which would be better a turbo or supercharger. so what im thinking about is rebuilting a b18 with some modifation. changing the pistons and rods cam gears etc then i wanna try it out. if it needs more power then i need fored induction. but like i said before the main problem is heat. so im gonna try all motor first then i gonna go with a turbo or a super. whiich ever makes less heat

You can't do that sorry..

If what your saying you will rebuild your car to the max in a N/A by changing the internals then you can't jump into turbo charge .. bacause I think the pistons which are made for the N/A are not ment to be pushed even further by a turbo so they will melt down for sure.. You have to decide before you buy anything if your going to turbo charge it or go N/A all the way..

By the way a friend of mine got a Civic with a B18C ( integra GSR motor ) internal modifications and he said he got close to 13 sec in quarter mile which is pretty good for a 1.8l engine

And I know Q8 temp in summer.. So you better get a seriously big and a very good quality radiator ..

[gobs3z]

NA pistons are high compression, and you can pop a turbo on it but don't push the psi. If you want big power you and a turbo then you need low compressiong pistons. Is this your everyday car? If it is then keep it NA, less problems that deal with having a lot of torque especially changing your clutch from slippage due to torque.

[Mopsdrops]

Good thing you've taken a VTEC, much faster, to give you an example:

Prelude 2.2i VTEC = 7.2 seconds to 100 kph
Prelude 2.3i = 7.7 seconds to 100 kph

The VTEC wins easy, and has even a 100 cc less.

CRX with 1.6i VTEC: 7.2 to 100 kph
CRX 1.6i without VTEC: 8.5 to 100 kph

[adamk24]

Thank you for the information about what specific goals you have badar1985, it will greatly help us let you know what you should do. So, let me just ask a few more questions to clear some things up.
First you say you already have a b16? If this is the case, then I would say to just go with that engine. However, if you are looking for an all new engine to swap in, here is what I would recommend.
Vtec is not just about power. For me, the best part is the sound. I love the explosion of sound that comes from the intake trackt when it goes onto the power cam. However, with the power figures that you are thinking of, you will need forced induction. Vtec and turbos go together like sheep and rednecks but for your application (hot weather, reliable power) I would say go the LS route.
So the engine I am suggesting is the Integra LS B18, or more specifically the 1992-93 B18A1 (140hp) and 1994-00 B18B1 (142hp). They come with a more turbo friendly 9.3:1 compression, compared to a Vtec series 10.2 or higher. Also they because they are 1.8 liters compaired to a B16's 1.6, they make more power and more torque with turbo setups. Well that is to say, they respond better to boost if you dont count the Vtec on a B16. Basically this engine will give reliable, torquey power up to 280 WHP, beyond that you will need internals, axles and kevlar timing belts. Some people will try and tell you that you dont need Kevlar belts and axles, but I laugh at them when they get a boost spike on a down shift and snap an axle or break a timing belt and reform the valves into shapes that you would not want (unless you like abstract art, then go ahead.)
But what it all really comes down to is price. And heres the beauty part. For around $4000, according to the price search I did, You can get the Following.
-1997 Integra GS engine with tranny, ECU and all required wiring. (everything needed for swap)
-2 reshaped B series motor mounts (the other 2 stock units will work)
-Kevlar timing belt
-Hasport 400hp Axles
-Exeddy stage 2 clutch (organic sprung hub 6 puc. I highly recommend this, as it is perfectly streetable and holds great up to 320 hp. Seriously this is the clutch you want, even if you think you want something stronger)
-58 Series t3/t4 hybrid Turbo (one of my fav. hybrids because its exaust housing is small to match the 1.8 of an LS for good spool, yet the Compressor flows enough to make more power than the housing flow charicteristics can handle. Combines to make a fast spool hard hitting turbo with lots of cool, street useable boost.)
-Custom Exaust work (this part will varry alot so I just said $550 for all of it, Basically I included a Manifold, downpipe and Cat back 3" piping.)
-Frount Mount Intercooler ( http://www.johnnyracecar.com/ I have used his intercoolers twice in the past and they are seriously the best intercoolers I have ever seen for the money. And they fit perfect for most applications, especially hondas Also smaller, vented fins means more air for the radiator gets through, which is a good thing if you live in a hot place like phoenix (where I live now) or Kw8)
-Fuel system (pressure regulator, injectors and fuel pump. The brands are un-important as long as they work, just price shop to find the best deal)
-Intercooler piping (again this will require some custom work, but with $250 you can get a good welder to make you some alluminium pipes that look great and flow even better)
-BOV (everyone is allowed one ricer mod, and for me its the HKS SSQ BOV. Its very expensive, ushally chrome and actually performs pretty badily compared to most other blow off valves. But my god it just sounds so fucking cool )
- Boost controller. (I just went with a basic manual boost controller from Hallman. However, for neat electronic tricks (and about $300 more) you can have a very nice Greddy Profec.B. that will work as a turbo timer, a boost gauge, and a Boost controller.
-Apexi S-AFC ( Great for A/F controll, as well as spark timing and some other great engine management features. I stand by the Originall Statement, this is the cheapest engine controll module you can buy. Sure its not really an ECU, but Id be damned if you can do just as much as an aftermarket ECU with it)
-24 pack of Dr. Pepper (hey, Engine builders gotta drink right?)

Im sure there is something Im forgetting, but thats basically all you will need for 250-270 WHP with a B18 turbo. Infact now that Im saying that, here is one more unit that you will for sure want.
:::::this unit was not originally included in cost estimate:::::
-Koyo Alluminium Radiator. (absolutely the best radiator you can fit in a Del Sol, the engine will wonder how you moved from Kw8 to Alaska so fast.)
If you want more power, which is possible however a little extreme as this setup should be enough to run mid or low 12's or better with good traction, you will need new internals which will run you about $800 for pistons rods and journals. Also here a little tid bit most people wont tell you, only causing you to blow your new pistons on detonation. If you want to run more than 260 HP with an LS engine, you should install the GSR oil squirters that spray oil on the bottom of the pistons. It helps keep the piston cooler and keeps the little carbon spikes on the top from getting so hot they cause detonation and turn your shiney expensive stuff into shiney expensive stuff that needs to be replaced.

And before I start a new post, why go turbo? Because supercharging means one of two things. 1) Roots type, which = low power, huge heat intake. And that just wont do. 2)Centrifugal type, which = Low power at low RPM, Good power at High RPM, Very cool intake charge with Air to Liquid charge cooler, and a very pretty engine bay.... and about $8000 for 240 whp..... for just the kit... not including the other stuff you will need, like the engine, or the radiator or anything

Also, to EVO, yes the B20 I was refering to comes from the CRV (the head swap you I was refering to is also called CRVTEC.... a very clever name )

[adamk24]

Just a few more things about what your choices are if you want to go really fast, very cheaply and very reliably in a honda. First off your choice of tires is very important, so I'd like to take this time to just express my opinion on the Second most important mod you do to your car.

FALKEN AZENIS SPORT RT-215's!!!!! sorry for shouting but I am simply in love with these tires. First they have sidewalls built for road racing, a tread pattern that is actually fairly good in the wet, as well as being absolutely great for road racing (because the larger progressive tread blocks near the outside help corner grip alot), the tread compound is almost R compound in softness, yet somehow manages a treadwear rating of 200 compared to most R comp's 60-80. Some say they wear out fast, but Im not going to talk about that, it doesnt matter. Why? because at $48 per 195/50R14, you can replace them every 10 months and still pay less than those POS ricer tires that look cool but grip like shit and cost 4-5 times as much.
Honestly, I have bought alot of tires in my rather short life experience with racing, and this is the only car product I have ever found that absolutely blows everything else in the market away. I cant even think of one tire to compare them to, they just own everything else in so many ways. So basically this is the tire you want, and if not take this time to hate yourself.

Ok, as far as choosing turbos, its such a complicated art, I really dont have time (Ok so maybe I do have the time, but how bout Im just to lazy...) to explain it all, or even touch the tip, but heres just what I suggest. For cheap kits, its hard to beat a properly built t3/t4 because they are so easy to get in just the right trim and housings for any application. But if price is not as much of a consern as having alot of fun, then its hard to beat a good ball bearing turbo.

If you have $1200 or more to drop on turbo, then the one you want for your 1.6-2.2 liter engine is a Garrett GT28RS turbo otherwise known as a Disco Potato turbo. Why is this the turbo to have? How does 315 Hp @ 17 psi sound? not that Impressive? Well than how about all 17 psi at 2050 rpm on a B18B1? If that didnt make you wet your pants, this will. The T3/T4 I recommended in the last post wont make that much boost untill about 4100 RPM on the same engine. Do the math, thats the same boost at 1/2 the RPM. Basically you will make easy streetpower in any rpm and at time not in 2 seconds, not in a second, but RIGHT NOW. No waiting, no turbo lag, just glance over at the idiot in the accord w/ exaust and show him your tail lights like you were being pushed by a steam catapult.
Sport Compact Car used this turbo on their project silvia with stunning results and it is the same turbo Edelbrock puts in their truely excellent Honda turbo kits. Basically if you can afford to play at this level, you will never regret it.

Another thing to think about is external wastegates. They will help keep down your intake temps (some will argue this but trust me it does. Its just simple physics. Backpressure = more work for the turbo to push the same amount of air. More work = more heat. More heat = :cry: ) By reducing the backpressure of an internal wastegate you can make it easier for the turbo to push air. This means, faster spool, better top end power, cooler intake temps and a generally happy engine. Other benifits of External wastegates are the more precice boost controll of the spring and hub diaphrams they use, and (for the truely geeky) it allows road racers, or anyone who does any prolonged On boost driving (ushally only at full throttle) which is when the wastegate is redirecting gasses around the turbine wheel, it keeps the hot exhaust gas out of the turbo completely, which makes it run cooler, which increases the life of the turbo, keeps the Compressor side cooler (intake temps again) and helps resist against damage to the turbo caused by lean conditions leading to hot gasses and melted parts. Plust it looks wicked!

A VTEC head swap is always an option but I would say money would be better spent on turbo components. However a good set of cams in your B18a/b will make about as much power with a turbo as a VTEC swap,it just it wont as driveable, unless you use a rather mild cam in the LS head, which is kinda pointless. But I really dont see the need for any of that under these power levels, unless you think your top end needs some help. Some mild head porting will help add alot of power though, and can be done at home with a Die grinder.

Another Benifit of the B18 LS is its turbo freindly gearing. It has rather tall stock gearing that when doubling the power with a turbo means gearing that is just about perfect. With VTEC trannies (which are also notrously weak) they are already geared so closely to stay in VTEC when racing, they just burn the tires non stop with turbos, they really really really get poor traction. This factor alone makes me recomend LS trannies to any VTEC turbo owner.

Also a limited slip is a good idea. Kaaz is a personal favorite, but Quaif (spelling?) also makes great Mechanicall diffs. Dont use clutch slips, they suck for this application. Get a good worm or splinned gear limited slip. Both are called mechanical LSD's. Phantom Grip locking diffs also work good, but I have my doubts about them. I have one in my civic right now, and it does not feel "as good or better than any LSD" as they claim, but it does keep my inside tire from breaking lose in the twisties and I lay twin stripes so.... good enough.

Nitrous..... hahahah :fistI got a pm asking me why I said this, and I would just like to say that on a properly build turbo engine there is little or no need for nitrous. On its own, it is very good, but for the purposses of this discussion, dont bother)

External Oil Cooler. In hot temps with turbo cars this is a very very very good idea. (or was it a really really really good idea... I forget...) Basically you can pick them up pretty cheap, Under $200 and it will save you the hassle of more work later. Also if your springing for an expensive turbo, this is a must. Think of it as cheap protection against a bad day.

I'll think of more stuff to ramble on about later, but just try and absorb for now. I've actually rather impressed myself with some of the info I've supplied. (wish someone could have told me this stuff 2 or 3 years ago.... would have saved me alot of time and money ) so really think about what I've said. At the same time, dont take what I say as the gospel truth. This is only my experiences, and it certainly isnt the best route out there. This is just my recommendations based on my knowledge at this time and what information I have available to me (google/ebay) So do your own research before under going any major project. And have fun at it too, or else its kinda pointless eh?

[Evo]

I vote to name adamk24 as the honda expert

[badar1985]

Originally Posted by Evo I vote to name adamk24 as the honda expert

i second that vote. adamk24 u have giving me so much info thats gonna keep me busy for aleast a year. Thanks alot for all the research you, it must have taken you some time. Sorry if it was any trouble. When i get started ill keep all of you guys up to date. I already have about $6000 saved up so im gonna check out the things you. Im gonna try to go to the states to buy some of the things that you listed becuz i think that they are alot cheaper then here in q8. Now one more question if you guys dont mind do you think that i should stay with the del sol body or get another body like the old crx 89-92. alot of ppl i talk to say thats its better to get the old crx becuz i would save alot of wieght but i hate the way it looks. Please tell me im right which is better looking del sol or crx. I know that the crx wieghs less but it just looks so bad

p.s. im sort of new with this motor stuff, so i didnt know that i could run turbos in a na motor. but thanks for the tip

[badar1985]

http://www.onlydominican.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=293 this site shows you all of the honda engines and their power the engine that i have now is the B16A 1.6L JDM DOHC VTEC 92-95 Civic Si-R II/ 92-97 CRX DelSol SiR 170ps i also found this website that sells honda engines http://www.inlinefour.com/motors.html

[adamk24]

I have bought engines from Inline Four before, and they really are a top rate supplier. They do a good job of letting you know exactly what you are buying as well as vehicle info, milage, and pictures. However they are not a cheap as ebay but alot more trust worthy. They are not cheaper than a good japanese dealer but those are getting harder and harder to come by. As far as american dealers go, they are about as good as you will find.

For honda/acura engine info go here:

http://www.streettuners.com/curve/en...ine_specs.html

Its the most complete listing I have found so far, and its easy to navigate.

So, you have an SIR II B16, thats the same engine I recently put in my civic. I love it, but the torque of a b18 would be nice. However, If this engine you have is in good running shape, Id say just stick with it. It will work just fine. However, you will need to put lower compression pistons in it before you can add forced induction. So I would say put aside $1000 for rebuilding the engine with axles belts, rods and pistons.

I dont mind helping out at all, its no trouble its mainly just me rambling, but I'll try and find some good sites to get your parts off of, because most good shops should ship anywhere in the world. But I got one more question.

Are you planning on doing the work yourself, or will you be getting a shop to install and build the motor for you? Because labor will cost almost as much as parts for a majority of this work. Something to think about if your having a shop do the work.

Oh and del sols are way better looking than POS wedge CRX's. However, I would swap a 96+ front end onto your car, to get rid of the fog lamps, and if its got a stock wing, take it off cuz those things look like crap.

But alas, the del sol is alot heavier than the CRX. But that does not mean it cannot be fast, so I would not worry to much about it. Plus the interior on a CRX is shit compaired with a Del Sol.

[adamk24]

I vote to name adamk24 as the honda expert

i second that vote.

ops:

Evo I love your new avatar. Miss november, thats hilarious! Nice car too

i've driven several VTECs in the Integra GS-R and the S2000. i hate them. LOL

Everso, the first time I drove a VTEC series engine was my freinds totaly stock B16 delsol. I thought it was total crap. Two weeks later we put an AEM intake on itm and I instantly fell in love. The sound of the engine is so unique, so fierce and so invigorating it just makes you want to drive the hell out of it all the time.
Stock Vtec engines are not that impressive unless you consider their size, however what they do increadably well is respond to mods. The sound they make with an intake is a thing of beauty.

the winding up it takes to get it going irritates the piss out of me

Thats not how you drive a honda. They have very very close gear ratios to keep you at that magic rpm. Basically they are not made to be put in third and floored when you want to race, you have to upshift alot for street driving and if im going say.... 45 in 5th, I have to jump down to 2nd if I want to get on it. Or if Im at 55, I'd need to jump to third.

In all honesty most N/A honda engine do not make a hugely fast car without striping it of wieght, but thats not the point. Its not about going fast, or pulling the most G's or being the fastest around a track. It is just so much fun to drive, that sitting at home I just want to jump up at night at go out driving. My eclipse is much better looking, way faster, handles better and has that great turbo sound. But it just doesnt excite me like my little ol' civic does.


Maybe Im just a ricer

[badar1985]

[quote="adamk24"]

Are you planning on doing the work yourself, or will you be getting a shop to install and build the motor for you? Because labor will cost almost as much as parts for a majority of this work. Something to think about if your having a shop do the work.


hey All. The work will be done by me. My father has alot of experince with honda engines but he never upgraded one. and i have some backround i read alot of books listen to ppl and when ever i get in trouble i gonna come here to bug you guys. I do plan on getting rid of those really ba looking fog lights. i might get rid of them or place them some where else. i have a question for you guys. of all the engines that are at the in line four site which do u think is the best in terms of price and performance.

i would chose the 95 Spec JDM GSR COMPLETE CONVERSION
but im only an amatur