Japanese cars have replaced de american muscle??

[graywolf624]

1. GM has a model line hole for "sporty cars" under 30 grand, it has to fill, and can gain market share and money in if done correctly

They already own 40 some percent. How much market share do they need? Why is sporty cars under 30 grand even important. We covered that the whole sector is minimal.

2. Chevy has to get the camaro right, unlike the impala, montecarlo, and malibu, and make it a competitior with the new mustangs, and evos, and stis, or it will destroy a good nameplate and lose out in the pony cars wars. and they will have to develop a new platform or heavily modify a existing one to get that. the same ol shit is not gonna cut it.

What you fail to realize is that of those cars only the camaro really was a consistant performance car. They have no history of dropping the ball with that car. So to even worry about such a thing is ludicrous.

3. Subrau is a a Subaru, not a GM, Subaru designs, researches, and makes all the decisions with its lineups, so gm has nothing to do with it besides a stake, a wrx is a subie, not a gm

gm has influence over what gets built at subaru. GM can use subarus tech. GM gets a decent proportion of their profit margin. What does it matter how its organized. OR are we talkign about some conceptualized war in your mind that doesnt even exist?

4. Having a successful racing program raises product awareness, and image, and has proven hundreds of times to help sell cars, why else would a manufaturer invest millions in a racing program? whats ferrari and porsche famous for? racing. why do people want stis and evos besides performace? racing heritage. plain and simply, having a successful racing program helps a manufacturer sell more cars by raising brand awareness, and public image and opinion, as well as instilling pride of ownership. FACT

Jury is out. In recent years many manufacturers have begun to cut back on racing as the effect of these programs have lessened. The average american has gotten further and further away from someone who watches racing other then nascar. The link between the two is not proven. The cars that have sold best often have no racing link.

5. the Civic Si, as well as honda, has a rich racing hertitage, as good as any other manufacture, and for the price the civic si, sentra se-rs, celicas, and lancer rallisports are good "sporty" cars for the money, and some make decent entry level track cars.

You set a really low pint for what you consider sporty. Most people would disagree on all but maybe the celica.

6. GM needs to get with the times, and update its lineup, and pay more attention to the youth market, because a ton of money can be made there, and they have been pretty much ignoring it this whole time.

The camaro sold well with youth market. So did the cavalier. So does the entire new caddilac range. Grand am sold well and so did the grand prix. You jump to the conclusion that youth wants performance and yet the fact is the average one does not. GM is not struggling. In fact they are still making money in a recession. Other then toyota they are the most profitable company out there. They obviously are doing somethign right.

[PaulGT2164]

well blah, i admit the newer one are losing the original idea, but from the 80s through about 95, the civic Sis were sporty, the new ones are too heavy..but i think the civic si, 92-95 were very sporty and compitent

and greywold man, get over it im through with arguing with you, GM needs the sub 30k range cause profitable and good market to be in, and GM needs to make the camaro better than the last, or it will be a dissapointment, i dont see why you keep instigating this its simple

racing in other coutrys proves its sell cars, its just a sad fact the american public is not captivated like it once was, as soon as the stupid nascar rage dies down, and racing like le mans, and sprts car and touring gain popularity it wil make a difference...but no matter how small, racing sells cars, look at the nascar series and how it relates to montecarlo

but im done with all this, ive said what i am gonna say, take it or leave it

[graywolf624]

"well blah, i admit the newer one are losing the original idea, but from the 80s through about 95, the civic Sis were sporty, the new ones are too heavy..but i think the civic si, 92-95 were very sporty and compitent"

If I were to ignore the rest of my arguements against you and even just look at this comment I realize you missed the point(even if I disagree that 95 cars are sporty). This can't be about cars from 1995. Cars from 1995 arent sold in 2004. I can't buy a camaro new. I can used.
You can't claim honda sells a sporty car that they don't sell anymore.

[blah]

Paul those had to be the worst year for the Si, they didnt even run 16s. The only cars sporty that honda offers right now are the. Honda S2000, Acura NSX, Honda Accord Coupe (manual) And Acura TL 6 Speed.

[graywolf624]

"and greywold man, get over it im through with arguing with you, GM needs the sub 30k range cause profitable and good market to be in, and GM needs to make the camaro better than the last, or it will be a dissapointment, i dont see why you keep instigating this its simple"

Because your obviously gm bashing. They have no history of dropping the ball with the camaro. The below 30k performance range is marginal. They are doing well. What makes you think they are going to quit being profitable. You have no tech to back it up whatsoever.

Basically your trying to say gm has to have under 30k sporty car(when almost no cars currently sold under 30 k are sporty) in order to keep gaining market share. I am telling you it doesnt work that way.

[PaulGT2164]

but they were not over weight ugly bubbles either, the 92-95 chassis was alos alot more modification friendly, and its chassis was better. and in 92-95, the Si were not a bad deal, and a were, and are a good platform to work from, look at roger foos privateer scca touring car victories several years back

i am not bashing GM, i just am saying they have been ignoring current market trends and missing out, and you are still confused about sporty vs sports, sporty cars are not sport cars, i clarified this like 10 post ago

[graywolf624]

"and in 92-95, the Si were not a bad deal, and a were, and are a good platform to work from, look at roger foos privateer scca touring car victories several years back"

Good platform to work with has nothing to do with how sporty the car is from the manufacturer. I can show you a pinto that will run 9s that cost 9000 dollars. Does that mean I consider pintos a sporty car?

[graywolf624]

And no Im not confusing sporty and sports car. What your defining as a sporty car almost no one would define as such. The magazines dont define them as such. The people dont define them as such either.

The honda civic si at best is a very good reliable car with ok to decent performance for its class. It is by no means even in the lead in its price range now. It serves a purpose. Its a good car for what it does. But people shouldnt be confusing it for a sports car. In stock form its bottom of the barrel. In modded form its still going to lose to an equaly designed rwd car. Its like my camaro. You buy a car to race thats in your budget and a compromise since we all cant afford the risks to race a vette.

[PaulGT2164]

dude stop attacking me, ok, thats all you wanan do is fight and argue
the Civic Si is a SPORTY car, not a SPORTS car, it has a hihger output motor, and a stiffer tuned suspenion making it more SPORTY, its not too hard to understand

a SPORTY car is a car that is somweher between a sports car and a normal car, a car the is able to be pratical, and provide a enjoyable driving expereince

a SPORTS car is a car made for the intention of being a high performance car with maximum driver involvement and enjoyment, without the need to be too practical



the pinto was not made this way or marketed this way, so that argument does not apply

[graywolf624]

"i am not bashing GM, i just am saying they have been ignoring current market trends and missing out, and you are still confused about sporty vs sports, sporty cars are not sport cars, i clarified this like 10 post ago"

The real market trend sadly(and I hate to say this) is rice. Its not performance under 30k. ITs what looks like performance under 30k. Its what is featured on ff that is the market trend. GM got an ok share of this with the cavalier. Not as much as ford with the focus nor honda with the civic. Even this group is minimal in terms oif market share. They also care about as much about performance as I do about who won the lottery tonite.

[coloradosilver]

I agree. I saw a 92 Geo Metro with a 351 Cleveland shoehorned in that would run 9's as well. I definitly wouldn't call that sporty. It had the turning capability of a school bus.

[graywolf624]

dude stop attacking me, ok, thats all you wanan do is fight and argue the Civic Si is a SPORTY car, not a SPORTS car, it has a hihger output motor, and a stiffer tuned suspenion making it more SPORTY, its not too hard to understand the pinto was not made this way or marketed this way, so that argument does not apply:

Higher output motor and stiffer suspension compared to what? You mean the sporty version of the civic? It certainly isnt sporty as compared to its competitors.

The civic wasnt made for performance either it was made for economy. You said you have a business admin degree. That means we both know that marketing and being have no correspondance.

Im not attacking you. And I wont attack you. I havent called you an idiot.. I havent questioned your schooling. All I have said is your not right on your claims. The big market in that price range is either point a to b driver or ricer. Performance enthusiasts are a minor niche. Especially when you get to budget cars.

[PaulGT2164]

"The real market trend sadly(and I hate to say this) is rice. Its not performance under 30k. ITs what looks like performance under 30k. Its what is featured on ff that is the market trend. GM got an ok share of this with the cavalier. Not as much as ford with the focus nor honda with the civic. Even this group is minimal in terms oif market share. They also care about as much about performance as I do about who won the lottery tonite."

i dont care about the FF crowd, that has no real interest in me, and there are just as many rice cars as there are corn cars, the market for these cars may be minimal, but its highly profitable. and GM should compete in this market, for many reasons

[graywolf624]

"i dont care about the FF crowd, that has no real interest in me, and there are just as many rice cars as there are corn cars, the market for these cars may be minimal, but its highly profitable. and GM should compete in this market, for many reasons"

What is a corn car? You mean domestic rice? We just call them ricers too. I think they are all idiots. You miss that the ricers dont care about performance. They are the ones who are calling the shots in that price range. Them and the point a to b people. The performance enthusiasts are just too small a group.
Look at what things sell and it what models. That should show you whats important to our youth. The v6 mustang for instance sells 60 percent of mustang sells. It has horrible performance. Its all about looks and whats cool in that price range. Your still in the price range area where high school popularity rules.

You talk about image.. Well theres your image. It doesnt come from racing though. Its directly from fast and the furious and the like. Whether you or I like it they rule that market place if you pull out the older point a to be people.

Realize the camaro was more hardcore performance then the mustang. Harder to get in, handled better, rougher exterior. And it didn't sell well. Why, because the mustang had a hipper image. Saddly performance in the sub 30000 is no longer that important. I just hope when they get more buying power the same thing doesnt happen above 30.

That isnt to bash japanese cars or the mustang. It is to explain the market.

[coloradosilver]

I don't like that market and I don't like rice cars by any means. But you are right. If GM wants a peice of that market (and a HUGE market it is) then they're going to have to come up with some version of a ricer that can be easily modified with a body kit or small turbo. thats where all the money is these days.