motor

corvette97 · 01-18-2004, 08:30 PM

come on guys lets face all jap cars are inferior to EVERY other manufacturer
i'd rather have roller skates than a honda

sorry u are so wrong, gotta tell u this but u dont know what ur saying, ur posting shit, hondas are great cars and u can get a lor of those cars, u said that cuz' of the rice shit, i have seen a bmw and a mercedes with more problems than a honda, i am a muscle fan, but jap cars are better than the americans, more reliable, sorry bro but waht ur sayin is BS,

and also ppl here are talking shit about manufacturers and who owns what and shit, this is so stupid, this was a about THE MUSCLES AND THE JAP CARS WAR

note: i would like to see you beated ass with roller skates behind a honda

PaulGT2164 · 01-18-2004, 08:31 PM

GM only owns a 15-20% stake in subaru like was stated earlier, so GM does not hold the control over subaru, so it cants axe it, and it cannot decide where the company goes with its line up, once again, all the conclusions made in my last post are true, i dont see why you argue with me, when its obvious so ill repeat it again, so you an read it again

GM would benefit from a better sporting/racing image, GM needs a sub 30 grand sporty car line to compete in the new trends and niche markets, a Subaru is a Subaru, not a GM, and Image is important to any comapny, these are FACTS, i dont see why you are disputing them....

whats untrue about my statement? NOTHING!
its easy....i dont see why you are wastiny your time arguing it, and my time to defend it....

yeah sure toyota sales tons of cars without a sport image, but i bet if they had a sportier image they would sale more...

the Civic base is a economy car, the Civic Si is a sporty car, look at its racing heritage...and looks at the performance it delivers, just cause you dont like it, doesnt mean its not a sporty car, it has all the right attributes, it handles well in its class, it performs well in its price range, and its comfortable on a race track, and can be modified to be much more potent....plain and simple...just cause the base model is a eco car, doesnt mean all are, there are huge difference between the two. the "ricer revolution" as you so put it is not responsible for the Si, it was around alot longer that the "ricers" the Si can be a wonderful track car, and i dont even like them that much.

you wrote
"You do realize that your age group accounts for a very small proportion of the car buying public.
You also should realize that the avg car buyer cares more about reliability and nothing about racing. 90 percent have never even seen a car race beyond nascrap"

my age group is the 21-25 year old, and we buy lots of cars, you must think i am some teenager... the amount of people in the 18-21 buying cars (or parents letting them pick , then buying) increases every year, this is proved by the Scion offshoot (which is a success) and the reason "sporty" cars are so popular....and given the rising popularity in cars that are "sporty" or "sports" cars any company who doesnt make an effort to appeal to the youger buyers is losing money now, and will later when those same people go to buy a car again.

all i have said is not opinion, its not one sided, and its all true...
so give up dude

graywolf624 · 01-18-2004, 08:39 PM

GM only owns a 15-20% stake in subaru like was stated earlier, so GM does not hold the control over subaru, so it cants axe it, and it cannot decide where the company goes with its line up, once again, all the conclusions made in my last post are true, i dont see why you argue with me, when its obvious so ill repeat it again, so you an read it again

Errr... wrong.. 15-20 percent stake when you realize they are the second largest shareholder means for all practical purposes they make that decision. Please learn how the corporate world works.

GM would benefit from a better sporting/racing image, GM needs a sub 30 grand sporty car line to compete in the new trends and niche markets, a Subaru is a Subaru, not a GM, and Image is important to any comapny, these are FACTS, i dont see why you are disputing them....

Why does gm need a sub 30 grand sporty car? Where is bmws sub 30 grand sporty car? Hondas? Toyotas?

yeah sure toyota sales tons of cars without a sport image, but i bet if they had a sportier image they would sale more...

I can bet Id win the lottery but that dont make it true. Look at many cars with racing pedigree that failed. Hell even many marques that failed.
I guess bently got sold so many times because it had no racing pedigree? I guess we love lambos for their racing pedigree(non existant)?

the Civic base is a economy car, the Civic Si is a sporty car, look at its racing heritage...and looks at the performance it delivers, just cause you dont like it, doesnt mean its not a sporty car, it has all the right attributes, it handles well in its class, it performs well in its price range, and its comfortable on a race track, and can be modified to be much more potent...

The si is not performance oriented.. it is not a sporty car. It doesnt handle well. It is just as much an econo box as the base car. It is attitudes like this that disgust me. It isnt comfortable on a race track. I guarentee you will never see it on a race track in stock form making any sort of waves. And sporty haritage? What sporty haritage does a civic have compared to chevys winning lemans recently or even the mustangs drag racing championships. Yet it outsells both. I've said it before and Ill say it again. The civic si is not a sporty car.

tabh · 01-18-2004, 08:42 PM

ohhh i forgot about all the classic jap cars out there and all the ppl restoring them because there so cool and reliable hahaha

graywolf624 · 01-18-2004, 08:44 PM

"and also ppl here are talking shit about manufacturers and who owns what and shit, this is so stupid, this was a about THE MUSCLES AND THE JAP CARS WAR "

There is no such thing though. There are no muscle cars any more. Havent been since the 70s.. The mustang and camaro are not muscle cars they are pony cars.

There also is no such thing as a japanese car anymore either. It is all globalized. Many of the cars are designed and built in the market for which they are sold. You cant tell me the ford focus is any less japanese then the miata or mazda6.

tabh · 01-18-2004, 08:45 PM

true I consider all fwd foreign

PaulGT2164 · 01-18-2004, 09:00 PM

"The si is not performance oriented.. it is not a sporty car. It doesnt handle well. It is just as much an econo box as the base car. It is attitudes like this that disgust me. It isnt comfortable on a race track. I guarentee you will never see it on a race track in stock form making any sort of waves. And sporty haritage? What sporty haritage does a civic have compared to chevys winning lemans recently or even the mustangs drag racing championships. Yet it outsells both. I've said it before and Ill say it again. The civic si is not a sporty car."

why dont you get your head outta your ass for a second and go to a race track...the Si model and the Type-R model civics are Sporty cars, and are comfortable on tracks, and handle great for a sub 20 grand FWD car...you obviously have no experience in this area, and are talking based on your personal dislike of the civic, i dont like them either, but the fact remains, they are good cars, and are good for a track car and a daily driver...so your plain out and out wrong there, theres proof of it everywhere.....Civics and Integras (same car) have won many many Speed GT touring car races/champion ships, Civic Si also do extremly well in the autocrss class, why dont you look at the stuff before you run your mouth, but here i guess i will educate you.

The CR-X participated in the U.S.SCCA GT-4 class through the cooperation with American Honda Inc. It won the championship.

Mugen Civic participated in the Japanese Group A Touring Car Series and the class title.
Second participation in Suzuka Eight-hour Endurance Race " White Bull II"

1986 :
Defended the U.S. SCCA GT-4 class title. Mugen-Prepared Acura Integra
participated in IMSA, winning the class championship.

1987 :
Defended the IMSA champion.
Won the U.S. SCCA GT-4 class title for three consecutive yaers.
Won the Series title ( class3 ) in the Japanese Group A Touring Car Championship.

1993F
The Civic Ferio participated in All Japan Touring Car Championship.

1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004
Speed GT touring car, Civics and Integras won many races and championships beating, Bmw 3 series, mazda proteges, and lexus is300, among others
The NA class of IRDC drag racing records are held by honda civics and CRXs
Civics are also in the top of their class SCCA autocross and amateur racing

the Civics has jsut as rich of a racing history as anyother car, thats only a fraction on it i posted, before making ignorant comments, you should check what you say

"Errr... wrong.. 15-20 percent stake when you realize they are the second largest shareholder means for all practical purposes they make that decision. Please learn how the corporate world works."

i know how the corporate world works, dont belittle me, GM cant do shit to subaru, 15-20% , that leave 85-80% in shareholders, which in the even GM would want to change subaru, or axe them wouldnt let it happen....period, its too good of a company, with too much sucess....the other shareholders are prolly sided with the japanese interest, seeming they are mostly japanese and in direct business relation with Fuji Heavy Industries.

you need to pick up a copy of two moths ago, baseline magazine, it was all about how marketing and image can change a company...and its a proven PROVEN fact that a stronger performace and racing image helps a car company sale cars, why else would car manufacturers wanna race cars? bragging rights? thats not profitable, but gaining a racing/perfromance image is...plain and simple

tabh....there are lots of people restoring old celicas, skylines, colts, etc etc...dont make yourself out to be ignorant with your biased and one sided comments...some old school jap cars are just as good and good looking as american cars, look at the 70s celicas, and the early skylines, Levin t27s, rx-7s, etc etc, just cause you are not open minded enough to realize this, or too stupid to do some research or open your eyes, donest mean you should take up space on this board with your infantile comments

graywolf624 · 01-18-2004, 09:14 PM

why dont you get your head outta your ass for a second and go to a race track...the Si model and the Type-R model civics are Sporty cars, and are comfortable on tracks, and handle great for a sub 20 grand FWD car...you obviously have no experience in this area, and are talking based on your personal dislike of the civic, i dont like them either, but the fact remains, they are good cars, and are good for a track car and a daily driver...so your plain out and out wrong there, theres proof of it everywhere.....Civics and Integras (same car) have won many many Speed GT touring car races/champion ships, Civic Si also do extremly well in the autocrss class, why dont you look at the stuff before you run your mouth, but here i guess i will educate you.

Me no experience.. hahahahahahahaha... Being that I am a regular at the track and race weekly I'm prolly more then qualified to give you the heads up.. There are very few civics out there in racing. Still less civic sis. Why dont you learn how racing works. That the civic is in a class seperate from alot of things.

What does this have in common with the honda civic si.. Nothing. The cr-x is not the honda civic si. No one sees it or even thinks of the two as similar.

1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004
Speed GT touring car, Civics and Integras won many races and championships beating, Bmw 3 series, mazda proteges, and lexus is300, among others
The NA class of IRDC drag racing records are held by honda civics and CRXs
Civics are also in the top of their class SCCA autocross and amateur racing

the Civics has jsut as rich of a racing history as anyother car, thats only a fraction on it i posted, before making ignorant comments, you should check what you say

I think its time to take the steam out of your sails. British touring car championship. FWD cars are given a considerable weight advantage due to the rwd superiority on the track.

SCCA autocross classes: aka they only face other fwd cars.
Same with drag races. So they win fwd challenges. That shows jack shit for overall. FWD cant ever compete with rwd on equal footing.. Learn some physics man.

If you want a true inclination of which cars are comfortable at the track you should look at amatur racing where people dont make whole new cars based on a platform. If you look closely you'll find that the leading classes don't have fwd cars. That there are no fwd cars in many of the open classes. A fwd car is like my camaro for the race track. You go on a budget realizing it can't ever really compete with the m3, vette, ect of the world. You make it the best of what it has in its class or maybe slightly better then the m3 or vette for about same money.. but in reality you cant ever beat the rwd part for part.
Even the fwd classes are not dominated by civics anymore. Moreover the newer gen civics never were competitive in these classes. As the generations have gotten older the civic has become a porker. Youll find the ones doing well in scca are crx era not the new ones. We already covered you could by a used vette for as much as a new civic. Care to argue the civic is the equal to the vette in terms of racing?(this is all ignoring the reliability issue).

i know how the corporate world works, dont belittle me, GM cant do shit to subaru, 15-20% , that leave 85-80% in shareholders, which in the even GM would want to change subaru, or axe them wouldnt let it happen....period, its too good of a company, with too much sucess....the other shareholders are prolly sided with the japanese interest, seeming they are mostly japanese and in direct business relation with Fuji Heavy Industries.

You still dont understand man. They dont have to compete with the other 80-85 percent. In general in a large corporation the biggest shareholders make the decisions. So the only people that override gm is the main owners of fuji. They aren't going to go directly in the face of their investors. Why do you think we are getting a saab based on the wrx. That cant be in play with japanese interests.

you need to pick up a copy of two moths ago, baseline magazine, it was all about how marketing and image can change a company...and its a proven PROVEN fact that a stronger performace and racing image helps a car company sale cars, why else would car manufacturers wanna race cars? bragging rights? thats not profitable, but gaining a racing/perfromance image is...plain and simple

Just because they believe that doesnt mean its true. Need I point to more sales flops that excelled on the race track or vice versa. What you dont understand is that races mean very little for sales anymore. Reliability has taken over for the staple of image.

Do i need to trace gms racing routes. I hate to break it to you but they make your little honda history look like a joke. Even in recent years gm has far more racing history then honda, toyota, or dodge(recently dodge hasnt made that many waves in the racing world sadly).

Hell we live in a country where nascrap rules. Gm routinly has a division win that bs. Id argue that nascrap is the only racing your average american knows or cares about.

PaulGT2164 · 01-18-2004, 09:30 PM

dude, you dont know what you are takling about....honda has been racing sucessfully, since 1963....and its racing programs encompass everything from cars, boats, F1, Formula 3000, superbikes, rally, touring car, protoypes, SCCA, endurance, etc, its racing heritage is jsut as good as any manufacturers, and it encompasses more diverity than just about any company...i find your bashing of honda, due to your ignorance with it, to be hilarious.....GMs racing programs are great, dont get me wrong, but honda has them beat hands down in terms of diveristy, and has just as good win record, and just as good history...as with any moanufacturer just about, you should educate yourself a lil more, and open your mind

you are not more qualified than me on a race track there buddy, i will garantee you that one considering i build/race cars for a living, and yeah class does matter, or there would be 110hp miatas racing against 500hp vipers, and the civic Si and the Type-R are made to be daily drivers, and occasionally track raced, plain and simple, look it up..i have 3 friends who have Civic Sis, and they are great on the track, very forgiving, and fast in their class, and can even pick off a few cars in a class above them, just because you have a diluted and biased opinion of them doesnt change the FACT (you know what that means too right?)

the steam is still in my sails, the rwd cars dont have a wieght penalty cause of RWD being supeior, its to make up for the FWD cars 4 banger powerplants not making the same power levels....when you get into that high of a compitition level, a FWD with proper setup is just as effective as a RWD, and that will piss alot of die hard RWD'ers off , but its true, you just have to have it set up correctly.
and this whole sporty image and racing cars sells cars, if you dont agreee with this you need to go back to college, if you have even got there yet, and take a few business classes, because its a PROVEN (do you know what that word means) fact a strong and successful racing prgram increases car sales...plain and simple, so shut up with your arguemens about it, cause thats a fact....the more you argue it the more ignorant you sound.

you wrote,
"You still dont understand man. They dont have to compete with the other 80-85 percent. In general in a large corporation the biggest shareholders make the decisions. So the only people that override gm is the main owners of fuji. They aren't going to go directly in the face of their investors. Why do you think we are getting a saab based on the wrx. That cant be in play with japanese interests."

yes they do have to compete with the shareholders, a majority vote by the other sharehodlers can overide one big one, as long as its a majority.plain and simple economics here budro, and why would subaru not wanna help out saab? saab is regarded as a luxury brand and is highly regarded, it is in the best interests for the company.....thats simple good business decisions there, its easy, given the fact GM owns saab, and a stake in subaru, its even better business practice to help out seeming they are all "in bed" together.

graywolf624 · 01-18-2004, 09:46 PM

and its racing programs encompass everything from cars, boats, F1, Formula 3000, superbikes, rally, touring car, protoypes, SCCA, endurance, etc, its racing heritage is jsut as good as any manufacturers, and it encompasses more diverity than just about any company...i find your bashing of honda, due to your ignorance with it, to be hilarious.....GMs racing programs are great, dont get me wrong, but honda has them beat hands down in terms of diveristy, and has just as good win record, and just as good history...as with any moanufacturer just about, you should educate yourself a lil more, and open your mind

I never bashed honda. GM has a larger race program in cars then honda though. GM has a longer history too. I can show you gm race cars from the 1920s. I don't give a shit about bikes or boats. And yet again if racing computes to sales then they better drop the rest and get in nascrap.

you are not more qualified than me on a race track there buddy, i will garantee you that one considering i build/race cars for a living, and yeah class does matter, or there would be 110hp miatas racing against 500hp vipers, and the civic Si and the Type-R are made to be daily drivers, and occasionally track raced, plain and simple, look it up..i have 3 friends who have Civic Sis, and they are great on the track, very forgiving, and fast in their class, and can even pick off a few cars in a class above them, just because you have a diluted and biased opinion of them doesnt change the FACT (you know what that means too right?)

I've seen your race cars page. I frankly find it to be amusing. I wont bash you for it, but I take your I race cars with a living as a grain of salt. Especially when you have yet to state which series you run in. As for myself I am working my way into nasa american iron extreme. Just because you sell parts doesn't mean you know anything. I can show you parts shops that know nothing. I can show you parts manufacturers that no nothing.

the steam is still in my sails, the rwd cars dont have a wieght penalty cause of RWD being supeior, its to make up for the FWD cars 4 banger powerplants not making the same power levels....when you get into that high of a compitition level, a FWD with proper setup is just as effective as a RWD, and that will piss alot of die hard RWD'ers off , but its true, you just have to have it set up correctly.

BS! BS! BS!
Lets see.. A tire has a maximum ability. This maximum ability is spread out between acceleration braking and grip. If the front tires have to both accelerate and turn at the same time they can never be as good as a car where the front only has to turn. It is simple physics. The rules specifically say.. fwd cars.. not 4 bangers get lighter weight requirements. Not japanese. Not 4 banger.

and this whole sporty image and racing cars sells cars, if you dont agreee with this you need to go back to college, if you have even got there yet, and take a few business classes, because its a PROVEN (do you know what that word means) fact a strong and successful racing prgram increases car sales...plain and simple, so shut up with your arguemens about it, cause thats a fact....the more you argue it the more ignorant you sound.

I have a degree. I somehow doubt you do. It isnt a proven fact that racing sells cars. Many companies believe that but it is not a set given. Many companies that never did racing have succeeded and many that failed have regardless of how much they raced. You can also see that the american market cares most about reliability ratings and what is hip with the young crowd. You still dont account for the fact that your average american knows no other type of racing then nascrap. It has little to no effect in america. Worldwide and in niche groups Id agree with you. However, overall the best selling cars are the ones with the best rep for reliability and the coolest image. Or need i reiterate the best selling cars now and in the past.. Almost none of them having racing pedigree for their model and many dont have much for their company.. Toyota Camry.. VW bug... Ford f150.

yes they do have to compete with the shareholders, a majority vote by the other sharehodlers can overide one big one, as long as its a majority.plain and simple economics here budro, and why would subaru not wanna help out saab? saab is regarded as a luxury brand and is highly regarded, it is in the best interests for the company.....thats simple good business decisions there, its easy, given the fact GM owns saab, and a stake in subaru, its even better business practice to help out seeming they are all "in bed" together.

You still dont understand man. When a large company makes a decision on a car they ask a certain number of share holders what they think and decisions based on that. That does not include the smaller shareholders. That is how large share holders such as gm directly influence a decision. The leseer shareholders(or about 25-30 percent of that 80 you list) have an indirect effect based on the demand for the shares and votes on mergers and such. The larger share holders basically create a board of trustees the guides day to day major transactions. If you dont believe that gm has a large portion of this board on their side then your smoking something. Not to mention there was a big uproar within fuji and the indignation of gm taking the wrx architecture and using it in a saab. Something about national pride.

PaulGT2164 · 01-18-2004, 10:03 PM

"I've seen your race cars page. I frankly find it to be amusing. I wont bash you for it, but I take your I race cars with a living as a grain of salt. Especially when you have yet to state which series you run in. As for myself I am working my way into nasa american iron extreme. "

thats not a complete page either there budro...i have built/worked on/raced everything from 710 hp mustangs to 390-400hp audi S4s....and i have drive more fast cars, and worked on more fast cars in the last month than most people do in a lifetime, just cause my website skills are lacking, or i dont have the time to post my over 350 pics of cars i work on doesnt mean shit, the page isnt for my business completely yet anyways its for my friends who are on a very limited budget. so dont even go there, i dont race in a series yet, i am too busy building cars...that my man goal, but i do go to the drag strip often. i have built raced everything from 16 second cars, to 7 second cars...i take my car building/racing very seriously, and my work is second to none

FWD is a very good platform when tuned right, and set up correctly...people who dispute this have no experience, or have yet to realize the leaps and bounds the suspension technology has taken in the last 5 years. the CRX is a offshoot of the Civic platform , hence why in some circles its called a Civic CRX

racing cars does sell cars, it is a proven fact, if it didnt what would be the point. racing cars increases brand awareness, and it increases the sporting/racing image of a manufacturer.....its such a simple and common practice, i dont know why you cant grasp it...maybe you need to go back to school...im not saying its the only thing that sells cars, i am saying it helps sell cars

any sort of majoy corporate decision about the outcome of the companies future or product line is not mentioned to all shareholders, i know this, but the point of my statement is that GM cannot affect the way subaru operates, or how it develops its products with out the support of the major shareholders, and seeming most are involved with the jap side, gm will never be able to "axe" the company or "gm-atize" subaru, a subaru is a subaru, not a gm

i also have a degree, in business administration and management. so dont make assumptions about me, cause youll come out an ass

PaulGT2164 · 01-18-2004, 10:19 PM

anyhows i have grown bored of this, so ill state my original points, which are facts again

1. GM has a model line hole for "sporty cars" under 30 grand, it has to fill, and can gain market share and money in if done correctly

2. Chevy has to get the camaro right, unlike the impala, montecarlo, and malibu, and make it a competitior with the new mustangs, and evos, and stis, or it will destroy a good nameplate and lose out in the pony cars wars. and they will have to develop a new platform or heavily modify a existing one to get that. the same ol shit is not gonna cut it.

3. Subrau is a a Subaru, not a GM, Subaru designs, researches, and makes all the decisions with its lineups, so gm has nothing to do with it besides a stake, a wrx is a subie, not a gm

4. Having a successful racing program raises product awareness, and image, and has proven hundreds of times to help sell cars, why else would a manufaturer invest millions in a racing program? whats ferrari and porsche famous for? racing. why do people want stis and evos besides performace? racing heritage. plain and simply, having a successful racing program helps a manufacturer sell more cars by raising brand awareness, and public image and opinion, as well as instilling pride of ownership. FACT

5. the Civic Si, as well as honda, has a rich racing hertitage, as good as any other manufacture, and for the price the civic si, sentra se-rs, celicas, and lancer rallisports are good "sporty" cars for the money, and some make decent entry level track cars.

6. GM needs to get with the times, and update its lineup, and pay more attention to the youth market, because a ton of money can be made there, and they have been pretty much ignoring it this whole time.

now why these simple facts and non-bashing statements require pages of stupid ass arguing still evades me, but i dont give a shit, all my statements are 100% true, and any attempt to argue them is just stupid, i know you are a GM fan greywolf, but even you cant deny the fact that GM needs to do a better job on the camaro, cause ford done a amazing job on the new mustang, and with the recent introduction of the rx-8, sti, and evo8, the market in the price range is not a forgiving niche, so if GM screws up the camaro, its gonna loose a ton of money, as well as tarnishing the performance image of the camaro, and chevy. i want chevy to do it right, i want to see more compitition in all the segments, and i hope they do, they just have to excert more effort and more awareness than they have in the past. every major automotive source, journalist, and editor has basically said the same exact thing.

graywolf624 · 01-18-2004, 10:20 PM

FWD is a very good platform when tuned right, and set up correctly...people who dispute this have no experience, or have yet to realize the leaps and bounds the suspension technology has taken in the last 5 years. the CRX is a offshoot of the Civic platform , hence why in some circles its called a Civic CRX

A couple of things you need to understand. Drag racing and road racing are completely different setups. You can be an expert driver or designer in one and suck at the other. Same with autox and road racing. I know the crx is an offshoot of the civic platform. I also know that your average american does not associate it with civics and it has practicaly nothing in common with the current civic(just like the commonalities between the sn95 mustang and the mustang II are practically nonexistant). Its a different chasis then they use now. Not to mention those cars are about as similar to what you see on the road or in the show room as a schwinn is to a harley. I never said fwd couldn't be a good platform for its class. But fact is it can't ever compete with rwd of simular competent design. Physics proves that.

racing cars does sell cars, it is a proven fact, if it didnt what would be the point. racing cars increases brand awareness, and it increases the sporting/racing image of a manufacturer.....its such a simple and common practice, i dont know why you cant grasp it...maybe you need to go back to school...im not saying its the only thing that sells cars, i am saying it helps sell cars

And I am saying it doesnt as much anymore at least in the US. Look at the masses man. How many of them even know what the scca is. How many of them have ever seen formula 1. The only race popular with the masses is nascrap. For the most part it really isnt working for the US market anymore. Many of the companies that still race are holding onto a past that doesn't work as well in this era. I'm not saying it is never effective. I am saying that for the most part in the us it isn't what drives things anymore. Movies like the fast and the furious drive the current market. Reliability surveys drive the current market. The average person is just like most of our parents. They dont give a rats ass about performance. It is all about what gets them from point a to be most reliably.

[quote]
any sort of majoy corporate decision about the outcome of the companies future or product line is not mentioned to all shareholders, i know this, but the point of my statement is that GM cannot affect the way subaru operates, or how it develops its products with out the support of the major shareholders, and seeming most are involved with the jap side, gm will never be able to "axe" the company or "gm-atize" subaru, a subaru is a subaru, not a gm
[\quote]
They cant axe the company but they can axe the car. By the way fiat can axe ferrari(as scary a thought as that is. though theyd be nuts to do it).
If simply the right to get rid of the company pertains to ownership then your marginalizing. As for gmatize. Is their such a thing? Each division is different with a few minor platform shares. No one is going to confuse a saab for a chevy. Nor are they going to look at an aston martin and see ford. I dont see chevy when I look at caddilac either.

[quote]
i also have a degree, in business administration and management. so dont make assumptions about me, cause youll come out an ass[\quote]
And yet I didn't. I said I wouldn't say anything there. You sure keep making assumptions about me.

PaulGT2164 · 01-18-2004, 10:21 PM

well i am through arguing, this has evolved into a pointless discussion, read my last post, it contains my original points, and my orignal thoughts, which are true

blah · 01-18-2004, 10:26 PM

Ok to the guy saying the Civic Si is a sporty car, you are very very wrong. Its not sporty at all. Its horribly slow, the SRT-4 is a Sporty car, not the Si, the Si is a wannabe. Also paul Civics and Integras are not the same car, The Integra has always been the faster of the two, in the current version (RSX) and in its previous version.