AutoCar - 223mph in a Bugatti Veyron

[gis]

Originally Posted by RC45 Originally Posted by gis so much for a bitching free month,lol That knife cut's both ways..

you are right.people just have to realise some like one thing others dont,everyone has valid points,when thinking about it yes everyone is right this car is amazing,it has the best of everything on it to run and the best of everything for comfort....but so it should for £1.000.000 ......the same as RC is right by saying it isnt the first car out there to run 1000hp.

Not everyone can afford £1.000.000,but a majority of people can afford to make a skyline,a supra,an RX7,a camaro,a mustang and a vette 1000hp,but obviously it wont be to the standards (mainly comfort wise) as what the Veyron does straight out.

I like the Veyron,and yes if i had £1.000.000 to spare id probably have one,but at the same time....what RC is tryin to say in his own unique way,you can run a 1000hp car for a lot less as its been done already for quite some time

[RC45]

^^ BTW, notice how the normal average for views in this sub-forum, is about 30 views.. and this thread has almost 1000....

Now, we could say it's because the Veyron draws lots of atention - or... we could say it's because not every thread is blessed with the typ eof quality content replies that this one is

[Svensson]

^ But the most probable reason is that I started this thread...

[RC45]

Originally Posted by Svensson ^ But the most probable reason is that I started this thread...

That's also a good probability.. you are hot property these days

[tforth]

RC45 wrote:
LPE doesn't need to do shit.. and neither does GM - TREMEC does it for them.. I guess you have NEVER bothered to wonder out of your basement.. you do know that EVERY engineered component is for sale... right?
[/quote]

Suppliers to OEs don't do anything is complete isolation of their customer. The customer issues the requirements is terms of performance, relia/durability, cost, timing, quality, etc.

You sound like you have never worked in the automotive industry. Things are actually much more complicated than you seem to understand.

Oh, btw did you see the latest (german) sport auto? The tested your fabled Z06, and it was slower (just) than the 997 GT3s around the NS. Horst von Saurma did a 7:49 (vs. 7:48 & 7:47 for the GT3 and RS). For reference, the M3 CSL did a 7:50...

[jorge]

the speedo take at the end is incredible

[RC45]

Originally Posted by tforth Originally Posted by RC45 LPE doesn't need to do shit.. and neither does GM - TREMEC does it for them.. I guess you have NEVER bothered to wonder out of your basement.. you do know that EVERY engineered component is for sale... right? Suppliers to OEs don't do anything is complete isolation of their customer. The customer issues the requirements is terms of performance, relia/durability, cost, timing, quality, etc.

Exactly.

And their are upgrade components, tested and verified and validated for TREMEC transmisison to withsatnd all sorts of power.

So again - why do youinsist on arguing for arguing sake, when it is PISS EASY and REAL SIMPLE to upgrade ANY T56-based TREMEC transmission to withstand 1000hp.

Please - explain why you just promoting lies and ill will?

Originally Posted by tforth You sound like you have never worked in the automotive industry. Things are actually much more complicated than you seem to understand.

And just because YOU have worked in the "auto industry" you are God?

According top YOU there is NO SUCH things as a 1000bhp enable transmission - yet you can BUY an ENGINEERED one OFF the SHELF.

So again - explain how YOU know MORE about products than the very compnay does abou tits own product?

Please do.

Originally Posted by tforth Oh, btw did you see the latest (german) sport auto? The tested your fabled Z06, and it was slower (just) than the 997 GT3s around the NS. Horst von Saurma did a 7:49 (vs. 7:48 & 7:47 for the GT3 and RS). For reference, the M3 CSL did a 7:50...

Your point? Or do you even have one?

But lets get back to this bit about YOU knowing more about engineered products than the manufacturers themsleves?

You make it sound like unless it comes from an actual auto company then the items must be piles of shit.

Please explain oh "auto industry engineering guru"? Please do.

Let us ALL know ho wYOU say ALL companies who supply after market engineered componets are fucking retard idiots who know NOTHING about NAYTHING compared to you.

Please learn us the goods of master. :roll: :roll:

Oh - while you are at it, don't forgte to call up GMPP and tell them their strengthened rear axles and diffs are complete and utter shit - because YOU say so.

According to YOU they are never tested or engineered or even worth knowing about.

SO again - TEACH us ALL about it. :roll:

[RC45]

Originally Posted by mrmojo77 Oh stop this worthless arguing already. Every post about Veyron should be locked for commenting.

No this is an important "coming to Jesus" for tforth.

He is claiming, publicly that he knows all about the auto industry, and that if an item is not build for or by an actual auto manufacturer then it is a piece of junk.

I want him to come clean instead of spreading false information to other readers and viewers of this forum.

The Veyron is what it is - and is built and engineered to do just that. he is no warguing way past the Veyron - and is claiming rubbish to be fact.

I am asking him to explain to all the readers how he claims that if an after market company builds an engineered improvement to their or another product how he is wrong, and that does ntop automatically make the product or enhanceent junk.

As an example.. TREMEC makes transmisison for many auto makers around the world.. and when produced for a specific model, they are built to meet that spec.. so the Dodge Viper has a TREMEC designed for 550bhp - but you can upgarde that transmission to withstand 1000bhp - he is claiming thi sis not possible because TREMEC neverbuilt the original to withstand thatmuch power.

He is refusing to admit that these parts are upgradable with manufacturer support.

When someone comes to forums claiming to be an "expert" then spreads lies and falsehoods, they need to come clean and be honest.

No ttry win arguments with lies.

That is the point.

Many people come to JW and spew "rubbish" like it is facts - and this is no good.

Let's keep it honest and correct - especially if as all you people claim JW is a car enthusiasts web forum.

If that is the case, let's keep the blowhards honest at least

[nthfinity]

Originally Posted by tforth nthfinity wrote: What IS impressive even considering the number of 1000+ hp cars on the street in USA, and elsewhere, is that the Bugatti has virtually no discernable lag from any speed, and rpm... Actually, to the contrary, I have heard from several different sources, that the Veyron DOES suffer turbo lag, depending on the conditions (i.e. RPM, load, etc.) Regarding all the heritage and styling matters, I don't really care. What impresses me is the level of engineering that has gone into this thing. The brakes use titanium pistons, and other technology from aerospace engineering, for example.

When i rode shotgun in it with Bugatti's test driver last year, lag nearly nothing.... particularly when compared against ALL turbo cars I've ever been in.

Also, somebody who claims to work for the auto industry mentioned something about Tremic not being able to build a good enough Transmission.... and cannot possibly have R1000 goals because they don't make 1000 parts.....

Let us assume that in Reliabilty engineering, there aren't other meathods of having reliabilty goals and that what tforth has said is 100% proof positive. That would make the rest of JW's collective intellegence drop by 5%.... ouch

FMEA, Six Sigma, ISO 9000 manufacturing, lean manufacturing, and rampant testing in fact is done by small tuning shops like Lingenfelter Performance Engineering... perhaps not ISO 9000, but companies which they recieve componentry from does.

Throught extrememe testing no less.... from temperatures of 130 F (somehow I doubt they test in many sub- zero aplications.... who would drive a 1000 hp rwd car when its snowing?.... eh, maybe somebody does it)

Not to mention, engineers are employed full time to make sure thier "shit dont break".... all in a well managed means of maintaining brand loyalty. It's a cutthrought business.

Furthermore, much is known through various racing aplications, be it bonneville, or Le Mans... and this technology is directly taken into use on these rabid performance vehicles made by some small tuning company.

Additionally, much knowledge has been gained over years of testing products, from the specific geometry of a crankshaft which is polished, and balanced like nothing in ANY production vehicle, specifically so it can stand the tension of 600, 800, 1000, 1500 hp applications. These aren't your average garage tinkerers.

As if to nail the head in the coffin, GM hire LPE, and other small tuning companies to develop much future technology. I would tell you specifics, if Tom Cress asked me specifically not to.

You are familiar with FMEA? right? You are familar with computer models to simulate falure modes, and that they have been accurate means of simulation since the early 80's, right? You know that the Americans developed FMEA, right? (In fact, right in Walled Lake Michigan... for the aerospace industry)

But, i guess you are the only expert.

[tforth]

RC45 wrote:
When someone comes to forums claiming to be an "expert" then spreads lies and falsehoods, they need to come clean and be honest.
[/quote]

Actually, you're the one using the terms 'expert' and 'god' when referring to my statements. My intent is only to provide mostly objective feedback from a car enthusiast who has been working for a tier one supplier for 15 years. We design/develop/manufacture patented engine component/systems, as well some non engine automotive related products as well. We supply on a prototype/production/service basis to almost all OEs around the world.

Through this experience, as well as my avid interest in high performance, but well engineered cars, I have learned a few things that I like to share from time to time in this forum.

The simple point I'm trying to make here, is that Veyron is much more than skin deep. Unfortunately, that is all the average enthusiast is aware of - the bare numbers. There is an immense amount of engineering that has gone into this car which 99% of the average enthusiast is unaware of. One example from the VW Phaeton is that it can cruise at a derestricted 186 mph, in 40°C, while maintaining the cabin temperature at 20°C (or something like this). This was a requirement of Ferdinand Piech when he commissioned this vehicle, even though it was speed limited to 155 mph...

In general german cars have historically been heavily over engineered (not necessarily the most reliable, mind you), and I believe the Veyron to be no different. It can do things like have exceptional high speed stability, that even Gordan Murray's fabled Maclaren F1 did not posses (just ask anyone who has run it above 210 mph). A garage that has a couple engineers could never hope to make a car that can compete with this accomplishment.

I am not saying that they can't make it faster/lighter/cheaper/etc. I'm just saying that it can not be as well engineered overall.

[tforth]

nthfinity wrote:
Throught extrememe testing no less.... from temperatures of 130 F (somehow I doubt they test in many sub- zero aplications.... who would drive a 1000 hp rwd car when its snowing?.... eh, maybe somebody does it)
[/quote]

I guess you haven't seen that Veyron video where is in a sustained drift on an ice covered lake. This is a perfect example of what I am refering to. Cold whether testing is just one of umpteen requirements the OEs have that tuners (in general) do not.

You are familiar with FMEA? right? You are familar with computer models to simulate falure modes, and that they have been accurate means of simulation since the early 80's, right? You know that the Americans developed FMEA, right? (In fact, right in Walled Lake Michigan... for the aerospace industry)

Yes, as any supplier knows, D/PFMEAs, DVP&Rs, etc. have been a deliverable to OEs for well over 10 years now. And yes I am perfectly aware of the fact that OEs commision suppliers to perform specific development work as well. We are regularly commisioned to perform these activities where they make sense to us.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by tforth Originally Posted by RC45 When someone comes to forums claiming to be an "expert" then spreads lies and falsehoods, they need to come clean and be honest. Actually, you're the one using the terms 'expert' and 'god' when referring to my statements. My intent is only to provide mostly objective feedback from a car enthusiast who has been working for a tier one supplier for 15 years. We design/develop/manufacture patented engine component/systems, as well some non engine automotive related products as well. We supply on a prototype/production/service basis to almost all OEs around the world. Through this experience, as well as my avid interest in high performance, but well engineered cars, I have learned a few things that I like to share from time to time in this forum.

And somehow everyone else is chopped liver?

Originally Posted by tforth The simple point I'm trying to make here, is that Veyron is much more than skin deep. Unfortunately, that is all the average enthusiast is aware of - the bare numbers.

And of course everyone else is just an "average enthusiast" :roll: -

Originally Posted by tforth There is an immense amount of engineering that has gone into this car which 99% of the average enthusiast is unaware of.

And you know this how? A little presumptuous.

Originally Posted by tforth One example from the VW Phaeton is that it can cruise at a derestricted 186 mph, in 40°C, while maintaining the cabin temperature at 20°C (or something like this). This was a requirement of Ferdinand Piech when he commissioned this vehicle, even though it was speed limited to 155 mph...

:roll:

Originally Posted by tforth In general german cars have historically been heavily over engineered (not necessarily the most reliable, mind you), and I believe the Veyron to be no different. It can do things like have exceptional high speed stability, that even Gordan Murray's fabled Maclaren F1 did not posses (just ask anyone who has run it above 210 mph).

Quoted for dramatic effect.

Originally Posted by tforth A garage that has a couple engineers could never hope to make a car that can compete with this accomplishment.

Of course not.. the likes of Steve Saleen and Alois Ruf are well known for creating absolute crap that sucks, is unreliable and handles for shit - afterall, they are not "engineered" but simply thrown together by a bunch of hicks in lederhosen.
:roll:

Originally Posted by tforth I am not saying that they can't make it faster/lighter/cheaper/etc. I'm just saying that it can not be as well engineered overall.

And this changes what about tuner cars?

[5vz-fe]

To my understanding, German cars tend to have certain parts over engineered, and certain parts under-engineered. This achieve the unreliable you are talking about.

A garage that has a couple engineers would choose to use something already engineered (and most likely race proven) and use that as a basis for a better product. In doing so, they can save ALOT of R&D and focus more on their overall packaging.

VW insist on using W engine design, but the only advantage of this design is its compactness. So to make up for the power deflict, they slap on more turbos, this solve the power issue but create the heat issue. Then they slap on 3 radiators to cool the engine, 1 heat exchanger for the air to liquid intercoolers. Now they have solved both power and heat issue, leaving the ultimate left over.....weight.

[JoeHahn]

Originally Posted by 5vz-fe To my understanding, German cars tend to have certain parts over engineered, and certain parts under-engineered. This achieve the unreliable you are talking about. A garage that has a couple engineers would choose to use something already engineered (and most likely race proven) and use that as a basis for a better product. In doing so, they can save ALOT of R&D and focus more on their overall packaging. VW insist on using W engine design, but the only advantage of this design is its compactness. So to make up for the power deflict, they slap on more turbos, this solve the power issue but create the heat issue. Then they slap on 3 radiators to cool the engine, 1 heat exchanger for the air to liquid intercoolers. Now they have to solve both power and heat issue, leaving the ultimate left over.....weight.

Power issue for the W engine design? VW Pushed the W12 to over 100 bhp/l and ran it for 24 hours reliably.

[nthfinity]

Originally Posted by tforth I guess you haven't seen that Veyron video where is in a sustained drift on an ice covered lake. This is a perfect example of what I am refering to. Cold whether testing is just one of umpteen requirements the OEs have that tuners (in general) do not.

Maybe you missed what I wrote, I wasn't talking about the Veyron, but a RWD car.
[/quote]