McLaren F1 speed record broken?

[sentra_dude]

Originally Posted by ikon2003 "The Koenigsegg CC secured its place in the history books with a top speed of 242 miles per hour which was captured on film" (Zero, Great Britain). This quote is from the Koenigsegg homepage. I have not been able to find any other souce verifying this quote, nor have I found any film footage, and the mysterious "Zero" publication eludes me as well. I'm quite skeptical of this claim, though I believe the CCR should be able to top 242mph when/if it's tested (assuming the 806 bhp, weight, and CD claims are true). Some facts about the Mclaren F1 and its record breaking run: It was actually a rather modified F1 car in order to break this record (which brings the term "production" into question), and a stock Mclaren F1 straight from the factory can only hit 218mph or so (depending on setup). The one that broke the record had: 1. The GTR engine with 691 bhp, significantly more than the stock. 2. A deregulated rev-limiter 3. A prototype XP-5 aerodynamic package which never appeared on any of the sold models. That's very different from the "typical" Mclaren F1, which many people (wrongly) envision set the top speed record.

Where did you find this information? I own Driving Ambition, and they make it pretty clear the car is not modified (besides the rev limiter):
"the meticulously prepared - but scrupulously standard - "
"Painstaking preparation of a perfectly put together but utterly standard production-spec 'XP5' ready for..."
[emphasis added]

Now, I'm not saying that Driving Ambition is the be all, end all gospel truth...but it is a published book, and I don't think they would have 'forgotten' to mention those modifications, because they are pretty significant, especially a different spec engine.

[ikon2003]

Originally Posted by sentra_dude Originally Posted by ikon2003 "The Koenigsegg CC secured its place in the history books with a top speed of 242 miles per hour which was captured on film" (Zero, Great Britain). This quote is from the Koenigsegg homepage. I have not been able to find any other souce verifying this quote, nor have I found any film footage, and the mysterious "Zero" publication eludes me as well. I'm quite skeptical of this claim, though I believe the CCR should be able to top 242mph when/if it's tested (assuming the 806 bhp, weight, and CD claims are true). Some facts about the Mclaren F1 and its record breaking run: It was actually a rather modified F1 car in order to break this record (which brings the term "production" into question), and a stock Mclaren F1 straight from the factory can only hit 218mph or so (depending on setup). The one that broke the record had: 1. The GTR engine with 691 bhp, significantly more than the stock. 2. A deregulated rev-limiter 3. A prototype XP-5 aerodynamic package which never appeared on any of the sold models. That's very different from the "typical" Mclaren F1, which many people (wrongly) envision set the top speed record. Where did you find this information? I own Driving Ambition, and they make it pretty clear the car is not modified (besides the rev limiter): "the meticulously prepared - but scrupulously standard - " "Painstaking preparation of a perfectly put together but utterly standard production-spec 'XP5' ready for..." [emphasis added] Now, I'm not saying that Driving Ambition is the be all, end all gospel truth...but it is a published book, and I don't think they would have 'forgotten' to mention those modifications, because they are pretty significant, especially a different spec engine.

1. The rev limiter is pretty universally agreed upon
2. The XP5 was a prototype "experimental" mclaren car which to be honest, no one but Mclaren really knows what was in it (a slight recant from what i stated before as no one knows for sure what was taken from the prototype) and what really ended up on the F1's that were sold. The chassis XP5 is the one that set the record - That is well documented. The aerodynamic package I read in a Road and Track magazine I'm pretty sure, but i haven't found the issue from which it came. As you'll see, the aerodynamics is just the tip of the iceberg...
3. The engine information is surrounded in the XP5 controversy, but it too is open to speculation - the reason i quoted it was based on a friend's research, but i don't have any hard sources to back that up i openly admit. Further skeptics believe there was even more differences between the cars, such as chassis adjustment and suspension, but much of it will just remain unproven theory.

The reason why I decided to post such information is the fact that people have deregulated their limiter, and have not reached near 240mph - deductive reasoning leads one to believe there was something else to the equation.

To those that wish to follow some of the lore behind the F1 and its record, here're a couple links:
"Why is the XP5 faster than the F1"
http://www.automotiveforums.com/t146695.html

And this one, besides a nice Mclaren synopsis, points to the fact that Mclaren had control of the XP5 testing, and it's not for certain that everything was standard, (since, after all - it was a prototype...)
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/...lFeldman.shtml

In conclusion, the top speed mystery is surrounded in mild debate and mis-information and I suppose truthfully cannot ever be 100% validated.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by ikon2003 The reason why I decided to post such information is the fact that people have deregulated their limiter, and have not reached near 240mph - deductive reasoning leads one to believe there was something else to the equation.

Gearing.

[mindgam3]

Originally Posted by ikon2003 Originally Posted by sentra_dude Originally Posted by ikon2003 "The Koenigsegg CC secured its place in the history books with a top speed of 242 miles per hour which was captured on film" (Zero, Great Britain). This quote is from the Koenigsegg homepage. I have not been able to find any other souce verifying this quote, nor have I found any film footage, and the mysterious "Zero" publication eludes me as well. I'm quite skeptical of this claim, though I believe the CCR should be able to top 242mph when/if it's tested (assuming the 806 bhp, weight, and CD claims are true). Some facts about the Mclaren F1 and its record breaking run: It was actually a rather modified F1 car in order to break this record (which brings the term "production" into question), and a stock Mclaren F1 straight from the factory can only hit 218mph or so (depending on setup). The one that broke the record had: 1. The GTR engine with 691 bhp, significantly more than the stock. 2. A deregulated rev-limiter 3. A prototype XP-5 aerodynamic package which never appeared on any of the sold models. That's very different from the "typical" Mclaren F1, which many people (wrongly) envision set the top speed record. Where did you find this information? I own Driving Ambition, and they make it pretty clear the car is not modified (besides the rev limiter): "the meticulously prepared - but scrupulously standard - " "Painstaking preparation of a perfectly put together but utterly standard production-spec 'XP5' ready for..." [emphasis added] Now, I'm not saying that Driving Ambition is the be all, end all gospel truth...but it is a published book, and I don't think they would have 'forgotten' to mention those modifications, because they are pretty significant, especially a different spec engine. 1. The rev limiter is pretty universally agreed upon 2. The XP5 was a prototype "experimental" mclaren car which to be honest, no one but Mclaren really knows what was in it (a slight recant from what i stated before as no one knows for sure what was taken from the prototype) and what really ended up on the F1's that were sold. The chassis XP5 is the one that set the record - That is well documented. The aerodynamic package I read in a Road and Track magazine I'm pretty sure, but i haven't found the issue from which it came. As you'll see, the aerodynamics is just the tip of the iceberg... 3. The engine information is surrounded in the XP5 controversy, but it too is open to speculation - the reason i quoted it was based on a friend's research, but i don't have any hard sources to back that up i openly admit. Further skeptics believe there was even more differences between the cars, such as chassis adjustment and suspension, but much of it will just remain unproven theory. The reason why I decided to post such information is the fact that people have deregulated their limiter, and have not reached near 240mph - deductive reasoning leads one to believe there was something else to the equation. To those that wish to follow some of the lore behind the F1 and its record, here're a couple links: "Why is the XP5 faster than the F1" http://www.automotiveforums.com/t146695.html And this one, besides a nice Mclaren synopsis, points to the fact that Mclaren had control of the XP5 testing, and it's not for certain that everything was standard, (since, after all - it was a prototype...) http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/...lFeldman.shtml In conclusion, the top speed mystery is surrounded in mild debate and mis-information and I suppose truthfully cannot ever be 100% validated.

1. The rev limiter is agreed upon, but this is only lowered in the other production engines to preserve longevity, it doesen't resemble a lack of performance in the engine or car.

2 + 3. You base some of your information from road and track.... that says it all, n besides it was a euro version of the F1 that broke the record, not American version. Road and track probably have never had their hands on the Euro car.

Secondly you're referring to "skeptics", "friends research" and "controversy" not fact and the best evidence you can come up with is two links to a forum debate and a seemingly American produced dodgy website.....

Who are these people that have deregulated their maccas and attempted a top speed run??

Sorry, i'll believe Ron Dennis and the many credible books/articles etc etc that I've read about the macca and not you

[ikon2003]

^That's fine, and it's only expected. I know i stray towards the side of the skeptics, which I'll believe is in the minority. I cannot afford the time as of now to find the articles or websites to ascertain my claims - the macca is nonetheless still regarded as the "fastest production car" on the planet.

RC brings up a good point about gearing.

And I realize there's a difference tween the US and the euro car, I believe mostly because of the exhaust and emissions regulations - and as far as i know, no one was able to get their hands on the XP5 version - that's the one that set the record not "a euro version." - it was a specific prototype macca - not a generic production model. (and fyi, the 231 mph initial record was set by the XP3 at nardo before the XP5 - another non production, but rather experimental prototype model)

[mindgam3]

They weren't prototypes in the true sense of the word.

The XP1 through to XP5 were almost all identical to the finished prodution models.

At least similar enough to be classed the same as the production model in the official sense. It having a GTR engine is completely out of the question....

The XP3 was used for durability testing.... what would be the point of durability testing a car that was different from the final model??

The XP5 was a marketing car and again.... whats the point of marketing a car thats different from the production models.

Even without the raised rev limiter, it still smashed the previous top speed record.

They admitted they raised the rev limit to get the 240.1 mph - if they had changed anything else I'm sure they would have admitted it.... I can't see it in Ron Dennis' philosphy to lie about his ultimate road car....

[ikon2003]

Bingo - this is about as close as I'll ever get to proving my point. Straight from the Horse's Mouth, this is a letter written by Gordon Murray himself (the leading man behind the F1 and an unquestioned automotive legend) to EVO magazine in their May 2003 issue "200+ MPH On the Road." The Quotes from his letter can be found on page 095.

In his letter, he is specifically refering to the "XP3 prototype" which he describes as:

"it did have the added benefit of being even faster. It was a little lighter than the final car at just 1120kg and the engine was given about 660bhp thanks to a special exhaust system and the fact that it had always had a more powerful 'old' engine." [emphasis added]

I think this is about as unequivocal proof as I can possibly get that the XP prototype Mclarens were significantly enhanced and also very different than the cars that were actually sold.

[is64fun]

from a point of view it will never be broken. think in this way. day by day, cars are getting more powerfull. so maybe 10-20 years later we will see 1000 ps cars like a normal m3 does today. in 1930`s the speed record was something like 100 mhp and who does remember it now? CCR has 806 ps which is 179 ps more then mclaren F1. and it has more modern tires. F1 is an astonishing car but as time passes it will look old. this is inevitable. i still thought F1 is the legend. but if the speed record is broken by some other car, i will not be sad unless a car which has same power as f1 did, same weight, and similar tech, breaks the speed record. but a 806 ps car, then 1001 ps car then a 1500 ps car... i do not care whether the
y had the speed record or not

[SFDMALEX]

As someone mentioned gearing already, reaching 240+ miles an hour is not hard at all these days with supercars coming out with 600+ stock bhp and advanced aero packages, and its easy as making a very long raitoed gearbox.

For your information the Long Tail 917s hit over 250mph at le mans before they put in the two checains. And they had around 600bhp, and had very shitty dowforce. 3rd gear was geared for about 195 miles per hour on them.

For todays cars to reach 250 miles per hour we would just have to fit them a very long ratio gearboxes. Period. Now unless your going to Le Mans it would be stupid to gear a car for 250mph because fuel consumption would be awful in city/highway driving. And track driving would suck aswel because you wouldnt have that security of going a gear down to get the tail around if you go in to deep....Think about taking les combes at 130kph in 1st gear going in wide, only thing you have left is neutral lol.


So cars will not get faster then they are now unless we stick in more gears in them. 7th gear would allow us that without going for very long ratios.


And remeber that the original Macca did have very long ratios. Watch some vids and notice how long it takes for the car to reach the redline.

Also remember the fact that the BPR Maccas were geared down a whole bunch because the stock settings just didnt do too well on track. Now racecars can have their ratios changed from race to race, but most race cars have a top speed closly resembling their stock counterpart, while the BPR Maccas were geared down a lot, never could they reach anywere near 240mph, only the long tail Le Mans versions remained closer to the stock car as far as gear ratios go.





So there are two solutions to that 250+ speed. Extremly long ratios on a 6speed=stupid or a 7 speed gearbox with top speed in no compromise in ratios.


And those who think that why not put standrat short gearing on gears 1-5 and then put a very long 6th. Well that would work in theory but you would need a stretch of road 3x longer then anything we have today.

[gottacatchup]

I cant believe noone has mentioned tires. Most of the supercars and the merc 65's could go faster than the macca but they are all limited by their tires. A production car just cant have the tires needed for these kind of speeds. Bugati had to have special tires designed for the veyron cause there was not a single company making street tires that could hold up in speeds of 220+

[No.1]

^^^ Erm... i think the Mercs would take off over 220mph to be honest... they don't have much in the way of downforce, and will probably be creating lift at that speed.

[rednallo]

just wait for the next edition of the guinnes book than w'll know for sure wont we.....

[inso]

rednallo no need to wait that long:
http://www.automotorundsport.de/d/74310

9ff is already there.

With one on 840 HP GET down Porsche GT3 set up the tuner 9ff a new speed record for to road-certified passenger car and exceeded thus the old record mark of the McLaren F1 of 386,7 km/h.


With accurately 388 km/h January Fatthauer, owner of the Tuninghouse 9ff, its converted Porsche around the high-speed oval of Nardo in South Italies.

The only 1,300 kilograms heavy Porsche is propelled by a Bi-turbo-engine with 3,8 litres capacity and an output of 840 HP. 9ff plans already now to break the own record. With a further vehicle change the 400 km/h mark is to be cracked.

(translation by babelfish)

my 2cents for McLaren, just watching the video where they do the record, i noticed they hardly change the gear, the engine pulls really well on top gear also, and from old Performance Magazine reading John Barker´s review, it is one of the few cars that pull strong in 300+ speeds. Not to forget it is still NA, doing a fast turboed car is a lot easier. And McLaren is not only about speed, every detail was honed til the end, no corners cut. Actually they didnt even make profit at first, GTR versions and such were profitable, there is a article about that too in the CAR mag. Once i read an article about some middle european business man that had McLaren, once he had a phone call from the factory, that there is something wrong about his car, datalogging is saying that ithe car is constantly getting 350km/h speeds. guy said that yes it does, there is nothing wrong with the datalogging. He used to have some fast 911, and after the new car his 3hour trips were half an hour shorter.

It is one Mutha Of A Car, with capital C. There might be faster(Veyron, koeniggsegg, Saleen S7 biturbo, whatever) and certainly will be, but none still will be the same. Even the seat rails were made to be as slippery as possible.

[Akmon]

koenigsegg say their car is the most powerfull,with 850 hp

[findleybeast]

Originally Posted by inso Once i read an article about some middle european business man that had McLaren, once he had a phone call from the factory, that there is something wrong about his car, datalogging is saying that ithe car is constantly getting 350km/h speeds. guy said that yes it does, there is nothing wrong with the datalogging. He used to have some fast 911, and after the new car his 3hour trips were half an hour shorter.

Actually I may have read about that same guy in another article. He (or some other McLaren owner) took his car to the McLaren shop to make sure everything was good, and the datalogging reported that he broke 200mph 2 times a day 5 days a week for about a month or so, and even was over 210 at some point. Turned out he commuted to work on the autobahn. McLaren looked over the car, and there were no problems and they sent him on his merry way.