Audi quits power race

[KramRS2]

Originally Posted by Just_me Who is the fastest depends on the driver but I think we all can agree that M-cars got more potential than S-cars being a good trackcar, also more involving to drive (yes , I talk about stock streetcarscars not modified or racing cars).

Yes, this is true.

BUT,
1) Turbo cars are easy and cheaper to mod, and with huge upgrades. So is very difficult to find a Audi without 40-50hp more than stock.
2) BMW are tricky to be driven in real world enviroment and in tracks, only very good drivers can explore the full potential.
3) In track days here, only the professionals run faster times than amateur drivers in ("equivalet") Audis.

I think that the porpouse is different. Audi S/RS have 98% of the performance (on tracks compared to M) but you could use it for 100% of the time (plaging Mr Clarckson).

On the streets, they (Ms) don't have chance.




BAck to the topic, I think that less weight is always better, but more power on a car with less weight is even better

[mindgam3]

Originally Posted by KramRS2 Originally Posted by Just_me Who is the fastest depends on the driver but I think we all can agree that M-cars got more potential than S-cars being a good trackcar, also more involving to drive (yes , I talk about stock streetcarscars not modified or racing cars). Yes, this is true. BUT, 1) Turbo cars are easy and cheaper to mod, and with huge upgrades. So is very difficult to find a Audi without 40-50hp more than stock. 2) BMW are tricky to be driven in real world enviroment and in tracks, only very good drivers can explore the full potential. 3) In track days here, only the professionals run faster times than amateur drivers in ("equivalet") Audis. I think that the porpouse is different. Audi S/RS have 98% of the performance (on tracks compared to M) but you could use it for 100% of the time (plaging Mr Clarckson). On the streets, they (Ms) don't have chance. BAck to the topic, I think that less weight is always better, but more power on a car with less weight is even better

BMW's tricky to drive? Where do u get that idea from? They've got masses of grip and when the grip does break it goes into controllable oversteer, the audi is more prone to understeer.

[mindgam3]

Originally Posted by everso Mindgam, the world isn't exactly like Top Gear, y'know like i said before, an addition of a $150 sway bar with other adjustments virtually eliminates most, if not all, understeer. If you have an Audi driver going to spend time on the track, he will have certainly done this mod. the control one has with a Quattro system around a track IS fantastic....and there is MORE grip than a BMW. More grip = more control. Audis are heavy cars, and THAT is the biggest problem they have, if anything. if you match up a B6 S4 with an E46 M3 and send them around a track, 9 out of 10 times, the S4 will lap faster just cos you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's not the truth.

lol, im not basing everything on top gear, ive driven an M3 around a track, and considering i own a 1.2 clio, got a better write up than an M3 owner who was there i think i can safely say they're not very hard to drive and control at speeds.

I also said a S4 is faster around a track, but IMO if you take a bog standard M3 and S4, the M3 is the better drivers car and is more fun to drive on a track. On a road situation i'd put them about even as you dont push the as hard to notice any understeer/oversteer. Dont get me wrong, the S4 is a great car, but i think the combination of being slightly lighter and being RWD makes the M3 not neccesarily the better car.... but the better drivers car

[sameerrao]

Damn I must be driving Miss Daisy out here ... I havent drifted my car yet ... Sameer the throttle is the pedal on the right ... push it down all the way son! ops:

[RC45]

LOL - just a few months ago everyone was bragging about how between BMW, Benz and Audi there was no end to the power wars in sight... not that Audi has lost the race, everyone is "Yeah - that's a good thing..." "There is such a thing as too much power" - "Audi was never about power"...

Let's see what the BMW crowd and Benz crowd have to say when those 2 announce that they are abandoning the power wars...

[mindgam3]

Originally Posted by RC45 LOL - just a few months ago everyone was bragging about how between BMW, Benz and Audi there was no end to the power wars in sight... not that Audi has lost the race, everyone is "Yeah - that's a good thing..." "There is such a thing as too much power" - "Audi was never about power"... Let's see what the BMW crowd and Benz crowd have to say when those 2 announce that they are abandoning the power wars...

BMW were never in the power war.... well they are but they design chassis and cars that are good enough to cope with them. I cant really see MB dropping out of it, would be amusing to see them do so though

[sameerrao]

Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by RC45 LOL - just a few months ago everyone was bragging about how between BMW, Benz and Audi there was no end to the power wars in sight... not that Audi has lost the race, everyone is "Yeah - that's a good thing..." "There is such a thing as too much power" - "Audi was never about power"... Let's see what the BMW crowd and Benz crowd have to say when those 2 announce that they are abandoning the power wars... BMW were never in the power war.... well they are but they design chassis and cars that are good enough to cope with them. I cant really see MB dropping out of it, would be amusing to see them do so though

Actually if they lop off a cylinder or two they could have pushed that lump in the MP4-19 and done a better job - notice I didnt mention MP4-19B

[sameerrao]

Originally Posted by brembo Originally Posted by sameerrao Damn I must be driving Miss Daisy out here ... I havent drifted my car yet ... Sameer the throttle is the pedal on the right ... push it down all the way son! ops: Thats the spirit..........put that right foot in level with the floor thru those corners........

Actually I've tried but the tires (Bridgestone S03-PP) and the quattro grip very well...

[mindgam3]

Originally Posted by sameerrao Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by RC45 LOL - just a few months ago everyone was bragging about how between BMW, Benz and Audi there was no end to the power wars in sight... not that Audi has lost the race, everyone is "Yeah - that's a good thing..." "There is such a thing as too much power" - "Audi was never about power"... Let's see what the BMW crowd and Benz crowd have to say when those 2 announce that they are abandoning the power wars... BMW were never in the power war.... well they are but they design chassis and cars that are good enough to cope with them. I cant really see MB dropping out of it, would be amusing to see them do so though Actually if they lop off a cylinder or two they could have pushed that lump in the MP4-19 and done a better job - notice I didnt mention MP4-19B

The poor performance of the MP4-19 was due to a crap aero package more than the engine though

I dont think they could get the heavy weight MB road engines down to a measely 90kg either

[KramRS2]

Originally Posted by mindgam3 BMW's tricky to drive? Where do u get that idea from?

they are tricky to drive 8-9/10th on real roads. Real roads have bumps, oil after a blind corner, dust where you didn't expected, grass from.... etc.

Quattro and whatever AWD systems (like used in EVOS, Scoobys etc), allow drivers to use much more the performance of the car in most situations where a RWD would be, at least, risky.

[sameerrao]

Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by sameerrao Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by RC45 LOL - just a few months ago everyone was bragging about how between BMW, Benz and Audi there was no end to the power wars in sight... not that Audi has lost the race, everyone is "Yeah - that's a good thing..." "There is such a thing as too much power" - "Audi was never about power"... Let's see what the BMW crowd and Benz crowd have to say when those 2 announce that they are abandoning the power wars... BMW were never in the power war.... well they are but they design chassis and cars that are good enough to cope with them. I cant really see MB dropping out of it, would be amusing to see them do so though Actually if they lop off a cylinder or two they could have pushed that lump in the MP4-19 and done a better job - notice I didnt mention MP4-19B The poor performance of the MP4-19 was due to a crap aero package more than the engine though I dont think they could get the heavy weight MB road engines down to a measely 90kg either

Ahem ... the frequent parking of the MP4-19 on the side of the road was not due to aero ... actually I am not sure if it was the same thing that hit them - once it was some defective engine parts, the other was poor packaging around the engine caused to overheat. I am glad they are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel

[mindgam3]

Originally Posted by sameerrao Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by sameerrao Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by RC45 LOL - just a few months ago everyone was bragging about how between BMW, Benz and Audi there was no end to the power wars in sight... not that Audi has lost the race, everyone is "Yeah - that's a good thing..." "There is such a thing as too much power" - "Audi was never about power"... Let's see what the BMW crowd and Benz crowd have to say when those 2 announce that they are abandoning the power wars... BMW were never in the power war.... well they are but they design chassis and cars that are good enough to cope with them. I cant really see MB dropping out of it, would be amusing to see them do so though Actually if they lop off a cylinder or two they could have pushed that lump in the MP4-19 and done a better job - notice I didnt mention MP4-19B The poor performance of the MP4-19 was due to a crap aero package more than the engine though I dont think they could get the heavy weight MB road engines down to a measely 90kg either Ahem ... the frequent parking of the MP4-19 on the side of the road was not due to aero ... actually I am not sure if it was the same thing that hit them - once it was some defective engine parts, the other was poor packaging around the engine caused to overheat. I am glad they are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel

i suspect the engine failures were due to pushing the engine too far in a gamble for more power to make up for the crap aero package. Either way it was a poor effort from McLaren but nice to see they picked it up with the 19B and hopefully will be up at the top where they should be next season

[Sir_GT]

Originally Posted by everso Originally Posted by Sir_GT Originally Posted by brembo Originally Posted by BADMIHAI The way I see it, BMW is still leading the race because they've had this philosophy for longer than MB and Audi. Please.....what ever BMW got Audi have a car that beats it....... Possibly in a straight line, thanks to their use of turbos. Poor ol' BMW insists on doing it the hard way by going through the natural aspirated route... imagine if they "cheated" like Audi... On a serious note: Audi beat BMW? No. Plain and simple. There are countless of M3's being raced the world over, and Brands Hatch on a family weekend is a clear example. You will see about 5-15 M3's on a good day (lots of visitors) at the track, and not a single RS4 or S4... those are usually kept at the parking lot. LOL.what the fuck are you talking about? That's all bullshit. how is using a Turbo "cheating"? that's ill-informed NONSENSE. and you obviously have NOT been to many track events yourself........i've been to TONS of them and they are full of S4s.....just as many as M3s.

Actually, after I thought about it, I do have to agree with you. Turbos aren't cheating at all. I mean, you can match a great NA engine with some intelligent use of turbos, especially in the areas of bhp, and its even better torque-wise.

Thing is, more torque means you'll need a sturdier, and ultimately heavier, transmission. So you end up adding weight. Then there's the issue of engine wear, whereas a properly maintained NA engine will last as long as you possibly want, a turbo engine will need replacements parts during the course of its lifetime, and eventually, the entire engine will have to be rebuilt.

So... it isn't cheating at all. Its actually a handicap.

RE: Track days

Obviously our track day experiences are rather different. I might have exaggerated the "no Audis on track" comment, but I do maintain that I really see far more BMWs than Audis, at least in my experience. Obviously, with you, its the other way around. If you ask me, until we can actually find irrefutable worldwide statistical evidence to support our arguments, we should just leave this argument for the moment.

Ciao.

[detsan]

For me the mercs will always be a prestige car along with the Audi,BMW etc.
There are exceptions(CLK DTM road car) but most of them are bought by older, richer people who are rewarding themselves for a life of hard toil.
They want to be cossetted in the lap of luxury; not put up with a harsh ride and insane peaky power delivery.

And not many are mech modified(in Aust at least uber cars here Sl65,M5,RS6 plus etc) simply because they have more than enough power for road work and most will never see a track.
To risk such a significant investment just does not make sense to them and I can see their point.
Odds are if they can afford one of these great cars then they can easily get an elise, caterham, ariel,radical,GT40 rep, cobra rep for their track fun.

But I love the work of MTM, Kleenmann,Brabus and the rest; they show that there are people who desire a more finely honed weapon god love em!

Great to see the passion that you guys have; true driver spirit!

Do the Audi cars require electronic mods to oversteer or just skill?
Motor mag here in OZ test them (S4,RS6 etc) in the performance car of the year test and if I remember correctly Cam Mcconnville(sic)(V8 supercar driver) had a hard time getting them to do anything(not like left foot brake etc).

[detsan]

Originally Posted by brembo Originally Posted by detsan Do the Audi cars require electronic mods to oversteer or just skill? Motor mag here in OZ test them (S4,RS6 etc) you have to turn off the electronic gadgets who are there to "help" you of course, from there and out its a matter of skills and knowing the car......

Sorry to be a pain brembo but is turning off the driver aids done by the simple press(s?) of a button or is it hardcore modifications of electronics?
Does it completely disable everything or is there a "nanny" mode present?
thanks