V8, V10, V12

[RC45]

Originally Posted by mindgam3 Originally Posted by RC45 Originally Posted by mindgam3 They aren't all the same displacement though are they? The same displacement - that is what " I think a 346ci push rod V6/V8/V10/V12" means... lol, im asuming ci stands for cubic inches then? We never use cubic inches over here so i just thought it was part of the engine name.... To be honest i wouldn't have thought the difference between them would be that great - not saying your estimates are wrong, but still

Well - as I posted graphs and tables of power from a dyno simulation program - it is a little more than an estimation.

Let's see you counter offer - with backup proof.



BTW, as I posted, EVERYTHING is the same for all 4 engines - including valve size... and since the valves in a V8 would not even fit in the bore of a V12, the valve area part of the calculation is overly optimistic.

Which just go show, as with all things - there is no such things as a "all things being equal" comparison, when you are comparing apples and oranges.

Redoing the excersize with appropriately sized valves - and leaving as many as possible factors the same, the results may vary a little.

However - until someone posts something with some backing I am going to take these numbers over anything else provided.

BTW, 346ci is 5.7 litres.. a quick Google search would have retruned 5.7l as the capacity for the LS6...

[sentra_dude]

Well, this is what I know from Formula One in the early 1990s before they went to all V10s, and of course this isn't scientific or anything, just an observation...

The V12's (Ferrari) produced the most power while being the heaviest (more parts), lowest revving (more moving parts in the value train and more friction), and highest center of gravity; which gave the Ferrari's good speed on the straights but contributed to their less than ideal handling (among other factors).

The V8's (Benetton) produced the least amount of power but were lighter and could rev higher, which gave the Benetton's better handling because of lighter engine weight (they could put more ballast down very low in the chassis which equals lower CG).

The V10 is a nice compromise between the two, with good horsepower and good revs, while still being light, hence most manufactures drifting in that direction even before it was put into the rules.

I think it would be interesting to see F1 deregulated so that manufactures could choose what engine configuration they like. I'd like to hear what a V12 sounds like at 17,000...or even 18,000rpm (don't know if they could get a V12 that high, but you never know ) 8)

btw, nice graphs and such RC

[yg60m]

Mate, i think you're wrong for the revs, the power comes (partly) from revs and the most powerfull V12 revs more than a V8 because every piston only have 1/12 (i.e. 250 cc for a 3 liters engine ) of the total capacity to carry when a V8 has 1/8 (i.e. 375 cc for a 3 liters ) . The number of pieces gives a biggest fuel consumption but not a lower rev from what i know.

[IgotWRXed]

Originally Posted by yg60m Mate, i think you're wrong for the revs, the power comes (partly) from revs and the most powerfull V12 revs more than a V8 because every piston only have 1/12 (i.e. 250 cc for a 3 liters engine ) of the total capacity to carry when a V8 has 1/8 (i.e. 375 cc for a 3 liters ) . The number of pieces gives a biggest fuel consumption but not a lower rev from what i know.

revs are a tricky problem as not all engines are created the same.

look at bigblock V8s, they have extremely low revs. but then look at a ferrari V8.

there are too many factors, hence why i gave a 3 line answer.

[Paco]

My money is also on the V12, simply because each individual cilinder is under less strain than with the other configurations (all having bigger cilinders).
This gives more balance, less strain on the material (total power is divided over 12 cil.) which in turn allows for higher revving and less miss-firing/detonation.

Drawbacks are a higher weight, bigger dimensions and a more fragile (since longer) crankshaft (at high revs). Best would then be a boxer 12-cil (as Ferrari used to have) for a low centre of gravity.

Just off-hand

[T-Bird]

honestly I would take a V8 over any of them though just because they are generally alot stronger of an engine and they make more than enough power if you want them to. Also alot cheaper to build and maintain

[RC45]

How about a little contest.

People submit the specs they want to see int he engine - I will build it... run the simulaiton and post the results.

Let's see who can design the best engine.



I need capacity, cylinders, valve count, size and some cam specs, intake choice type etc.

What other realism rules should we have? (to prvent someone coming up with 12 cylinders 1000ci, FI, nitrous etc etc.. )

[IgotWRXed]

hahaha i was about to suggest a 1000ci V-12 DAMMIT!!!

well, how about a W-16

[T-Bird]

maybe it should be based on an available engine

You know like nothing over a 572 or something

[RC45]

The simulation is limited to conventional round cyliner bores with reciprocating pistons in the counts og 4, 5, 6, 8 , 10 & 12.

Inline, V and flat layout.

Forced induction via centrifigal & roots type blowers as well as turbos & Nitrous are supported - as are 2 and 4 valve head layouts. (sorry 5 valve Ferrai guys )

Gasoline, Methanol, Ethanol, Propane and LNG are available.

Either way, take a look at the graph I posted on the first page to see the other detailed information you are free to manipulate.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by T-Bird maybe it should be based on an available engine You know like nothing over a 572 or something

Good idea - there are numerous stock blocks in the application.

Y'all choose what you want to base it on and we will see if it is there.

Here is a sample:

Buick 4 - 112, 121 & 151ci
Buick 6 - 173, 181, 231, 252
Buick 8SB - 305, 350, 350 (4inch bore)
Buick 8BB - 400, 430, 455

Toyota 4 - 1.3, 1.6, 2.2, 3.0, 3.4
Toyota 6 - 2.5, 2.8, 3.0
Toyota 8 - 4.7

A bunch of Hondas, VW's, Porsches, Nissans, Volvos, Lamborghini's etc... (no Ferrari's)

[fedezyl]

hehe, that's a nice little programe you have RC, i'd say conventional gasoline and n/a engines...so we can make it more interesting, and having the engine have as wide as possible for a power band....just some thoughts

[fedezyl]

any alfa blocks?? heh

[RC45]

Sorry - no Alfas - but VW's, Audis, BMW.s and Saab 4's.

Maybe an Alfa "clone" is possible.. One can change bore, stroke, valve size and number.

[sentra_dude]

Yes, this sounds like fun fun fun!

Although with all those variables it will be tough...but where's the fun if its not hard right?

I do think maybe set a few more guidelines, like only gas, and turbo...hmm isn't that cheating?


Anyone want to comment on the ability of V8s vs V12s to rev?