BMI - Amuse r35 gtr

[5vz-fe]

I would say tires....and also the track favors the torque curve of the turbo.

[toffytofik]

Originally Posted by styla21 How is the GT-R that good, that it runs the same lap time, being underpowered, but 200kg heavier than the Lambo? I really, really respect the GT-R is insanely quick! ......But I just can't digest (or accept) that it can outrun both the F40 or Mclaren F1. And how the hell does the old m3 (#22) faster than the New E92 m3 (#29)?? Unlikely. How reliable are these tests?

Originally Posted by fordgt84 ^ cud be many reasons; different level of driver skill, tyres, driver consistency, track conditions, all those computers in the gtr, rumors that the gtr's power figure is underrated etc...honestly u could go crazy analyzing lap times

Exactly. Generally these laptimes are just for reference. Most of them were taken from the actual Best Motoring Tsukuba Battles (races) as the fastest lap certain car has ran, others was posted as the result of intentional time attacks. I think some cars from that list can go at least 2-3 seconds faster than the posted time suggests.

As for the GTR's quickness, i was thinking of that and came up with some points:
First of all, as i said in my first reply to this thread power figures are underrated. It's output is more likely close to 520 bhp.
Second, GTR is obviously superior to the opposition regarding drivetrain and transmission.
6 speed DSG shifts very fast and boost pressure is maintained between the upshifts. People who drove the car say that gearchanges are insensible and it just accelerates nonstop. Furthermore in contrast to most of the supercars it's rather aggressively geared ~ it has shorter gear ratios and shorter final drive (i've compared).
Don't forget ATTESA ETS which is the most advanced awd system at the moment ~ helps to maintain traction under acceleration by sending torque to the fronts if the rears're spining.
Result is the ability to rapidly accelerate out of the corners ~ this is where GTR dominate (especially low speed ones).
Now if you take Tsukuba, it has three slow hairpins, last one is the most important ~ leads to the main straight so acceleration's especially critical there.

Other merits: pretty rigid chassis, good weight distribution, great aerodynamics (low Cd, positive net downforce)... Hell they've been developing the car for 5 years targeting 911 Turbo perfomance level and they made it. GTR's an awsome car no doubt about it.

Anyway, styla21, i'd recomend you to get 3'd issue of Best Motoring for this year to check the GTR's true potential (if you haven't yet). They compared GTR, Superleggera, GT3, TT and NSX-R in 0-400, slalom and held 5 laps battle at Tsukuba. Here's the torrent: http://www.mininova.org/tor/396

Originally Posted by 5vz-fe I would say tires....and also the track favors the torque curve of the turbo.

I seriously doubt the tires are so much better than you can find within other supercars.

[pagani]

That 5 lap open class car battle was awesome.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by toffytofik I seriously doubt the tires are so much better than you can find within other supercars.

Actually they are. The GT-R's tyres are closer to Supercups, while the rest of the bunch get Pilot Sports. 80 treadware vs 220 treadware.

Tyres are everything after you have thrown all the technology you want at the car.

That's why the CSL and GT3 RS shipped with Sportcups - as does the new Viper ACR.

[pagani]

Originally Posted by Sapetoku Amazing... a 59' lap at Tsukuba with so little tuning and so much weight! I just watched the Rev Speed Tsukuba Super Lap Special and those street tuned R34s and R33s with 600+ Bhp were having difficulties just doing 1 min flat. I'd love to see what this Beast from the East can do with some more tuning to the differentials and suspension... Engine seems very nice, turning up the boost 'a bit' A worthy replacement for the RB26 then!

Maby the owners of the older gtr's will swap the rb26dett for the new engine.

[toffytofik]

Originally Posted by RC45 Actually they are. The T-R's tyres are closer to Supercups, while the rest of the bunch get Pilot Sports. 80 treadware vs 220 treadware. Tyres are everything after you have thrown all the technology you want at the car. That's why the CSL and GT3 RS shipped with Sportcups - as does the new Viper ACR.

Well i'm not a tyre expert in any way and can't be the judge here, but one thing i know for sure - tyres mean everything. Now do you say they really got so much grip advantage? Well that would explain how it gets away with it's weight but meh... I'm not sure, i think i'll do a quick research on this.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by toffytofik Well i'm not a tyre expert in any way and can't be the judge here, but one thing i know for sure - tyres mean everything. Now do you say they really got so much grip advantage? Well that would explain how it gets away with it's weight but meh... I'm not sure, i think i'll do a quick research on this.

I am not knocking Nissan for shipping the GT-R with such awesome tyres, many of us wish other sports car manufacturers would do the same thing - afterall, whats the first upgrade almost any sporty driver makes to their new car?

It's the tyres. I do believe Nissan were willing to sacrifice any idea of tyre longevity in their pursuit for the title of a "stock car" putting down those lap times.

Traditionally, runflats have not received the tyre manufacturers attention to detail that the sport tyres did - but in the last 2 years manufacturers have approached Michelin and Bridgestone to get the runflats up to track day tyre specs.

Quite a number of countries now have specific rules regarding cars that dont carry spare tyres now - losing the spare is an easy way to shed weight. Runflats are the answer - but are only now getting sticky enough to be truly replacements for dedicated supersports tyres.

[Erez]

Originally Posted by pagani Maby the owners of the older gtr's will swap the rb26dett for the new engine.

some how I dont see that happening..

[toffytofik]

Back to the tire question, here's brief UTQG rating comparison (for those who don't know - UTQG treadwear number shows hardness/softness of a tire... the softer the tire, the smaller the number. The letter following the rubber hardness refers to its traction, AA is the highest rating.):

Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera - Pirelli P-Zero Corsa - 140 AA
Porsche 911 GT3 - Michelin Pilot Sport Cup - 80 AA
Porsche 911 Turbo - Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 - 220 AA
Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06 - Goodyear Supercar EMT - 220 AA
Nissan GTR - Bridgestone Potenza RE070R - 140 AA
Honda NSX-R - Bridgestone Potenza RE070s - 140 AA

As i said, GTR's Potenzas aren't that much better than you can find within other supercars. So please quit blabbing the car is so fast because of the super-sticky tires.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by toffytofik Back to the tire question, here's brief UTQG rating comparison (for those who don't know - UTQG treadwear number shows hardness/softness of a tire... the softer the tire, the smaller the number. The letter following the rubber hardness refers to its traction, AA is the highest rating.): Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera - Pirelli P-Zero Corsa - 140 AA Porsche 911 GT3 - Michelin Pilot Sport Cup - 80 AA Porsche 911 Turbo - Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 - 220 AA Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06 - Goodyear Supercar EMT - 220 AA Nissan GTR - Bridgestone Potenza RE070R - 140 AA Honda NSX-R - Bridgestone Potenza RE070s - 140 AA As i said, GTR's Potenzas aren't that much better than you can find within other supercars. So please quit blabbing the car is so fast because of the super-sticky tires.

The Bridgestone Potenza RE070R is a new tyre.. and even the older RE070's were known to be supersoft extreme sport tyre... the idea of a RunFlat this soft was unheard of... which is why Nissan asked Bidgestone to make one.

And the difference between a 220 and a 140 tyre is HUGE - HUGE. The Ferrari F50 cam with GoodYear SuperCar F1 Fiorano's of 220 rating - and let me tell you, they are a pretty hard 220... harder than the 220 rated Supercar F1 of today - but they were pretty amazing tyres for their day.

Not only that, but the UTQG rating is a self imposed number that is a relative number assigned by the manufacturer - a number assigned to denote the wear rating relative to the control tyre used in the test.

So - a 100 wear rating rating would mean the tyre in quesiton wore at the same rate as the test tyre, a 200 rating would mean wore twice as slowly. The UTQG ratings are a better choice for comparing between a companies own tyre range, and cross manufacturer comparisons need to take this into consideraiton.

It is a well known fact and quite accepted in knowledgable circles that the "220" Michelin assigns to the PS2 is oddly a "softer" 220 than the 220 assigned by Goodyear to the SC (as an exxample) - and that the 140 Pirelli assigns to the Corsa is a little misleading - that tyre is very soft, more like other manufacturers 100's.

Again - tyres are EVERYTHING - if they were not, then people would not swap the 220 rated PS2's for the supersoft Corsas, or the velcro drums known as Sportcups.

Tyres are everything.

[toffytofik]

^
RE070Rs aren't that new apparently. Those on the GTR are indeed new nitrogen filled RFT's, other than that they seem to be very similar to the basic RE070s which were used as the stock tires for NSX-R in 2002 and all STI's since 2004 and have the same 140AA rating.
As for P-Zero Corsa, i've come up with two numbers while searching for it's UTQG - 60 and 140 and had no idea which one is correct for Superleggera'. Now i double checked, more likely it's fitted with P-Zero Corsa Asimmetrico 60AA rated R-compounds.

And yeah, 140s are 1.6 times softer than 220 - the difference is notable. To get a really fair comparison between the cars first of all you have to have them fitted with the same quality rubber.

[toffytofik]

Oh, and don't forget that most of the rwd supercars have WIDER tires, hence high overall grip even if they're harder than those of GTR. So that grip advantage argument is really doubtful.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by toffytofik Oh, and don't forget that most of the rwd supercars have WIDER tires, hence high overall grip even if they're harder than those of GTR. So that grip advantage argument is really doubtful.

The supercomputers that make up the AWD system on the GTR are able to use a lot more available grip than if the car had Dunlop Superslip No-Grips.

It has not been untli the last half decade or so that "street cars" needed race spec rubber to exploit their potential on the street.

This is the difference between marketing a large spectrum car and a single focuses car.

Nissan chose to exploit all facets to put on sale a "911 Turbo beater" - however, in so doing they crossed that barrier between "general" audiance, and "niche" audience.

Not how the 911 Turbo is sold with street tyres, while the GT3 RS is sold with street-legal track tyres.

The point is simply that the GTR achieves what it does by altering the variables that other manufacturers didnt bother changing for their general consumption audiences.

You might note the difference between the tyres Dodge provides with the ACR and the "regular" SRT/10... 220 PS2's vs 80 Sportcups.

This in and of itself would make a direct comparison between sya the 911 Turbo and the ACR pointless... the one starts with actual race rubber as used in certain class racing while the other starts with regular produciton high mileage tyres.

I find int very strange that the GTR fanbrigade cannot see these truths for what they are.

The GTR is only able to do what it does, because of the tyres it ships with.

Lets see what a GTR with 220 rated PS2's does to end this argument

[04RCSTI]

I love my RE070's What's left of them anyway.... I wish I had RE01R's...Azeni RT615's for the spring track season though. Too bad we cant put that huge a tire in the limited space we get in the STI's without having to roll or modify our fenders. 255/40/17 all around coming... any other suggestions would be gladly heard, but the azenis are cheaaaap.

I think the GT-R is all about giving the driver the best tools that it can, if tires are part of that then they are part of the package. RC, you can't argue that these tires don't COME on the car, they do so they arent "modified" to get the performance. If you start knocking the car for coming with the tires that were necessary to make it handle as well as they saw fit, then I think you're running out of arguments.

It was underrated in power and comes with sticky tires. Its got a techy awd system and a relatively good chassis. I think that if it didn't have all that extra weight, it wouldn't just beat the porsches, it would demolish them. So look at it this way, the rest of the marks are just lucky that the beating isn't that painful.

Just accept that the GT-R is the god of all cars RC

[RC45]

Originally Posted by 04RCSTI Just accept that the GT-R is the god of all cars RC

Only while the tyres are new and the gizzmos are turned on

10 laps later the beached whale will just be a rolling roadblock for the rest of us

Remember, the same systems that allow the GTR to be so fast out the gate by going to the limits of adhesions, will be the same systems that slow the car down significantly as the tyres go off and traction goes away - after all, they are designed to keep you at the limits of adhesion

Eventually Isaac Newton wins.. you can keep him busy for a while, but eventually he wins... he always does