My gun collection.

[Mattk]

You still have not given a valid reason for someone to invade my space.

I never said it was OK. I simply said that it's not OK to kill people. But in any case, like I also said, simply brandishing a weapon in the face of a burglar will work pretty effectively.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by Mattk I never said it was OK. I simply said that it's not OK to kill people. But in any case, like I also said, simply brandishing a weapon in the face of a burglar will work pretty effectively.

Why is it not ok to kill someone who invades my home?

And "simply brandishing a weapon in the face of a burglar" just means he knows you are not prepared to shoot and will be an easy mark next time.

[Mattk]

^Ah, but isn't the fact that people all have guns a deterrant? You said so yourself. Also, if he comes back with reinforcements and weapons, it makes it legitimate to shoot and kill. Killing someone just because he happened to break into your house is just disproportionate. You need more than that.

[hail_of_contraband]

Why do you feel such a need to kill someone? I mean if it was me or him, i'd consider it.
If i was stumbling around in the dark, at 3am, half asleep still, but with adrenaline pumping through my veins who knows what could happen, or who i would hit if i shot a round, or even a single bullet.
I just don't get it, the way you talk it's almost as if you are praying for this guy to break into your house, just so you can kill him. I can see the image in your head, you're upstairs in your bed, sound a sleep next to your partner, you hear a fumbling around in your loungeroom, you slowly unhook you gun from it's holster on the bed post. You sneek down stairs, and see that man (i'm not going to describe anything other than the gender), you say "Put it down muthaf***er", then, "Bang, bang, bang".
But let me tell a different narrative to the one in your head. After the even, you look at the body, things weren't as clear as you thought. You're kid has started to sleep walk, and you didn't know, they didn't have the tv, it was a dark image in front of them, they were stumbling around, and you shot your kid.
I understand that you feel it gives you safety, and maybe in times such as what are currently happening in Texas and the south with the hurricanes further vigilance is needed. Maybe.
But you as an individual, RC45 seem to fantasize about it. You may feel different, but that is what comes across. An excitement at the prospect of ending the life of some desperate person. Who knows what happened to them in their life, why they are in your house, there are so many billions of paths individuals can take.
I just hope for your sake that one day in your excitement you don't shoot someone you care about, or someone you care about shoots you. I really hope this doesn't happen to you, or anyone else. It would be such a tragic thing to happen.
All the best in the furtherance of your life RC

[RC45]

Originally Posted by Mattk ^Ah, but isn't the fact that people all have guns a deterrant? You said so yourself. Also, if he comes back with reinforcements and weapons, it makes it legitimate to shoot and kill. Killing someone just because he happened to break into your house is just disproportionate. You need more than that.

WHy would you need more than that?

I am guessing you have never been the victim of a crime, especially not a crime in your home - or have never known anyone who's home has been invaded.
If you did or had you would have a very different view.

Your home is supposed to be yours, your safe haven, your safe place, your domain - in short, your castle.

Again, why should anyone else be allowed to enter at their will, take your possesions or terrorise your family?

Again - why are you peacenicks always giving the benefit o fthe doubt to the criminal, but never the victim?

Wy should a person have to wait fo rthe follow up attack or retribution? Oh - thats right - the criminal is the one with the protected rights.. not the victim.

Originally Posted by hail_of_contraband Why do you feel such a need to kill someone? I mean if it was me or him, i'd consider it.

Who said I have a need to kill someone? I clearly said if someone enters my house uninvited I would have no qualms killing them.

Originally Posted by hail_of_contraband If i was stumbling around in the dark, at 3am, half asleep still, but with adrenaline pumping through my veins who knows what could happen, or who i would hit if i shot a round, or even a single bullet.

Interesting that you would be stumbling around half asleep with adrenaline pumping through your veins - the adreneline would by its nature wake you up ready to fight or flight.

Originally Posted by hail_of_contraband I just don't get it, the way you talk it's almost as if you are praying for this guy to break into your house, just so you can kill him.

WHy would anyone pray to have their house broken into? I am guessing you have never been the victim of a crime - and have no idea what it feels like to have the sanctity of your home violated.

Originally Posted by hail_of_contraband I can see the image in your head, you're upstairs in your bed, sound a sleep next to your partner, you hear a fumbling around in your loungeroom, you slowly unhook you gun from it's holster on the bed post. You sneek down stairs, and see that man (i'm not going to describe anything other than the gender), you say "Put it down muthaf***er", then, "Bang, bang, bang".

Actually - in my version, I would have flicked on the light switch, *BOOM* *BOOM* *BOOM* -- then yelled "FREEZE MuthaF***er!!!"

Originally Posted by hail_of_contraband But let me tell a different narrative to the one in your head. After the even, you look at the body, things weren't as clear as you thought. You're kid has started to sleep walk, and you didn't know, they didn't have the tv, it was a dark image in front of them, they were stumbling around, and you shot your kid.

Except the light switched on clearly showed it was not "my kid" - but rather a career criminal.

Originally Posted by hail_of_contraband I understand that you feel it gives you safety, and maybe in times such as what are currently happening in Texas and the south with the hurricanes further vigilance is needed. Maybe.

Has nothing to do with "the hurricanes" - it thas to do with the sanctity of my home and the fact the law does not require me to retreat in my own home.

Originally Posted by hail_of_contraband But you as an individual, RC45 seem to fantasize about it. You may feel different, but that is what comes across. An excitement at the prospect of ending the life of some desperate person. Who knows what happened to them in their life, why they are in your house, there are so many billions of paths individuals can take.

See - righ tthere your sympathy is for the criminal. Why?

WHy should I or anyone else have anything but disdane for that person whom has decided to break into someone elses home?

Just because they are shitfaced loser with a crack habit or a career criminal I or anyone else should feel sorry for them? So - what about the thousands of victims of violent crime around the world?

Do you recall the prominant murder of the US Volleyball coaches father in law? That is the reality of violent criminal acts - by their very nature they show the person has no desire to fucntion within society.

Why should someone who invades a home be given achance to "rehabilitate"? There is thankfully a clear message in many US states.. and it is simply that if you decide to enter anothers home with criminal intent, you may be carried out in a bodybag - and the homeowner/tenant will not be the criminal.

Originally Posted by hail_of_contraband I just hope for your sake that one day in your excitement you don't shoot someone you care about, or someone you care about shoots you.

Spoken like a true anti-gun person. There is no excitement involved - and it is quite clear when the person entering your home is doing so to attack or rob you.

Originally Posted by hail_of_contraband I really hope this doesn't happen to you, or anyone else. It would be such a tragic thing to happen.

I am a little confused how you imagine this would happen - I mean you are the one with the bizarre fantasy about people creeping around gunning down sleep walking family members getting some milk from the fridge.

Originally Posted by hail_of_contraband All the best in the furtherance of your life RC

And all the best to you, but rest assured if you decide to take up home burglarising as a career, choose a place that does not have a Castle Doctrine Law

Some further reading for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine

[hail_of_contraband]

Oh, ok. RC45 you are right about everything. I am a bleeding heart "liberal", i think the criminal always has the right. That's what you want to hear from me right?
I'm an idiot, guns are the best way. You are aware that the US has the highest rate of killings by guns in the western world. Maybe that could be because of the relaxed gun laws. Maybe the US is just a cookpot for crack-heads that want to prey on your family. It's probably the second.
I never said i had symathy for just the person within your house. Yes that person is in your house, yes he is making off with your plasma, but most criminals will run if you flick the lights on.
What i said about the adrenaline was that it was just after you woke up from being half asleep. I understand it's effects on the human body, as i am also a human, just like you, yeah, i am. Should have been clearer, the effect on the person can be confusion.
And i hope that everything goes the way it is planned in your head. I'm not going to bother trying to imagine it, obviously i can not do that. We come from vastly different ideals.
I said the way it comes across from you, the way you talk about it, you seem very, very excited at the prospect. I also said maybe that is not the way it is in your mind, but that is how it comes across to me at least. To me it sounds like you've already been through it a thousand times in your head, and the idea excites you. You see, when you publish something, whether it be on an internet forumn, a magazine, or a book, the words that are contained within that are open to the intepretation of the reader. But don't worry, the same goes for me, so turn the words i say into whatever you want. But whatever man, believe whatever you want. Neither of us are right anyway. Who is to judge who is right in any society? (and i know you will answer this, it's why it is here for you).
This shall be my last correspondence with you, as you seem like you have made your mind up about everything, and you are already right. Let's hope for your sake you are, because it's not so great being down here with the rest of us, constantly being wrong.
And once again, i will wish you all the best, and hope those good gun laws don't bite you fair in the arse.
Love your fellow human being (whether you like it or not)

[nthfinity]

Who is to judge who is right in any society?

uh oh...

Lets answer this by first asking a different question.

Based on what principals are people judged wrong in society?

This is a question our founders, and others through history have also asked; and will continue to ask long after we are dust.

Our society is founded on core beliefs that individuals have rights; that is, every individual has rights. At some point, the rights of one individual will conflict with teh rights of another; this is where LAW and Enforcement comes to play. To protect the rights of the individual whom is not infringing on the offender.

Castle doctrine has long existed here, however, it has been far more limited in the last 100 years then it was prior.

This is allows the individual to not only to have life, liberty, and to pursue happiness, but to also protect his life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness that he has chosen.

That is what is right, and good.

In our times, people see guns as "barbaric" and castle doctrine as "trigger happy" and "needless killing" often enough. However, in the plight of our times, we live in reality, where we must apply theory in practice. This means that the immediate call to first responders does not allow the time to adequately protect oneself by means of another. The gun owner IS the first responder, and the first line of defense to his home (family, and person), and possessions.

I am proud to say that a relative shot a burgler 50 years ago in his home late at night. The burgler managed to get away; he never came back, nor was there any additional instances. That relative had children in the home, as well as a wife.

Months ago, an aquaintence was in an attempted car-jacking at gun point. The would-be car jacker was shot dead immediately by the said aquaintence who had only just gotten a CPL weeks earlier. Trigger happy? No. He had buisness on to regularly conduct in a rotten side of town. His wife was with him.

The second somebody does the wrong thing, as determined by the rule of law; they have no rights, or limited rights. Desperate situations call for greater than equal means of action.

That is what is right, and what is wrong; clearly, some time pondering on the subject would yield benefits to your psyche

[RC45]

Originally Posted by hail_of_contraband Oh, ok. RC45 you are right about everything. I am a bleeding heart "liberal", i think the criminal always has the right. That's what you want to hear from me right? I'm an idiot, guns are the best way. You are aware that the US has the highest rate of killings by guns in the western world. Maybe that could be because of the relaxed gun laws. Maybe the US is just a cookpot for crack-heads that want to prey on your family. It's probably the second. I never said i had symathy for just the person within your house. Yes that person is in your house, yes he is making off with your plasma, but most criminals will run if you flick the lights on. What i said about the adrenaline was that it was just after you woke up from being half asleep. I understand it's effects on the human body, as i am also a human, just like you, yeah, i am. Should have been clearer, the effect on the person can be confusion. And i hope that everything goes the way it is planned in your head. I'm not going to bother trying to imagine it, obviously i can not do that. We come from vastly different ideals. I said the way it comes across from you, the way you talk about it, you seem very, very excited at the prospect. I also said maybe that is not the way it is in your mind, but that is how it comes across to me at least. To me it sounds like you've already been through it a thousand times in your head, and the idea excites you. You see, when you publish something, whether it be on an internet forumn, a magazine, or a book, the words that are contained within that are open to the intepretation of the reader. But don't worry, the same goes for me, so turn the words i say into whatever you want. But whatever man, believe whatever you want. Neither of us are right anyway. Who is to judge who is right in any society? (and i know you will answer this, it's why it is here for you). This shall be my last correspondence with you, as you seem like you have made your mind up about everything, and you are already right. Let's hope for your sake you are, because it's not so great being down here with the rest of us, constantly being wrong. And once again, i will wish you all the best, and hope those good gun laws don't bite you fair in the arse. Love your fellow human being (whether you like it or not)

Ahhh - but it was ok when you were trying to enforce your view as the right one... but now when faced with the fact that this is not my view at all, but rather a 'consensused' rule of the land (and that many of these laws were in place LONG before "the US had more gun killings than any other western country") you simply choose the cop out route. - it's ok - I won't shoot you for that.

The fact that a higher total number of reported crimes may well indicate a better rate of crime REPORTING and policing rather than an actual higher crime rate seems to be quietly ignored.

BTW - how sure are you we come from "vastly different ideals" - you have no idea where I come from - just where I am living. (and it seems you aren't too proud of your locaiton, or you might hve filled out your profile)

Anywhoooo - I would rather take my chances with the gun-filled streets of red-neck hilly billy America than sit 5 seconds in the bleachers with a drunken brawling throng of soccer thugs

[79TA]

Originally Posted by Mattk ^Ah, but isn't the fact that people all have guns a deterrant? You said so yourself. Also, if he comes back with reinforcements and weapons, it makes it legitimate to shoot and kill. Killing someone just because he happened to break into your house is just disproportionate. You need more than that.

Disproportionate response isn't really the issue. The innocent owner's safety is. People don't just shoot because they can. Usually, if they do, they had reason or at least thought they did, so their actions are justified. People don't "just happen" to break into houses. Part of the reason that guns are such a great deterrent is the fact that they can legally be used for their intended purpose in the name of home defense. Thieves have no contrived rights to hide behind.

[dkly007]

Heyz FoxFour,

How much does each firearm weight?
Also what's the next item on your collector's list?

[Mattk]

If they fear for their safety, then no-one's going to blame them for shooting a burglar. But that threshhold must be passed. A pretty darned easy threshhold, if you ask me. Even the Castle Doctrine has a number of threshholds, including that one.

Oh - thats right - the criminal is the one with the protected rights.. not the victim.

This coming from the only country in the world where everyone has a right to a lawyer.

[FoxFour]

Originally Posted by dkly007 Heyz FoxFour, How much does each firearm weight? Also what's the next item on your collector's list?

I think the PS-90 weighs about 6 lbs. The AK is the heaviest, I would say 8 to 12 lbs.
The FN FiveSeveN pistol weighs about 19 oz. The Ruger SR-9 is about 26 oz. and the little Kel Tec, that weighs about 9 oz.
My next purchase I am expecting today or tomorrow. I ordered an FN FS2000 carbine. I will post pics when I get it.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by Mattk If they fear for their safety, then no-one's going to blame them for shooting a burglar. But that threshhold must be passed. A pretty darned easy threshhold, if you ask me. Even the Castle Doctrine has a number of threshholds, including that one.

You might want to conduct further research...

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodo...l/SB00378I.htm

There is no "threshhold" to pass, unless you determine the threshhold to be in its simplest form, you are entitld to be where you are and there is a person attempting to burglarise said location. It would appear that the law has already stated that the act of burglary is "violent and threatening enough" to justify deadly force.

Matt, sorry to say. no amount of posturing on this one is going to make you any more correct.

The law is written to clearly state that you are entitled to defend you property OR person with deadly force. There is no need to have assessed a proportionality, or assessed the aggrievessness of the crime - its simple, if you are entitled to be there the criminal better be prepared to die for their crime.

Originally Posted by Mattk This coming from the only country in the world where everyone has a right to a lawyer.

Just because you are entitled to a lawyer, does nto mean you are not guilty - the fact you are laying face down in a pool of your blood on my living room floor pretty much serves as your confession.

[caru]

Having guns is in your constitution....
In Finland we tend to change our laws when they're in need. Constitution is checked at regular basis to make sure it hasn't aged too much and that it'll be there for what we want it to be - to protect us.
With guns everywhere you can't protect yourselves obviously.

[Corgi]

The only thing better than shootin' guns is doin' donuts in my F150 yeeee haw!