Chris Bangle Vindicated?

[ae86_16v]

What do you guys think? I have read several articles lately (after the Detriot Motor Show) stated that time has proven him right. Numerous car markers now are copying his style. Lexus' L-Finess, the new S Class's trunk, the new Camry, etc. etc. etc.

You see more and more cars now with creased lines and sharper cut offs. The unconventional has become the conventional now.

Personally for me, the new BMWs have definitely grown on me. I hated all of them with the exception of the Z4 which Flaming Surface worked well on a small car. But now, I kind of like all of them to an extent. I find myself looking at the E63 6 Series more and more. The E90 330i looks better than its other counter parts (maybe with the except of the B7 A4). And the facelifted E65 7 Series doesn't look half-bad. The E60 5 Series looks very "symmetrical" w/ matching front and rear lights, cool in that respect.

I don't know, I can't believe I am even contemplating this .

[iraghava]

I agree with you completely ae86 the acceptance for Bangle's designs is increasing by every passing day and as you correctly mention you can see inspirations from his designs in various cars nowadays with the most notable being the S-class.

I have always liked Bangle's designs and in darker colours with large wheels they really look absolutely stunning. When he had started this design direction there was a lot criticism for him from fellow designers too but now even they along with the rest of the press are realizing that the designs might not be to everyone's likings but they sure are appealing to a lot of people and that can be seen in BMW's steadily increasing sales. I think one of the reasons for making the 7-series a controversial shape was to give it a different identity in a market till then completely dominated by the S-class and in my opinion the risk worked out.

Recently I read an article in one of the car mags that even acclaimed designer's are realizing that his designs are very good and have given BMW a completely unique design direction. I will try and find the article and post it here.

[sivsk]

iraghava wrote

I have always liked Bangle's designs and in darker colours with large wheels they really look absolutely stunning. When he had started this design direction there was a lot criticism for him from fellow designers too but now even they along with the rest of the press are realizing that the designs might not be to everyone's likings but they sure are appealing to a lot of people and that can be seen in BMW's steadily increasing sales. I think one of the reasons for making the 7-series a controversial shape was to give it a different identity in a market till then completely dominated by the S-class and in my opinion the risk worked out.

You are totally right, when bangle started a new direction for BMW to take it opened alot of eyes, and stirred a debate on whether or not this was a good way, and actually gave BMW a mini headache after receiving critism for the new 7, after which they quickly in-terms of BMw, gave it a small facelift. The 5 when it first came out also looked a little different...... but it grows on you, the 6 and Z4 are great to look at, as others have said by others on this subject it was a bold step to take, but it has given BMW a definate identity, which others are starting to copy, the camry was mentioned, which is so striking a reflection of a bangle cue...... Slowly but truely the market is reacting positively to these new breeds of BMW, and the E90 is starting to make it's mark, and when the colour and wheel combo is right it looks amazing.......

[Shinigami]

You'll always find design idea from other makers being used on cars here and there.

But the bangle look is something which is in force atm due to people wanting more ferocious looking cars.

There's still a lot of people who utterly detest the new BMW look. Just last week one of the marketing chicks at work saw the new Z4 that belongs to another colleague of mine, and the first thing she said was "that is so UGLY!".

You really can't please everyone *shrug*

[dutchmasterflex]

I was always with Bangle from the beggining... His style was headed towards the future, and yet not that radical for the current time..

I know 10 years from now the E60 5-series will still look "young" or "new"...

His styling also fits BMW IMO.. aggressive styling, beautiful design..

[RC45]

Bangle started nothing.

The way everything looks like a Civic today you would think Honda created a trend.. no they simply flooded the market with boring plain lines, and because they had cheap reliable cars, people bought them.

The reason there are millions on the road is because of this fact, not the design.

Now that there are millions on the roads, other car designers feel obligated to offer Civic lookalikes.

The same for the Bangle crap.

They are not being accepted - they are simply everywhere, and you have no choice.. if you like BMW you are obligated to by a crap looking Bangle design.

[Just_me]

Originally Posted by RC45 They are not being accepted - they are simply everywhere, and you have no choice.. if you like BMW you are obligated to by a crap looking Bangle design.

lol Rc still thinking you are right and everyone is wrong. If you were a president everyone would be forced to think like you do or we would all be in jail

[Just_me]

Good post about design from the germans...

"Audi is really on an interesting roll nowadays. They have a clean design language that shows the source of their inspiration more than any other Car design studio. You can clearly see the architectural influence in their interiors and exteriors. I think Audi do look most modern than any other cars on the market right now.
The single frame grill was a great step forward to give their cars an identity they badly needed. The problem is that it get the attention of the beholder too much than needed, so that all Audis look at first sight identical. Audi seem to have realized this at an early stage and tried to reduce that effect by making the single frame grill smaller and smaller with every new model they released. The first model with that new grill was the A8 W12, which has the biggest single frame grill of all Audi models. Then came the A6 with a slightly smaller one and then the A3 Sportsback with a smaller one that the A6’s, followed by the face lifted A4 with the smallest grill. Of course one of the possible theories to interpret this is that the size of the grill is put in a proportional relativity to the size of the vehicle. My interpretation however is that Audi was trying to decrease the amount of attention caught by the new grill design and that by making it smaller and smaller so that the first read of the exterior design fall under the domination of the Single frame grill.

Audi’s singe frame is one of those design elements we see/will see copied by loads of other manufacturers, just like Mercedes’ “New Eyes” and BMW’s “Flame Surface”.

Mentioning BMW’s Flame Surface, I can’t talk about new design direction without stopping at the most influential design language nowadays.
Undoubtedly, BMW’s design language is the most interesting on the market right now. Bangle has –thank god- been very brave and brought more lively and interesting forms and shaped into the industry at a time it really needed to be fostered. IMO this whole Flame Surface thing did not start with the 7-Series, which wasn’t really that special to me, like e.g. the W220 S-class which revolutionized the whole luxury class, including the 7-series. Apart from the rear, the irrespectively so-called Bangle-Butt the car didn’t really have any revolutionary design elements –objectively speaking. Even the rear wasn’t really that original. We’ve already seen a variation of this rear design in the Maybach Concept of 1997 designed by Murat Guenak (I think) with its raised boot lid and outstanding shoulder lines.
For me, the Flame Surface design language was first demonstrated when the Z4 came out. No other BMW could express this direction better that the Z4, till today IMO. The car is just simply amazing and I’m extremely jealous!
The 5er was another good example for the new direction. The modelled hood in Zeppelin style and the dynamic front design emphasize the complexity of the surface design that forms one of the most important characteristics of the Flame Surface design language.

Certainly, BMW’s design language is very dominant and influential. Some people think that since the presentation of the 7er, which was the kick-off of all the discussions and debates about Bangle’s capability, almost all car manufacturers have started to copy BMW’s style and design their cars using Flame Surface technology. These people include respectable design studios with great history of leading the automotive design industry in terms of styling and originality.

Now to be honest, I myself was one of these people. Not with BMW but with MB. I always thought that all design studios copied Mercedes. Now, having grown up and gained some knowledge about car design (viva internet!), I like to talk about derivation and inspiration rather than talking about who copied whom.

As we all know, design is a process, which take years from the initial sketches to the final renderings and 3D models. When you start sketching and collecting ideas for a new design, you take a look around. A good designer doesn’t look at other cars, but at all kinds of objects surrounding him/her to gain impressions and inspirations for shapes and lines that he/she could use, modify or develop further to come out with a new form. This is basically how a designer starts. This first sketches that visualize all the inspiration he collected from his environment is not the end, but the beginning. They start to develop these sketches further. They draw more and more and more. And that is what I mean with derivation here.
There are millions of inspiration sources around us. And if we will or not, as designers you always are a victim of “realistic proportions” such as head room and wheel sizes, which lead the result of all cars having very similar proportions. What I’m trying to say here is that now matter what the source of your inspiration as a designer was, you are forced to come up with a shape that should be practical and realistic. And that also leads to similarities. The final design may look very similar, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s a copy. It can be derivated from very different shapes and lines. There are millions of ways to develop a shape to get to another. I can show you at least 20 different ways of how to develop a normal rear to a “Bangle-Butt”. So final similarity isn’t an evidence of copying. And I’m here not only talking about “copying” BMW, but about this issue in general. The funny thing about that is the designers themselves cannot recognize the similarities at first sight. Why? Because they’ve been there during the whole process of design and now what the sources of inspiration was and what shapes and lines they derivated their final designs from. I’ve read many times comment on my own design saying that they remind them of some other cars. And I think: *** are they talking about? Because I know that I didn’t have the car they mention in mind at all when I started working on this design.

Though that doesn’t mean that there are no copies, but I’m responding to people who mix things up. The Flame Surface is a strong and dominant style no doubt. The best examples for that are some new cars, that were not designed or produced by BMW but are 100%-ly “flame surfaced”. Hint: New Toyota Yaris Sedan.
"

[ae86_16v]

Originally Posted by RC45 Bangle started nothing. [Truncated] They are not being accepted - they are simply everywhere, and you have no choice.. if you like BMW you are obligated to by a crap looking Bangle design.

Originally Posted by Shinigami You'll always find design idea from other makers being used on cars here and there. But the bangle look is something which is in force atm due to people wanting more ferocious looking cars. There's still a lot of people who utterly detest the new BMW look. Just last week one of the marketing chicks at work saw the new Z4 that belongs to another colleague of mine, and the first thing she said was "that is so UGLY!". You really can't please everyone *shrug*

BMW Traditionalist was always against the new designs. But the general public always accepted the designs. And you could see that from the sales. Now it might be the Civic factor that RC mention because they are really good cars, or it could be the design. Most people would still buy a BMW because it is a BMW, not for the way they drive or anything, e.g. Yuppies.

Records sales year after year. Fact that can't be denied.

Originally Posted by dutchmasterflex I was always with Bangle from the beggining... His style was headed towards the future, and yet not that radical for the current time.. I know 10 years from now the E60 5-series will still look "young" or "new"... His styling also fits BMW IMO.. aggressive styling, beautiful design..

That was one of my compliants against him. Sure the new ones look radical and fresh (didn't say they look good though ), but will it look good 10 years from now?

The E36 w/ M Aerokit looks great today! Even a clean E30 will turn heads. And the E46 will always look great with it's classic BMW styling. Likewise could be said for the E34 and E39 5 Series.

But will the E60 or E90 do the same ten years from now?

[yg60m]

BMW dare to change almost radically of style and it proves to succed, I had strong doubts but finally I like all the new BMW, except the X3 that I don't like even after seing many of them ...

[taygunho]

I always like Bangle style. I think E90 3 series and E60 5 series are very good car and their design is much better than other companies. MOst of mercedes looks old persons car and it makes me boring. Only SL klasse looks fine to me. Audi has a good design also. They didn't make any ugly or boring car IMO but they don't get you exicited when you first saw one of their models. I don't like new civic and I hope Honda would never produce a car that has same design style.

[yg60m]

BMW dare to change almost radically of style and it proves to succed, I had strong doubts but finally I like all the new BMW, except the X3 that I don't like even after seing many of them ...

[irrational_i]

Originally Posted by RC45 Bangle started nothing. The way everything looks like a Civic today you would think Honda created a trend.. no they simply flooded the market with boring plain lines, and because they had cheap reliable cars, people bought them. The reason there are millions on the road is because of this fact, not the design. Now that there are millions on the roads, other car designers feel obligated to offer Civic lookalikes. The same for the Bangle crap. They are not being accepted - they are simply everywhere, and you have no choice.. if you like BMW you are obligated to by a crap looking Bangle design.

Fully agree with you there..
And if I am not mistaken Bangle started everything with the BMW Z8.
I used to hate it when the high bootlines came in around the mid-80's and you know what, I still do. It may be practical, but it still looks crap.
Now we go for high noses. Soon all cars will look like vans bacause its practical and easy to manufacture.

Speaking of high bootlines. Don't you think it amusing that cars are becoming bigger for luggage and passengers, yet technology strives to make everything smaller? :)

[dutchmasterflex]

One thing I just realized is that I love all BMW designs, from all generations.. Too me, they are all timeless.. The E21, E30 are still one of the cars I dream of...

[r2r]

A Great topic ae86_16v

First off, BMW had no choice but to drastically change the designs of their cars ( they reached the point where they couldn't keep smoothing out the shape of their current cars any longer)

I have personally sat through one of the lectures that Chris Bangle had to discuss the reasons behind the change of the design of their cars. It was an obvious reason, they wanted to have their cars stand out from the rest because they felt like they were becoming too much like the other car manufacturers.

To stand out from the massive crowed of all the car manufacturers, you have to take risks that you know you might fail in, and BMW did just that. Did they succeed 100%, of course not.

The 7 series was a bit too much for everybody, so it was understandable that BMW redesigned it after a short time it was out. Personally I don't like neither the 7 series trunk nor the ridiculously overdone 5 series headlights. Could they have done it a bit better, yes. Will we call the 5 or 7 series a classics ten years from now, I think not.

However I do like the z4 and the 6 series and I think BMW is on the right track to succeed, although I will have to wait and see the new M3 to say that for sure.

In my opinion BMW succeeded in more ways then one. First they definitely got themselves noticed, their cars stand out from others, and they are selling them.