Structure of educational system

[graywolf624]

Recent discussions in some of my classes coupled with my own ventures has left me wondering about the differences in formal educational systems between countries, particularlly in terms of years and focus of study. What is it like in your country? What is your personal level of education?

In the US we have 12 years of primary/high school education.
From there most people go to college, which actually is 2 choices.
A 2 year associates degree/technical school
or
A 4 year bachloers degree which has a focus but also covers alot of broad things as well that might be used in that field of study. The focus is called a major, and in general you can have an additional second specialty that isnt as large called a minor. You can also get a dual degree which is basically 2 degrees at once.

From there still fewer choose to go to graduate school of which there are 2 types:
academic based (exs: masters arts in economics)
or
Professional based (exs: masters in business administration).
This level takes between 1-3 years and is focused on that area.

From there we go to phd which seems to take about 3-4 years and requires a research paper.

I personally have a bachloers and am half way complete a professional masters degree(so 17 years of schooling with my current path taking me to 18 years.)

[gucom]

in Holland: from 4yo: 8 years of primary school. then based on results, the following options:
-VMBO(4 years): lowest level (with different gradations) preparing for: MBO: mostly manual labour and light(er) administrative duties, and doctors assistents etc. usually between 2 and 4 years/
-HAVO(5 years): more theoretical than VMBO, prepares for: HBO, where you can get a bachelor (which is what im doing right now, im in my 1st year). bachelor takes 4 years usually. its possible to go on for Master afterwards, in 1 or 2 years (at university)
-VWO(6 years): Prepares for: WO (University), you can get a WO bachelor&Master (bachelor after 3, master after 4 years)

hope i made it clear...

[No.1]

Here's my thoughts on the UK education system

From the age of 4, you attend primary school (compulsory) until age 11, studying the national curriculum. At 11, kids usually sit SATs tests... not that challenging, but a higher level can be entered if the teacher/kid thinks they can get a better qualification.

Secondary Education from 11 to 16, where years 1-3 follow the National Curriculum also, and then Years 10 and 11 are spent studying for GCSEs. Usually 10 are taken, and there are various exam boards and specifications to choose from. There are many GCSEs to gain, but the usual are Maths/Eng Lang/Eng Lit/Physics/Chemistry/Biology/History/Geography/French/German/Spanish.. etc.
Grades range from A* to E (all passes)

This is the endo of compulsory education, but i stayed on to go to Sixth Form/College wher Years 12 and 13 are spenst studying 4-5 A Level subjects. Most are modular, with an exam in January, and two in summer. After Year 12, you have an AS-Level in each subject, and then generally continue with 3 A-Levels in year 13 (+ General studies).

Thers is a lot of Hoo Ha about exams getting easier over here, but thats not the case. THere are just not enough stretching questions to discriminate between a high level of learning, and a high level of aptitude for a subject

Of course, after A-Levels have been slated, more and more schools are opting to enter the International Baccalaureate, something i don't know that much about.

University is a stage further. There are the classic Russel Group unis (Oxford/Cambridge/UCL?Imperial college london etcc..) and the newer, less well respected universities.

It is difficult to get onto a competitive course, where a standard offer for a place will be AAB (A-Level results), but many of the new unis will take you on with substantially lower grades (lower than DDE). All education befoere university is free, unless you opt for an independent school (which we did), but university costs money. Typically £3000 per year tuition fees (as part of a loan from next year) and a £3000 student loan per year. Accomodation is a separate cost too.This will typically leave a student with a minimum £18000 debt after 3 years at uni, which will only begin to be reapyed after earning are greater than £10000 per annum. The loan is written off after 25 years whether payed off or not.

Other UKers can fill in the gaps

0X

[graywolf624]

£18000 debt after 3 years at uni

Actually that doesnt sound to bad... Education prices here differ whether you go to a private or public university/college. Publics differ depending on if you are in state or you go to another state.
For comparison sake, the top private schools can reach as high as 35000-40000 dollars a year for 4 years.
Public schools out of state generally are upwards of 20000 a year (this doesnt include living expenses). Public schools in state cost less then 10000 a year, maybe a little less.

All schools differ on price a bit but those are about average in my observations. The first 12 years are compulsary, after that you pay unless you get a scholarship(awarded for achievements or being a minority) where a company agrees to pay for part of your schooling or financial aide from the government(because your family doesnt make much money).

For comparison sake, Ive blown over 100000 USD in education (tuition alone) over the last 5 years as an out of state public school student. Thankfully not all of that came out of my pocket, though a considerable amount did.

[gucom]

in holland, up till 16 (altho that might've recently changed to 18?) the government pays for your education. After that its still mostly paid for, my parent are paying i believe 1700 euros or so for me this year(excluding books, accomodation etc, thats just for the study itself). I get a student loan of 75 euros a month, cos i live with my parents, none of my siblings study, and my parents earn a considerable amount of money (other ppl get more, depending on their situation). If i dont finish my study, or i dont make it in 10 years, i'll have to pay it back. im not planning to take more than 5 years though, 4 years bachelor and 1 year master(at university).

[No.1]

Originally Posted by graywolf624 £18000 debt after 3 years at uni Actually that doesnt sound to bad... Education prices here differ whether you go to a private or public university/college. Publics differ depending on if you are in state or you go to another state. For comparison sake, the top private schools can reach as high as 35000-40000 dollars a year for 4 years. Public schools out of state generally are upwards of 20000 a year (this doesnt include living expenses). Public schools in state cost less then 10000 a year, maybe a little less. All schools differ on price a bit but those are about average in my observations. The first 12 years are compulsary, after that you pay unless you get a scholarship(awarded for achievements or being a minority) where a company agrees to pay for part of your schooling or financial aide from the government(because your family doesnt make much money). For comparison sake, Ive blown over 100000 USD in education (tuition alone) over the last 5 years as an out of state public school student. Thankfully not all of that came out of my pocket, though a considerable amount did.

I wasn't saying £18k was a lot.... it just thats the minimum, you still have to pay for food/clothes/drinks/books/laptop/travel and everything else.

As for private schools, i have been at one for the past 7 years, and my sister went to one before me for seven years. My parents have spent well over £100k ($180k) on our education so far, and are set to add a further £30k each for University... You cannot put a price on a good education, and yes, we have had to make some sacrifices, but my parents want to give me the best start in life - a start that the state system fails to deliver currently.

On a side note - the government wants more than 50% of school leavers to go on to university, studying such courses as Surfing, Golf and other ridiculous courses. The 50% target may well be reached, but at what cost? The university recieves money from the Govt for each student it takes on so it makes sense for them to fill to over capacity, if the money still comes in. Standards drop as a result of too many pupils, and not enough staff, and there are an extra 10k people a year gaining a degree in Media Studies.... hardly an essential for any job :roll:

If i sound cynical, its because i am.

[graywolf624]

Well I think in the US and euro markets education post primary is almost required to succeed, but I also dont think things should be dumbed down, so I have to agree.
Thankfully there are so many different schools in America that the public schools while experiencing a little bit of grade inflation(that is grades being higher then they should be cause the classes are being made easier) still for the most part don't offer those type of classes. At least that was the case with my bachloers degree. Granted while Ive spent my entire life in public schools, the public schools Ive attended are among the best of all schools in the US and internationally, so experiences may vary.

[SFDMALEX]

Well Canada is basicly the same as States. Except here you get accepted to university based on your high school marks, no SATs etc...


In Ukraine it goes like this.

You go to Grade 1 at the age of 6/7.
Grade 1-4 is what you would call here is elementary school. Were you have one teacher,
Grades 5-12 are "High School". And during these years you study algebra, calculus, data managment, english, ukrainian grammar, ukrainian literature, physics, chemistry. All at the same time but more challenging material each year. For example in Ukraine you start geometric proofs etc in grade 6 whilst in Canada this is what students start doing in the final year of school. By the time you finish a Ukrainian school your math knowledge is that of a Canadian first year engineering student.
You do not get to choose any courses in high school. Everybody everywere learns the same material. Unless you want to take additional courses such as other languages many schools offer German, Polish and Russian. There are also free school independet centers were you can learn prograiming, arts, basic transistor based electronics etc.

The marking system is as follows: 2(fail), 3(satisfactory), 4(good), 5(exelent). Because you can put a plus and minus the actual system is out of 12, so 5+ is a 12. In conclusion in order to get an A you need to have a flawless test/essay/quiz...

In order to get into University you have oral and written exams. For engineering you would have to do a physics, math and two Ukrainian language exams one oral, one written. What do you need to get in? well at least two 5s, and two 4s, sometimes three 5s one 4.

University is free, unless its somehing like business school etc...

Once you are in university its pretty much the same as any other westren university.

Difficulty wise the Canadian pre secondary system is kids play in comparison to the post Soviet countries.


Having gone to school in both countries, I have to say that the North American system is utter shit, teaching method is horrid and not challenging (pre secondary that is).
The books here are bad, the teachers are useless.
I had an Discrete math teacher here who was an engineer...

In Ukraine in order to teach math you have to be a bachelor/major in pure math.
In order to teach physics you have to be a rocket scientist.

Here you have engineers gone to teachers college teaching math and scineces...

Also another thing. In Ukraine you study in the same class with the same kids from grade 1 through 12 together. And you have a "class director"(who is a teacher) who's responsibility is to monitor the students and the actions of that class.

Lets say the entire class is doing bad in one particular subject. The class directors job is to keep up the class average, so he/she has to review the teacher and find out the problem that is causing the class to do bad. She has the right to switch teachers who teacher his/her class.

Here the class can have a 40% average and no one gives a fuck, no one will point to the teacher as being the problem.


In conclusion the system in Ukraine is completly different from the one here, much harder but much better.

[graywolf624]

Well Canada is basicly the same as States.

I have to disagree based on your discription. Our education at the primary level varies on what school you go to and even what level you place you within the school(providing different education to different students). From very poor to some of the best in the world.

In general if its childs play in America by high school(11th and 12th grade) you are taking 1st year college courses. I took geometric proofs in 6th grade as well. I took calculus my last year of required classes. Our education for compulsary isnt as good as some, but we aren't as far behind as canada I guess. Granted what we lack in elementry we make up in some of the best colleges in the world(especially engineering). While I never had a 40 percent average for a class in high school, I have to ask if its really childs play if your not wrecking the curve with a 90 compared to the class.

Problems with the US education system are plenty, but I think the big one is not quality of educations, its dispersion of the funds and monitoring of the education ability of teachers.. Sort of a lack of national standards. For every school that puts out geniuses theres a matching school in the inner city where they spend more time trying not to be killed then learning.

Edit: Ironically recent rankings have Canada ranked top 6 ot 32 countries surveyed in reading, science, and mathematics.
Perhaps Canada suffers the same disproportionate spread America does and if you switched schools you would be better off. Oh and you've got me curious, why do you think having a teacher with a math degree rather then a teaching degree is best for early education? I would assume that basic algebra is simple enough that the teaching method is more important then the expert. Here we have experts at the college level(usually people with phds that spend most of their life doing advanced research) but just as you stated our early educators focus on the how of teaching. Everything up to (and including) calculus in high school didnt seem like it required a rocket scientist for teaching purposes, in fact judging by some experiences in college, the rocket scientist is sometimes so far advanced you can't learn the basics from them.

Anyway.. back on topic.

[SFDMALEX]

Originally Posted by graywolf624 While I never had a 40 percent average for a class in high school, I have to ask if its really childs play if your not wrecking the curve with a 90 compared to the class.

Who said I didnt have a 90? The Class average was a 40 Not my average.

Oh and you've got me curious, why do you think having a teacher with a math degree rather then a teaching degree is best for early education? I would assume that basic algebra is simple enough that the teaching method is more important then the expert. Here we have experts at the college level(usually people with phds that spend most of their life doing advanced research) but just as you stated our early educators focus on the how of teaching. Everything up to (and including) calculus in high school didnt seem like it required a rocket scientist for teaching purposes, in fact judging by some experiences in college, the rocket scientist is sometimes so far advanced you can't learn the basics from them.

Well its simple. Some of my teachers only knew what was in the their teachers book. THey read it to the class what was written in their book.
They didnt understand the math in and out. So when I come and ask questions such as "How did so and so come up with this theorem, what was it based on etc" I was told "you dont need to know that" while I know that they just dont know why.

Here we have a teacher teach algebra one year, and the next year he/she teaches physics.

Lets put it thit way, you dont need a rocket scientist but you need someone with a solid knowledge of the subject so he/she can go beyond whats in their teachers book.

Lets just say that I would be doing as good of a job teaching a grade 11 math class as some of the teachers I had, had I the teachers book.

My teachers didnt do jack shit for me mate. Everything I know is what I read in the books and online.

I didnt need to come to class at all because it did nothing for me. The teacher read whats in the book and thats about it.

Teachers here are incompetent. Period.

All I really had to come to school for was to get my assigments and write the tests.

[RC45]

I agree with Alex.

The South African system I went thoughsounds pretty much like the Ukranian system.

I do not ever remember taking a multiple choice in an exam, except as a 1 page offering during a 3 hour exam. Here in the US I note high schools basing an entire examinaiton on a mulitple choice with answers checked off on a form with a 2B pencil.

I remember my high school exams being a 400 point exam with 100 points based on fact based question, 100 being on therom and advanced concepts and perhaps anothe 50 multiple choice and then a final single question essay type answer for 150 points.

And the exam needed a 45% to pass (scrape through) - but you needing a 85%+ for a pass with distinction.

I also experienced the dedicated subject teachers - none of this switching roles mid year for no reason.

Another thing that I now look back ona and appreciate was the trict discipline South African public schools were allowed to meter out.

In school violence was not a common thing - and the idea of guns or other weapons at school was not even a concern.

Wearing a school uniform with long trousers and blazer and tie was also a great tool in leveling the playing field and getting across the message that school is for learning, not a fashoin show and popularity contest.

[graywolf624]

Here we have a teacher teach algebra one year, and the next year he/she teaches physics.

See we have different teachers every year here but they specialize in certain areas and so do the teaching parts of their degree. Different subjects must be taught differently. I've had one or 2 incompetent teachers, but by and large outside of humanities they've been relatively engaging. Then again I went to an above average school and even there we had a problem with the teachers union protecting incompetent teachers. So grain of salt.. If I had a choice I wouldnt send my kids to primary public school in America(it is too hit or miss on quality), but also if I had a choice theyd almost certainly go to an American University.

As for multiple choice tests, I think theres a movement in the US away from them recently. I only say that because I saw a sharp turn when I entered high school to open ended type questions. 60 percent is passing in the US, honors is decided by a mathmatically calculated gpa comming out to an average of 3.5 or so about 85 percent for all courses.

[stracing]

We start school at around 5-6 yrs of age. the first year is called kindergarten, then 1-6 is primary. 7-12 is high school. although some students choose to leave after yr10. After yr12 is your choice to do further study.

There are three types of high school, they're obviously the publicly funded or private. The third choice is called "selective high school", which is also publicly funded. This is where all the smarties go supposedly. To get into one of these schools, you complete a set of exams in yr6.

In yr10, you go through the "school certificate", which another set of exams. Wouldn't really bother if you wish to continue, otherwise you can leave school.

In yr12, you go through the "higher school certificate", which is also another set of exams. Now these marks are used to calculate the "university admission index". all uni courses have a minimum index for student admission. maximum is 100. so for medicine you need something like 99.95!

Now just say you meet the minimum index score for the course you want to study, you goto uni. If not, you can choose other courses with a lower index or goto TAFE (acronym for something ). Most choose TAFE, do well and enter uni that way.

Fees range largely. Pirvate schools can charge AUD$2000-$20,000/yr or more. Uni fees are different again. Local students get government assistance, meaning the government pays a portion of the full cost and you can defer your fees till you find a full time job. Overseas students must pay full fees up front. i thinks its $1600 per subject for them.

courses range from 3-6yrs full time study with about 8-10 subject per year. so a local student, say they defer all the fees, they pay $15000-$30000. overseas student, may pay $40000-$80000.

oh and this is only for new south wales. don't know what its like in other states.

I agree with RC about the uniforms, it also takes the hassle of what to wear

We have a lot of bullying in our school, so its not necessarily violence. There are punches being thrown around, but very rare to see knives and guns involved.

Also our exams have very little MC questions. I like it that way because if you're wrong, you're wrong! with written exams, you can put some theory down and you still get some marks. especially in mathematical type questions. sometimes you make a small mistake along your calculations and screws up your final answer. but if your working out is right you still get portion of the full mark.

[Zonda11]

Originally Posted by SFDMALEX I had an Discrete math teacher here who was an engineer... In Ukraine in order to teach math you have to be a bachelor/major in pure math. In order to teach physics you have to be a rocket scientist. Here you have engineers gone to teachers college teaching math and scineces...

Big deal...high school math here is a joke. I could teach many of my past courses.

Many people that teach math in high school are not even close to as qualified as an engineer. Plus just because someone has a pure math degree, doesn't mean they can teach. I know many people that have pure math degrees, but are fucking useless. Being able to do the math yourself and teaching it are two totally different things.

I've had many math profs who are very smart themselves, but when it comes to teaching, are lost.

[RC45]

Originally Posted by Zonda11 I've had many math profs who are very smart themselves, but when it comes to teaching, are lost.

Hhhmmm.. seems the common denominator here is the stident, not the teacher..