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Console update: PS3 no built-in HDD, Xbox 360 sold at a loss

PS3 News:
source: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/06...s_6127219.html

Article:

Quote:

Add-on PlayStation 3 HDD will run Linux

Ken Kutaragi reveals the console's hard drive will use alternate OS, hints that it will ship separately and will come in more than one model.
Since E3, Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi has been calling the PlayStation 3 an "entertainment supercomputer" rather than a gaming console. Now, he's revealed a new plan to make sure that it's acknowledged as one.

In an interview with Impress PC Watch, Kutaragi disclosed that he plans to install the Linux operating system on the PS3's hard disc drive (HDD) so it will be recognized as a computer, rather than a mere console.

But while Linux would require a hard drive to run on, Kutaragi told Impress PC Watch, "We're not going to equip [the PS3 with] a HDD by default, because no matter how much [capacity] we put in it, it won't be enough." It was unclear whether he was referring to the previously known fact that the PS3 would not have an internal hard drive or whether he was indicating that the device would not come with the external 2.5-inch detachable HDD outlined in the specs revealed at E3.

If the latter is the case, then hard drives will be optional--and will cost extra. Kutaragi seemed to confirm this when he said, "There are still some issues if the machine doesn't come with an HDD." Further comments seemed to indicate that there will be more than one model of optional add-on PS3 HDDs available at launch. "We've added a 2.5-inch HDD bay so that users can equip HDDs, such as 80GB and 120GB, even though that's still not enough [capacity]." By contrast, the Xbox 360 will ship with a 20GB hard drive, standard. No other 360 HDD models have been announced, although Microsoft officials have indicated larger-capacity models could be produced if needed.

A complete translation of Kutaragi's interview with Impress PC Watch is below:

Impress PC Watch: The PlayStation 3 has some extremely high specifications, but it doesn't come with an HDD. Why?

Ken Kutaragi: We're not going to equip [the PS3 with] an HDD by default, because no matter how much [capacity] we put in it, it won't be enough. The next step is definitely network drives. With the Cell server, they can be accessed from anywhere, via network. Whether it's your own house [or] your friend's house, you can access the [network hard drive] anywhere. That's the kind of world we're imagining. But there are still some issues if the machine doesn't come with an HDD. So this time, we've added a 2.5-inch HDD bay so that users can equip HDDs, such as 80GB and 120GB, even though that's still not enough [capacity]. Although a network drive would allow for terabytes of storage, there's still the necessity to run an operating system offline. A hard drive for running an OS will be required for [the PS3] to be recognized as a computer.

IPCW: Do you mean to say that you'll run an OS on the PS3 to use it as a computer?

KK: I believe its wrong that, while we've been calling PlayStations "computers," Nintendo, which is in our same business, keeps telling the world their consoles are "toys." So even though we're making something that has the capability to be recognized as a supercomputer and requires paperwork when exporting or importing, the government sees it as a "toy." The PlayStation 2 has something as great as the Emotion Engine, and it can even run Linux, but it's still considered a gaming machine. I thought that the situation would become better since Microsoft appeared [in the gaming industry] from the IT field. But they won't say it either, since they want to protect their business. They see problems if the Xbox could run Windows, so they keep calling the Xbox a "game machine." It is really a pain in the neck. This time, we're positioning the PS3 as a "supercomputer." But people won't recognize it as a computer unless we call it a computer, so we're going to run an OS on it. In fact, the Cell can run multiple OSes. In order to run the OSes, we need an HDD. So in order to declare that the PS3 is a computer, I think we'll have [the PS3's HDD] preinstalled with Linux as a bonus.

IPCW: So Linux can be run on the Cell?

KK: Linux is legacy, but it will be a start. In the case of the Cell, operation systems are applications. The kernel will be running on the Cell, and multiple OSes will be running on top of that as applications. Of course, the PS3 can run Linux. If Linux can run, so can Lindows. Other PC Operating Systems can run too, such as Windows and Tiger (Max OS X 10.4), if the publishers want [them] to do so. Maybe a new OS might come out.

IPCW: Does that mean that we can expect applications that take advantage of the Cell, aside from games?

KK: As an example, HD video-editing software is basically the same as the nonlinear editing system used in broadcasting stations. What we're trying to do on the PS3 is that level of software. Nonlinear editing systems are incredible, but if it was done on the Cell, it would be even more incredible... The difference will be obvious. I think other PC applications, like photo-retouching software, will also be able to be done on the PS3. The user interface will also get interesting. In the case of the PC, users will have to wait for years between XP's UI to Longhorn's. But the PS3's UI will evolve much faster. For example, if we had an interface where we could control applications using gestures and words using the EyeToy, it would be like Minority Report. Of course, that kind of an evolution will also reflect on games. This will be the first form that [the Cell] will be spread. It can connect a keyboard, and it has all the necessary interfaces. It can run media, and it can run on a network. It's got such an all-around purpose, and it's open. It will become completely open if we equip it with Linux, and programmers will be able to do anything with it. It's the same thing with the graphics, since it's got the shaders.

I can't help but feel that KK is greatly underestimating the work required to create the "network" he has in mind. If they intend to make that whole Cell system a workable reality, they better start a.s.a.p.

I will say one thing though: Better 80gb, 120gb, or possibly even 1tb in the future rather than being constrained to only 20gb.

Xbox 360 news:
source: gamespot

Article:

Quote:

Xbox 360 shortages, $76 per-console-loss predicted

Microsoft executive says demand for the new console will outstrip supply; analysts predict company will only charge $299 for $375 worth of hardware.
For the past several months, many gamers looking to pick up an Xbox have found the machine in curiously short supply. Today, a Microsoft executive implied that a similar drought of product may occur later with the company's next-generation game console.

Speaking to British game-industry magazine MCV, British Xbox boss Neil Thompson said demand could outstrip supply when Xbox 360 launches later this year. "I think demand is going to be phenomenal so we see that as a really difficult thing," he told MCV. "Will we execute well so retail will have good volume? Yes. But I don’t think we’re going to meet demand as people are going to come into this platform in a big way."

When asked for comment by GameSpot, an official Microsoft spokesperson issued the following silver-tongued response: "We're aware that demand for Xbox 360 will be at a fever pitch, and we're working with our manufacturing partners to ensure that gamers in Europe, North America and Japan will have a great Xbox 360 Christmas this year."

Meanwhile, an analyst report quoted by the Toronto Globe and Mail (registration required) claims to answer another burning question regarding the Xbox 360. The tech-savvy Canadian daily cited a report by UBS Securities analysts Patrick Parr and Martin Cecchetto, which estimated that Microsoft "will pay its manufacturing partners about $375 (US) a unit and sell them to consumers for $299."

The Toronto Globe and Mail article also said that Microsoft will pay out "between $350 million and $450 million this year and between $900 million and $1.1 billion in 2006" to manufacturers of the console. Divided by the estimated $375 manufacturing price--which will eventually go down--such expenditures would mean Microsoft expects to ship around 933,000 to 1.2 million Xbox 360s in 2005, with another 2.4 million to 3.2 million going to market in 2006. Multiply those figures by the estimated $76 loss Microsoft will take on each Xbox 360, and the company could lose as much as $91.2 million and $243.2 million on console hardware production in 2005 and 2006, respectively.

However, while the analyst report bears the respectable UBS imprimatur, the figures it contains remain estimates, not official numbers. Unfortunately, that's all the public has to go on at the moment, as Microsoft won't go into the financial specifics of the Xbox 360 launch. "We do not comment on rumors or speculation," said the same spokesperson.

By Tor Thorsen -- GameSpot

Nothing new. Even if it's just a "rumour", it's almost probably true that MS is selling the Xbox 360 at a loss in order to sell more consoles, and recoup the loss through bumping up the price of the software ("rumoured to be at $59.99). Same tactic Sega did with the dreamcast.

Look how they turned out.

Microsoft always said they would make their money back on Xbox Live, not through the Xbox Itself.

Thanks for the update :D

I want to keep on top of these things 'cos i'll end up buying one of them.... or both :mrgreen: .... i really want to play new Halo's (+ PGR3) and GT5

Thanx for the info, I was really hoping the PS3 will have the HD installed

Im kind of late on the Console info department. I used to have a PS2 which I sold (it was my lil brother's and he said he didnt want it anymore). I still want a PS2 for playing GT4, but what use is a HD on a console?

Having a HDD on a PS2 makes you not need the memory card or something?

Quote:

The DC was killed because they advertised nothing. Nobody really knew what the DC was. Plus, the Sony hype machine convinced most people to wait for the PS2.
The DC is still the best next gen console IMO. Shame it bit the dust.

As for the Xbox being sold at a loss, not surprising. The money is in software, has been for sometime. Even the PS2 was sold at a loss untill they hit a certain number of units sold.

Quote:

I will say one thing though: Better 80gb, 120gb, or possibly even 1tb in the future rather than being constrained to only 20gb

I think 20GB will be just fine for the Xbox. The first one had only 8GB, I barely made a dent in it. Thats with a ton of game saves and ripped CD's.
I'm starting to wonder what Sony is doing, I already have a computer, I don't need another one. At least they'll make them optional, I'd hate to have to pay for a 125GB when I wouldn't even scratch the surface of it.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter, I'll probably end up with both! :lol:

Yay XBOX 360. At $300 its a steal, but it does suck to pay so much for the game. Basically a fourth of the price of the console for a game. Cant wait for PGR3, that should own all, and Halo 3. The funny part about Halo 3 is that they are going to release it on the same day as the PS3. Bet there will be more copies of Halo 3 sold than PS3. Playstation just sucks for the real gamers!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeMoN

Pretty much. It also makes loading times faster since the console can stream data from the HD when it needs to instead of straight from the disc.
If Sony ever gets an online gaming network up and running, it can be used to save downloaded content as well. There are a lot of uses for it.

Quote:

"will pay its manufacturing partners about $375 (US) a unit and sell them to consumers for $299."

This is such a crock of shit - I can't believe people suck this propaganda up.

Let's analyse the sale of a single unit through Wal-Mart.

You walk up to the counter and ask "One XBox $350 please."

They say "$299.99 + tax please"

Now - who here thinks Wal-Mart just made zero dollars profit on that unit?

They have a "wholesale" price - and this is lower than Wallymarts selling price - not much lower, but lower none-the less.

Now the profit may be real as in the sell it for 299 after buying it for 249 - making 50 bucks.. or they could be invoiced to them at 299 - but they receive soft dollar rebates worth 50 bucks from Micro$haft - which still means they really bought it for 249 (but somehow I doubt this is how WallyMart will do business.

So - all those people who think the box really costs 375 dollars - I have some prime real estate in Florida swamp land - I am selling it at a loss for $300,000. :)

Looking through all the hype - the XBox more likely will cost 200 and sell for 249 wholesale.

:)

But that is just cynical old me somehow doubting this "sell at a loss" crap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RC45

Quote:

"will pay its manufacturing partners about $375 (US) a unit and sell them to consumers for $299."

Retailers almost certainly won't be selling at loss, e.g Walmart, but I have to say that I wouldn't find it surprising to know that Microsoft sell their Xbox at a loss just to make a serious dent in the market - as said before the real money now is with software and online play.

^^ yeah - but the "loss" and the "real cost" are a lot less than they will lead people to believe.

The PS3 not having a HDD was mentioned back in the original PS3 press release. :lol: Sony made a mistake in choosing a 2.5" HDD instead of the larger capacity & cheaper 3.5" HDDs. Maxtor/Seagate are now offering .5 TerraByte HDDs and by the time the PS3s really worth getting (1-2 years from US debut) 1 Terrabyte HDDs would be standard.

its incredible how they are making hard drives so big. BluRay 40GB wow thats like standard laptop hard drive size!

Just specced some new servers and SAN storage - with SCSI drives now 360GB almost a standard and 720 odd GB just around the corner - I sould imagine SATA and other IDE-style nn-SCSI solutions will be chasing 1TB very, very soon.

The question is just how reliable these super dense consumer grade drives are going to be.

It would have been nice if hardware vendors would have concentrated on upping quality and reliability and maybe let the drive size stagnate for a while.

Other than video requirements I cannot fathom what I would us the 2 x 200GB drives I currently have in my system for.

With base OS, a couple of current games and some Office tools there is always about 120+GB free.

These drives are sensitive to ambient conditions, and game consoles are not always treated very well.

Oh well - the drive in the XBox is still about 80% free.. :)

RC: It's possible that even if the retailers will make a profit, MS will make a loss. MS can simply give them to retailers at, say, $200, let them retail at 299+tax. Even if the console actually costs $350 to make.

I honestly can't speak about what Sega did in North America with the Dreamcast (since I have no idea), but I do agree that advertising and marketing would go a long way in helping a system.

As you all said... a hard disk seems rather moot when it comes to consoles, so whatever approach the two companies take with regards to this aspect, I doubt if it will affect anything.

Ever heard of kid a saying: "Mom, don't get me the Xbox 360 'cuz the built-in HDD is only 20GB and can only store about 120,000 save files on it! It's crummy!"

No? Well, neither have I.