C6 z06 vette whit 800 rwhp
 

This could be the perfect all round setup street road course and dragstrip all whit one engine.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/2...f600dbe477.htm
:-)8-)

Impressive beast !! :-) I wonder what it is on the road :huh:

That's all well and good, but now I need to see how it puts that power to the ground. Building a Dyno Queen is the relatively easy part. It becomes an entirely different challenge making all of that power work outside of the garage setting.

Dyno is only for tuning.
I agree whit you.
Making the 800 whp real world hp is the challange.
8-):-D

Those types of cars are literally a dime a dozen out here - just yesterday 2 super charged C6 Z06s where at MTI - this is nothing special - honestly - great to see and hear, but so unbelievably easy to achieve.

The supercharged V8 is wellperfected, these are almost to the point o fbeing "easy bolt together" systems when tackled by knowledgable shops.

The problem as Minacious points out is - "Where do you want to be able to use the power?"

All these supercharged/turbo charged street cars suffer from dreaded heat-soak on a road course, and that results in pulled timing which ends up with less power to the ground.

This car will make an awesome street car, and woul dbe ok for 3 or 4 laps at a time on a road course before needingto be parked to cool off (same is true fo rall the high HP super/turbo cars).

Now an 800rwhp NA setup would be neat ;)

Why super charge it when you can go NA

Very leanlier power curve btw.

And most turbo cars that run on road course run lower boost and have proper cooling outerwise things will meld very soon
A 800 whp na setup is something for you.

But as soon as you run "low boost" you are back in NA territory and all the supposed advantage of rnning boost in the forts place is lost.

Now remember, just because you run lower boost does not mean you get rid if all heat soak issues - it just means you can run a little harder for the few laps you do run.

I did a lot of soul searching before I settled on a NA setup- and in the end, I prefered to pay more for an NA setup that makes less power than a cheaper blower setup.

Street running is one thing, but road race course stuff is much tougher on equipment.

I would love to have a 1000 street car, but I know it won't be "all that" on a road course after 5 minutes of thrashing - he'll even the almighty Veyron has to come in to cool down after few laps ;)

(Message posted via iPhone)

Proper cooling can fix allot of problem's on forced induction car.
But you have to run lower boost.
:-)8-)

I am not trying to be an asshole here - but dont you think the actual companys/racers and people with FI cars don't know this and have tried various approaches? - but the bottom line is you cannot get rid of all the excess heat that affects a streetable pumpgas car. Even the Veyron with its 49 intercoolers and 86 radiators reduces power, pulls timing and slows waaaaaaaay down when it gets hot.

The very point of "running lower bost" defeats the purpose of having a super/turbo charged car to begin with.

To put things into perspective, in 2002 Lingenfelter had a 660bhp Twin Turbo C5 Z06... peple bought them, people loved them - LPE built them - but in a road race situation heat is an issue.

Fast forward 5 years to 2007. A number of people have 660bhp NA C5 and C6 Z06's - without heatsoak issues.

Guess which cars are prefered to be used on road race courses?

You see, it doesnt really matter how little boost you runn (for a turbo) or how big of a pulley you put on the supercharger, compressed air heats up - this heat soaks the engine, the heat soaked engine sufferes from pre-ignition with regular fuels and wold self destruct if the cmpoter never senses the knocking and pulled timing - resulting in the car being hot and slow ;)

Didn't you ever figure out why Best Motoring only ever run 3 laps for the their tests? It's because none of those modded turbo cars can run more than 5 laps before they get hot and slow down :)

Ok you are right.
But in those 5 laps the turbo cars will smoke as shown most of times in best motoring.
And that best motoring run allways a small numer of laps something i did notice before.
Speaking of best motoring you schould enter your car the american touge event i love see if your corvette can hold it's against the forced inducted competion.
8-):-)

Not me thats right - just the laws of physics ;)

But on lap 6 the NA car heads off inot the distance ;)

That would be fun - but pretty costly, as they will beat on the car mercilessly (as you see they do with every car they get their hands on) and leave it for dead :P hehe

Your car could be perfect for the touge just think what the noobs will think when you win in and your car becomes the touge monster and your car is american not japanese.
8-):-D

The main thing is turbo lag on a road course. Race cars have anti lag systems, but a street car doesn't. even on low boost with awesome heat dispersion.

Na, I haven't seent he guys staying on track long enough for the lag to make a difference ;)

Not all turbo engines have lag you need spec a engine properly and stroke the engine and keep it in the rev band
Just look at the new nissan gtr it has zero lag.

I don't believe that one ounce.

Rally cars (not street cars) are equipped with Anti Lag Systems:

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/bangbang.html

I kown lots of streetcars whit antilag.
:-)8-)

Define "street car"?

Pagani, you should learn how to retreat at certain point.

This is to me a street car.
:-):thumbup:

No i by my points.
:-P

I think heat and lack of progressive powerband are bigger issues than turbo lag. It's to do with how you set up the turbos - do you go for max power (i.e. makes the power at top end - like the F40) or max flexibility (like my S4 and the RT12). The latter hardly have much lag to talk about.

In my car, the power comes on at 1950 rpm so there isn't that much a lag so to speak. Yes, you can be caught flatfooted when you are in low rpms and high gear but you will have the same issue in a NA car which is out of its powerband.

^^^^^
This is true, sameer.

Well, with all that understeer, the front tires wont last the same 5 laps the engine will w/out pulling timing. :P

I dont think there is any production car that doesnt have turbo lag....if it did have an anti-lag system, the gas milage and life of the engine/turbo's would probably be next to nothing. Keeping turbo's spooled probably takes a good bit of energy.

You are spot on.
It also helps on turbo engine to stroke it to bigger displacement.
A well setup/build turbo engine can just be as good as any na engine.
:-):thumbup:

Yes the mines gtr will last 5 laps.
I has no understeer proper setup suspension.
:thumbup::-)

Is that the video you linked?

That GTR has tonnnnns of understeer.

Yes it has belance not understeer.

If thats what you call balance hehe... its understeering in every turn.

That is balance.
Anyway who cares it still on the fastest streetcars round a track.
:-P

NA is the way to go for endurance orientated racing. Just look at the GT cars in LeMans are stock cars in NASCAR (now there's 800 NA rwhp for you).

However, turbo applications can be made to work for endurance. Dakar is a great example. However, Dakar is so endurance oriented that insane horsepower isn't really the goal. The VW race toureg 2's only make 285 bhp. I should mention though, that they also make a whopping 443 lb-ft of torque that makes the power band nice and broad.

The best way to beat turbo lag is to just start with an engine that is suitable to begin with. By that I mean a V8! hehe. I've always been fond of turbo V6 applications.

Setup doesnt take away the results of heat soak.

Thats the point here - turbo/supercharged street cars suffer on road rcae courses - high speed/aggressive street driving is nothing like hot lapping a road race course... nothing at all.

On the street there is plenty of time to "cool" the engine - but not so on a track :)

Bring your Mines to Texas - and 5 laps later it will be as anemic and asthmatic as a Hoda Civic Hybrid ;)

Of course turbo cars heat soak in hot weather turbocars need colder to work properly.
The mines skyline gtr has been in the us.

All engines operate more efficiently in the cold. It's not just a matter of denser air with more oxygen, but the lower temperature plainly allows for better thermodynamic efficiency thanks to the second law. Not overheating is a plus too.

And thats the point. If youve every hot lapped a car in the summer in a place in the southern US... Well as the driver you'll be baking, just think what the car does. That turbo will heat soak, like the drag cars that have metal plennums, its only a matter of time. FI is generally not used for endurance racing. Mind you they are good fun, but if it could be done without FI for the same weight and cost believe me they would. Pauls point here is with the vette it can. It doesnt take away from the GTR.. The gtr can't, at least to my knowledge, put down 800 bhp na. That vette easily can, its been done by everyone and their brother so to speak.

For all out performance at or near sea level on a road race course for more then a few laps NA>FI for identical setups.

Hehe - bring on the cold.. NA I have 660bhp corrected to standard temperature and pressure... thats about 750bhp in cool winter air - and still no heat soak issues :P ;P

Ok i got the point.
But a turbo engine will make lots of power whit cold denser air.
More than a na engine.
;-)

But will be heat soaked within a few laps.

I am not making this up - I promise you. Don't you think if I wanted to have an "800rwhp" car I would have just built one using a super charged/turbo charged LS7 instead of an instead of a 580rwhp NA one? But such a car woul dhave been faced with way more issues hot lapping than I am already facing.

When you ask a tuning shop to help build you a 200mph race/street car, they seldom recommend a forced induction setup.

I am not sure if many folks understand the consept we are discussing - it is where the engine assembly soaks up all the heat produced and the intake charge, even though its been "intercooled" is still relatively warm and combined with the other hear of the boosted engine causes the gasoline to pre-ignite in the cylinders...

the knocking will destroy your motor, so the car;s computer pulls timing and slows the point of ignition - which significantly reduces the engine power.

This process saves the motor but makes the car slow... this is why boosted cars go out for a few laps of fun, then come in to the pits and cool down for long time before heading out again.

It can help to run very high octane race gasoline, but then the car is by definition no longer a street car.

BTW, have you ever seen in the magazine tests how Hennessey always packs his cars engine bays with bags of ice between runs?

Thats right - to reduce the heat soak and aid cooling between runs so he can "make the powaaaaa" - because in the real world a Venom Viper is literally breathless after 5 laps.

:)

Maby a bottle of oxigen is needed on a turbo or supercharged car
Btw did you kown that you can get pump fuel here in europe that has the same rating as most racefuel 102 octane to be precise.
Some cars here run on race fuel because it helps whit detantion and they can run more boost at the dragstrip or road course.
And run a diffrent map when they drive on the street and on pump fuel.

I know of many local gas stations that sell 110 (mon + ron)/2 , but that doesn't mean its a street car in street tune. ;)

I'm sure if RC were to run 110, he'd be 750 hp in the texas sun :P

Fuel octane in Europe is calculated using a different method from the USA, so it is not comparable.

"In the United States, pump octane is an average of 2 ratings, research octane (RON) and motor octane (MON). If you look at any gas pump in the United States, you will see a yellow sticker that says "octane by R + M / 2" That is the basic formula for an average. These 2 numbers mean different things. You could make an analogy to that of a blood pressure reading (systolic and diastolic). Research Octane number is always higher than Motor Octane number.

In Europe, they only report the RON. You may hear people discussing that in Europe, the octane is higher. Well, that is not exactly true. You see, in Europe, you might find 96 octane at a local gas station. (wow 96, highest we have here is 94). Well, that 96 is equivalent to 92 here in the States."

Running "race gas on the track with a special tune just for the track" is again, not a street car - by the very definition provided.

I use 104 unleaded Sunoco when I track he car - as insurance against detonation in the extreme conditions of hot lapping - but the car is not "tuned for 104" - it is "tuned for common premium pump gas".

There is no guarentee that when you are out one day that the "special octane" fuel you will need is on sale where you might be - so again, of you paln on driving the car asa true street car on pump gas that can be driven anywhere, it should be tuned for and use common pump gas :)

Otherwise - its a race car ;)

And to get back to the topic, an 800rwph boosted V8 produces HUGE amounts of heat - that has to go somewhere - on the street, you simply upshift and cruise for a few miles, car is cooler and you hit it again - thats not track driving, but can be insane fun on the streets - no argument there.

Ok on a turbo car you play whit the boost levels.
Most turbocars run on the their full on a dyno when they drive it on track the run lower boost.
Their standalone ecu's on the market that have multiple maps.
Example you have map for normal pump fuel.
And you have a second map for racefuel.'
Example of such a ecu.
http://www.motec.com/products/ecu/control.htm
With this kind of ecu you have streetcar or racecar with one ecu.

That is the very definition of a DYNO-QUEEN.

WHat is the point of posting "a number" then in reality the car doesnt run that on the road/track?

This is no longer a street car car then - it is a race modified car driven on the street - huge difference, and also rather pointless in the end.

So - by the time you have finishd you have $10 or $15,000 in custom race-only control system.

Basically for he price of a new F599 you now have a "custom controlled, dyno queen, high boost not-quite-a-race-car-not-quite-a-street-car" ;)

The cars that run a motec ecu are far away from a dynoqueen as possible can be.
Most serious cars that can be driven on the street and track.

Example if the engine can deliver 800 whp but you can't run it on 800 whp on road course because the tires spin to much less traction much lower times than you lower the boost so have power amd traction and when you are on dragstrip you can run the full 800 whp.

example of turbo car on low boost but it still makes 630 whp can't do with a na car.

Second example this is running full power 770 hp
http://www.livevideo.com/video/Pagan...cosworth-.aspx

Tyres spinning has nothing to do with heat soak. And a "lap attack" time is NOT the same as running 50 laps in an afternoon - that car, on high or low boost would be either blown up or severly limited by the time the afternoon sessions roll around at a trackday event.

Street setup boosted cars with full interior, air conditioning and full bodywork suffer from the pains of heat soak that a purposebuilt race car does not.

Again, if heat soak was something easily overcome in a STREET orientated high boost car then there would be NO norally aspirated track day cars.

Every car youuse as an example is NOT a daily driver friendly STREET orientated car - they are purpose built race cars with a few barely street legal addons.