Graywolf624 vs. SFDMALEX Fight Fight Fight!
 

I watched the title fight between contender Matt Serra , and defending champ, Georges St-Pierre.... and I came to the conclusion that I think both boxing and UFC would have the same outcome given each other's rules...

I personally cannot stand the idea that the persuer can continue knocking a guy beaten to the ground to a pulp... but after watching more then a few rounds over the last year or two, I think the outcome would still be in favor of the respective victors.

I have a lot more respect for boxers... but that's just me i guess....

both are great imo - did st pierre win?

No

huge upset! :shock:

Did he lose cause he's canadian? or because he got pummeled?

He took a beating like a man..... like a man's man... knocked down 3-4 times before being unable to get back uip

K1 Pride all the way.

K1 is often better to watch, and indeed UFC is a bit too vulgar for me sometimes (kicking ppl on the ground), but it's the most versatile, and probably the most "real" of the martial arts... What i really dont like to watch (although i respect it immensely, knowing just how tough it is), is when it's just a grappling match that goes on for 10 minutes, with very little explosive action...

UFC is a gathering of talentless bums and pussy American rules...they are actually money things that arent allowed in UFC which actually allow for all this beating to take place....For example in pride you can soccer kick someone in the head, and 90% of the time that'd be it the fight is stoped.

The quality of fighters is horrible in UFC, and the rules suck, way to much useless groud work allowed.

K1 is kickboxing so I dont know why anyone brought it up.

If you want MMA watch Pride.


Boxing in the sweet science, these UFC frat boys have nothing on boxers :wink:

Uhh no.. It isnt real to fight on your back.. That shit dont work in the real world. That being said..
In the real world you better know how to grapple too. Very rarely are you not going to go to the ground in a no rules fight. Theres a reason boxers have to be split when they grapple. In addition from experience I can tell you a martial art without grappling will get his ass kicked by someone who is semi decent at standing and can grapple. Just the way it is.

Im trying to figure out what you are trying to argue here, I would love to watch a real wrestling match between two people who know wtf they are doing.

But the fact is that most UFC fighters are fucking bums who just happen to fight and when they go down they know fuck all about wrestling grappling and all you see is two retards rolling around the floor clueless as to what to do next.


Pride

Im actually arguing two points.

A) the arguement that boxing is superior is foolish, a whole key part of fighting is outlawed. One that quite honestly would lead to almost any boxer (and just boxer) getting his ass kicked. If I could survive long enough to take one of the boxing best to the ground (Probably 50-50 probability if it were bare knuckle, much higher in my favor otherwise), I would beat their ass. And Im not exactly in the greatest shape of my life or as practiced. If you know what your doing you can pin their arms behind their back, then what are they going to do?

B) UFC is not grappling or fighting. They lay on their back and kick their feet up. I had a guy on my wrestling team that did this bullshit. It doesn't work for shit, in the real world Id spin your ass around and kick you in the head. That would be the end of it. And yet again.. Im not Mr. badass by any means. Its just there are some severe rule flaws in both styles that don't lend themselves to the real world.

1) Arguing which is better is useless, it's what one likes...

2) As far as UFC is concerned though I will argue that boxing is the superior sport simply due to the level of atheltes that participate in it. However this is not the case with other MMA leagues.

3) In boxing you learn to get hit, you learn to take punishment, in most MMA fights the first big hit is the end of the fight.

4) For you to say that you can take a 6foot6 250lb boxer and kick his ass is just pure arrogance. Considering these men completly shater men their own size with pillows on their hands I dont see how you would deal with even a jab down your pipe with no glove on. Im not talking about any hooks either.

5) A boxer your own size sure...I'll give you that maybe.

But lastly dont forget that boxers are taught toughness. And if you are to pick the toughest son of a bitch on the planet, it will always be some boxer.

i saw the PPV yesterday and the news they gave to the public was that UFC bought Pride. maybe now will see some more Pride fighter coming over to the UFC.

I extremely beg to differ. I have in fact kicked the ass of a 6 foot 5 260 lb ameteur boxer doing just this. Who says Im going to let them hit me. If I shoot right away id dare say the choice is 50-50 whether they beat me to the punch. (Pun intended)

In real martial arts you learn to take a hit too. Trust me, I can take some damn hard hits. Im not going to take a direct hit from the best boxer ever mind you, but your assuming that he can hit me when Im shooting at his ankles. Thats a skill hes never practiced or had to use, and isnt in his power zone. Hitting someone down near your ankles is not the same thing as hitting around the midsection or head.

That all being said Im not a small guy. Back in the day I was 5' 11" 180 lbs with 1 percent body fat. Im a long way from that now, but your still basically down to whether the boxer can hit me before I take a shot.. Something hes never prepared to defend against. It is pretty arogant to argue he can defend or hit against something hes never seen.

Boxers are not nor have they ever been the toughest. A good wrestler is typically in way better shape pound for pound.

There is no other sport, were you get hit more in the head and keep going then boxing. THat kinda ends the argument.

How is the wrestler the tougher guy when he never takes hits to the head? I dont get it.

Were a boxers whole job is to get hit and not go down.

Where does getting hit in the head make you tough? It doesn't. Your assuming the boxer has a chance to actually hit the wrestler in the head.. If the wrestler is good he wont. A wrestlers whole job is to get you to the ground and control your hands and feet before you can do anything. If he imobilizes your hands it doesnt matter how good you are with taking hits to the head.. Your toast.

And yes.. Wrestlers take plenty of hits to the head. Ive been slammed on my head more times then I can count. Happens quite often when you get thrown, something that doesnt happen in boxing. You try being picked up like a rag doll, tossed, and then have someone your own weight land on top of you. Then tell me thats not tough.

Lastly what makes you think that a boxer will just stand there and only use his hands?

Do you really think that if I stand there and I see some guy going for my ankles Im not going to soccer kick his head?

Uhh, well I guess we just have a different idea of toughness then.

To me tough is get hit and keep standing, cause if you are on the ground knocked out or phased I can do just about anything...

If I hit you and you drop then I dont see how thats tough.

If it were that simple to stop a wrestler.. It isn't. It takes alot of skill. I can take you down so that you cant kick me in the head.. And if you have never practiced defending it, no matter who you are.. If your not dead on with that first hit your going down. And remember.. I havent wrestled in years.. Its a simple fact.. In fighting you will only succeed against an attack if youve practiced the correct defenses against it. A boxer hasnt.. hes fucked.

The problem with that arguement.. Youd be stupid to fight against someones strength.. That isn't tough, thats stupid. You use your advantages.. And tough in the end is the guy that wins, not the guy who can take punches while standing up.

6 mins on a wrestling mat would change your mind.. If you lasted 20 secs Id be amazed to be honest. Anyone who has ever done it will tell you that wrestling is easily the most intense phsical per short amount of time. Thats part of being tough. Theyd also tell you, depending on the style, some of the moves down right hurt. Punch in the head fine.. but how about I twist your ass into a pretzel so your arm almost breaks after throwing you and landing on you. If you arent in some sort of pain at that point you dont have nerve endings.

The simple fact is.. The wrestler knows how to do basic defense against a boxer.. The boxer does not know how to do basic defense against the wrestler. That means the wrestler has an edge. If hes smart, exploits it, and the boxer misses the first punch.. its over.. Once on the ground the boxer wont be able to use his fists, which means hes defenseless.

Well we'll just never know till we see one of each go head to head will we?


All I can say is that I fought all my life, only now did I slow down. Kickbox, box, I dont have any formal grappling training but I can still wrap my legs around someones head while on the ground. And I also had my fare share of scraps outside the ring, and I dont remeber a time when someone went for my legs and I didnt get a chance to get something in on them.

Then your not fighting the right people... Its visible in K1 and UFC even. The people without any grappling experience get their ass kicked. The ones that are the best at strikes go get grappling experience.. Because its a rare day in hell when a fight doesnt go to the ground.

If it were only that simple.

Im sure we could... A buddy of mine trains for ufc.. Im sure he could provide exhibition matches.

You are completly wrong to assume that a heavyweight champ is somehow less strong then an elite wrestler.

I never took anything away from wrestling, which I think is an awesome sport, which I wish I could one day train in.

MMA is just that MMA. We see MMA fights yet we see how many fights either end on the ground or standup. How wrestler loose to boxers and the other way around. This is just pure fighting with anything allowed, and the outcomes are always different.

A standup fighters gets taken to the ground and looses, or a standup fighters lands a few punches and throws the wrestler competly off his game plan.

Do I even need to mention how many times a wrester has unsuccseful take downs? Were a boxer is open to throw a hook in either direction to end the fight?


I think you are trying to proove that wrestling is this ultimate martial art which beats all others. But countless times you will be proven wrong in leagues like Pride and UFC, were its not the art, but a number of other factors which deterimine the outcome of the fight.

as a former wreastler, I'll say the two are very different from each other. Boxing is a sport of hitting and taking hits, which I enjoy much more then watching a wreastling match.

Wreastling is 1000x more civilized then UFC. Hitting somebody while they are down just really turns me off of the sport.

The best wrestler vs. the best boxer.... in an open fight, id think the wrestler would win, in a fight with a set of rules, it's a toss up IMO.

The problem with the UFC guys is it's usually only a few hits they take before they fall to the ground, at which point it's all over.

lol man, who do you want me to fight? The champs? :? :lol:

All I said is just becauase I dont have any formal wrestling training doesnt mean that I cant wrestle a little bit on instict or from what little I know about it.


Im just surprised that you think that someone who is trained to hit and not get hit is going to loose by default to someone who is not ever trained to get hit.

Very few if any end with purly standing.. not in the real world and not mma.

The wrestler has other options as well.. A throw for example. Another option the boxer has never seen.

Pound for pound they are... Thats a given. A heavyweight champion can move out of range to get a breather. A wrestler doesnt have that option.

Thats not my arguement. My arguement is someone without grappling experience will get their ass kicked. That doesnt mean it needs to be the ultimate martial art.. It just means in the absence of basic knowledge of this field your screwed. This has been showed in both UFC and Pride time and time again.

Instinct.. LOL :lol: :roll:

No offense but youve just proved my point. Several things that are instinctive in grappling are WRONG. Several of them will get your ass beat bad. It isn't instinctive in the slightest until youve trained for years, any more then any sport. If that wasn't the case you could come from nowhere and be good. Doesn't work like that.. I dont care how heavy you are, if you want to wrestle under wrestling rules and youve never done it, Ill walk all over you.. I can guarentee that without a shadow of a doubt.

Just like if a professional boxer asked me to box Id be screwed...

Kinda like someone who has never been trained to hit and get hit will get their ass kicked.

But a wrestler has been trained to take hits.. Thats the parts you miss.. We take hits every match... Ive personally had concussions, bloody noses, teeth jarred, bruised ribs, broken arm, swollen disc in my back etc... many of my teammates had broken jaws or noses. That shit happens and you are trained to take hits and falls, at least at the upper levels. You have to be prepared for the eventualities to not lose your game plan.. or your screwed.

Im not saying its to the level of the boxer.. But it doesnt have to be.. it just has to be long enough to get the man to the ground.. Thats easier then you think.

I really dont know WTF you are on about today Gray.

I dont wrestle and I dont claim to know how to wrestle.

Just I like dont expect you to walk all over me in a boxing ring, or actually pose any threat at all, because it takes a ton of training and sparring to be good.

I seen more then my fare share of average Joe's come into the ring thinking they can fight never having it done before and made look silly in less then one round.

If I fight a wrester by their rules I expect to loose. But if I just fight on the street I'm definetly not useless on the ground just because I happen to be a boxer.

Just because Im a boxer doesnt mean I got zero knowledge of what to do if I happen to end up on ground. If I end up on the ground in the first place.

Except your in the wrestlers play ground playing by their rules once your on the ground... You just said theyd kick your ass.

And how much do you know about hitting? How can you be so damn confident that you are not going to take one on your button before you ever take a man down?

Or get kicked in the head...

I really dont understand how can you be confident in taking a man down to the ground who is strong and activly fighting back.....

And who says Im going to his playground and he's not going to stay in my'n?

D00de I gotta go, I have a GTL race, we'll talk later.

I've done it and seen it done many times. I have several friends that are boxers.. and weve tested this theory.. in the exact way you describe.. and its ended the same way all but once (of probably hundreds of times).. Where he did get a shot off.. Which comes down to the 50-50 once we are bare knuckles. In that case he wasnt bare knuckled and I still one.. Had he been and it had been someone better.. I may have been gone.. But that angle isnt the best to be punching someone..
No one has ever succeeded in kicking me while I was shooting.. several have tried.. You just need to know how to do it. If you lead with your head, your not shooting right in the first place.. Your head should be no where near the feet, ever.

Statistics. Statistics and observation show that less then 1 percent of fights dont have a portion on the ground. That statistic is related to MWA's but in all the street fights ive seen, Ive never seen a situation with no portion of grappling.

hmm my bad about UFC, in my mind all MMA is the same :P dont watch it enough, it's indeed pride that's tough...

From my experience? Although 100% going at it standing up for a full minute is lethal, the first time i wrestled it completely killed me, the pure level of physical-ness of it completely surprised me...

That said, wrestling/grappling is so much a thinking game, if you know your stuff and play it smart, and know your techniques, you can make it a lot easier on yourself (once you're in a control point "all you have to do" (not at all easy ofcourse) is stay there and wear ur opponent out, or think of a way to hit him.
Standing up going at it like your life's depending on it wears you out insanely fast too, it's (to me) probably more intense than sprinting... although that might also be down to my stamina being alot less than when i still did track athletics...

Now, about the fighting classes: it is my feeling that most fights are determined on the ground too... Also, back in the beginning days of MMA, i believe most of the winners were grapplers who had enough strenth/speed to throw decent kicks and punches, and later the standing-up guys learned grappling techniques and things evened out (correct me if im wrong here)

Well I suggest you check out Mirko "CroCop' Mirkovic, whose a kick boxer in his pride fights, sure it ends up on the ground a lot.

But if you really know how to kick you get huge reach advantage over your opponets, going down or not, you can create a lot of room roundhousing someone wether they are going to take you down or try to do standup...I know we are going into kickboxing...but Im just brining another example were I dont think wrestling could be as effective.

Reason I say this is because I have seen a ton of times were wrestlers fail in their take downs. I dont think your in position personaly to say that Pride and heck even some UFC fighters are just extremly shity wrestlers if they cant take a man down each time they attempt it.

There is no one in Pride or UFC that is any good that hasn't had wrestling/ grappling instruction (either as a sport or even to work on their form for mwa). As was mentioned above, when they first started those with only striking ability got slaughtered.. Whether they are elite wrestlers or not. Mirkovic included. I never argued they were.. I told you a straight up boxers going to get his ass kicked in a street fight against someone who has grappling ability and even a modicum of ability to take a hit. They just arent trained that way.

As for UFC fighters, the problem with their fighting style is the rules make it tactically advantageous to lay on your back and fight from there. That doesnt work in the real world.

I agree, I dont think boxers stand much of a chance in a street fight if only stickign purely to boxing.

The vibe I got off you is that wrestling alone is the key to winning any fight, which I dont agree with, because wrestling is not about punching, I dont think wrestling alone guarntees a win, as we can all see in MMA.

On the other hand, I highly doubt that Id loose to someone with wrestling experiance each time, say on the street. Me as a kickboxer/boxer I dont see my self walking on the street, getting jumped by some wrestler and loosing each time.

I never said alone.. I said without it youd be screwed. It sounds like you still dont get it based on your comments.

Oh I get it, I just dont agree with an implication that just because I never formaly grappled I'd get my ass kicked by some wrestler on the street.

Then I think your foolish. If you havent had training in defending against something, if they use it against you your screwed. If you don't recognize that, then you need more training as thats the first thing you learn in any training.

I do mate, I beat the shit out someone I see on the floor, with eveyrthing I got :D

I think your foolish to think that some random wrestler will have a chance against a man who you know nothing about.

At least I give a wrestler a chance, your just arrogantly thinking that cause I havent formaly trained in wrestling Ill loose.

I think a wrestler will loose cause he isnt formaly trained to take round houses, left hooks, knees, kick to the legs and a whole bunch of other shit.


Im just trying to think how you are magicaly going to prevent someone from using their arms, keens, legs and just about everything else 5seconds into a fight. :lol:

ITs actually quite easily.. Dodge the first punch.. grab the arm.. put it behind them.. sweep the legs out.. sit on the hands and start punching in the back of the head or twisting the arm so it almost breaks. I can effectively render you armless in about 2 seconds with some of the moves I know (incredibly important in wrestling as one of your best defenses against a shot is your hands.. If I pin them behind you in some way even in wrestling your screwed), and without training you wont get out of it. How do I know that last bit.. Because there are moves you can put a freshman wrestler in and he will never get out. Its just counter intuitive on how to get out.

Its actually extremely easy to take someone out without grappler training if your an experienced wrestler. Keep in mind.. Im not some random wrestler.. I was a state champion back in the day. We arent talking about joe schmoe who wrestled for a day here.

Thats great mate, you do all that as if you have a manikin standing in front you :lol:

I want to see you to succesfuly do all that. First of I wonder how you are going to dodge the first punch...I mean what are the odds you will even see the first punch coming...

Then I wonder how you will just grab someones arm while trying to take them down and they are in a boxing stance?

Then I wonder how you come within the range to actually grabing me, cause if you that close trying to just wrestle your head is coming off.

I'm just shocked that you think everything will work by your plan and not the other way around...

Some bold shit, If I didnt know better Id think you are completly delusional, state champ or average joe.

How the fuck can you be so confident you can take a man down... Im confident that you will take a few cuts on the face before it even goes down.

You know what I think? I think you fought the wrong people, or dont watch any professional MMA fights.

Actually, a wrestler has been trained, just like any person who is trained in a fighting sport.. to see attacks comming based on indications of your body. So thats how.. They dont have to see your arm.. Neither do I.. Just the movement of your body gives it away.. Your stance even.. Clarkson had an interesting show on speed that mentioned it. I dont actually ever see your arms move, I see the indications that your arm will move. And that is key even in wrestling.

You clearly don't understand wrestling.. The key isnt trying to take them down while they swing at you.. The key is to use the force of their punch to take them down and push their arm behind them.. It requires no energy at all if you follow the natural motion of their body and weight.

Theres some really simple basic wrestling moves and they are all based on weight transfer.. You use the power of the swing to your advantage..
A boxer is going to swing at your cheat or head.. If you can read as you have to in all martial arts.. Your going to be able to respond.. its knowing how to respond thats the key. If you miss with the read. you get hit.. but then you pull out and strike from lower. In essence the boxers only chance in such a fight is to keep you at arms length long enough to knock you out.. You get in too close hes screwed. Thats seen time and time again in mwa.

Who said Ill be the first man throwing the punch?

I'll wait till you commit and use that force to turn the tables.

I see a man on the floor trying to throw me down, he's commited, I step back and soccer kick his head, neck or whatever exposted part of the body.

Gray your thinking that the guy in front of you is a stupid monkey that will play into your cards, thats were your thinking is flawed.

Why the hell would a man be on the floor.. You never actually sit on the ground in a wrestling shot.. If you do your screwed. For a throw you never even get close.. its done from up close standing.. And if they have you in the right hold to throw, you wont be stepping back.. its just too quick a move.. The keys to defeating it are to never get put in it or try to roll through.. Neither of which will you be trained to do.

And I hate to break it to you, but a wrestler, unless hes foolish or hot headed, would probably wait for you to throw a punch or somehow shift your weight. Everything in wrestling involves drawing the other person out and then taking advantage, at least for the good wrestlers. You get someone to react or act.. then you act.. You never just go swing.