MC 12 in JGTC aka Super GT
 

http://www2.jgtc.net/gtcgi/prg/NList...005468&List=13

:D

we all love the MCC

Magnusun? i wonder if its what he does with his off time from being the GM factory driver? sounds cool... and definatley the 'coolest' car in the JGTC field IMO

blah JGTC sucks, now it might be worth watching.

I think these sports car drivers are like freelance writers - they have a contractual commitment to "appear at agreed upon events" - but unlike NASCRAP (and maybe Forumla Scum) drivers are able to freelance every other waking moment.

which is probably what they have to do to make the kind of stupid money the NASCRAP guys pull int.. ;)

It wont do good trust me mate. In JGCT its a joke. You are basicly allowed to do whatever the hell you want to all four corners. There are more electornics in those cars then then there is motor.

Hence I cant stand that series....The car drives you.....too much electornics. Every aid imagined is allowed.

i cant say im suprised... since porsche factory drivers would find other rides when thier factory wouldn't show up... or for some reason wanted to try some fresh blood temporarily for a race.

about the nascrap boys...
Dont care 8) it is unfortunate that such money goes into something so shitty

Oh please... most of you dont know what the hell you're talking about. I bet none of you guys actually watch any JGTC races. Read...

http://supergt.net/supergt/whats/regu05e_tech.htm

SuperGT cars makes F1 cars looks like a space shuttle. I for one have attended every JGTC races since 2000. The only time I missed it was because of the SARS scare when it was cancelled. If offers a way better entertaiment value than most F1 races. On track or off track. Theres no such thing as domination in JGTC. Everybody have a chance of winning.

Also interesting to note that a Ford GT will be run next year in GT300 class.

http://www2.jgtc.net/gtcgi/prg/NList...005479&List=13

READ THIS

BULLSHIT!

I too saw that "prohibited" list before, surprised at first only to find out that its bullshit. Really, go reserch it a bit. I dunno what they do, but I clearly remeber reading that every fuckig thing imaginable is allowed on all four corners.

FYI even FIA GT "Prohibits" all electronic aids, but the teams still manage to slip in levels of TC etc that the governing body just cant monitor.

Oh and I guess they dont run sequential boxes either right? Squarly contradicting one of the so called rules on "gear assits"

Well give me facts... Dont just assume. I think you're the one who's bullshitting. You pick the wrong guy to bullshit with. I'm not a complete tool when it come to JGTC and SuperGT. Borderline fanatic more like it. You have never seen or experience a JGTC race ever in you whole life.

Ahh whatever mate, why dont you just fuck off with that attitude? Please and thank you.

I dont need to give you facts my friend, I know what I know, so get your own facts ok.

FYI I got my information from people who where in the process of making a JGTC physics model for a simulator and who reaserched the subject quite a bit.


Oh and you being such a "fanatic" must have heard the TC cut ins from the onboard shots.

Telemetries are prohibited? LOL, shit.....thats a good one...

Oh and no fly-by-wire throttles? hmmmm thats a hard one to beleive :lol:
:roll:

No semi auto boxes? HAHAHAHAHA So what are those sequential boxes they run? LOL! Even some are steering wheel controlled....


Take your head of your ass and stop getting high off those shit fumes my friend, and open your eyes before calling someone a bullshiter.

Oh, the typical behavior of the ignorants. All talk no facts. Just assumption and opinions. And you even got your info from a 3rd party... not even the ppl who directly involved with the developement of the cars.

You want pics of the dash? Here i took this one myself from last year race.

http://img500.imageshack.us/img500/3...ment2jl.th.jpg

I've seen the cars... talk to some of the engineers and know the elaborate history of the superGT. While some of your claims might be true in pre 2000 cars, the fact is 2000 cars an 2005 cars are very very different animal altogether. Why do you think skylines stopped dominating JGTC?

LOL! Thank you. Thank you for just proving your self wrong.

THat sequential shifter goes against the rules you outlined.

EPS is electronic steering assistance.

That WET/Dry switch I guess is just a beacon switch of some sord :lol:

LOL that dash got more buttons then a space shuttle.

WHat with those SOFT HARD levers? Now dont tell me thats for some sord of remote suspension adjustments.

Keep owning your self buddy.

Once again watch any onboard video and just hear the TC cutting in.

Every car has its day.


For instance 993 GT2 dominated the GT scene. Got old, got slow.

550s GT(S) class racers where a major force in the ELMS, FIAGT scene for quite some time, but they are coming near the end of their line.


Anyway that series is just a big show. The level of drivers there is just not impressive sorry. Watching those onboard shots is plain hillarious... :lol:

They still run a Macca in the series? LOL

Now dont get me started on the redicilous aero packages they run, that shit is more drag then anything else.


Put any JGCT car against an ALMS, FIA GT front running Vette/MC12/550 and they will really feel those 700bhp

Oh yeah telemetry? I bet those CRT TVs most have some serious telemetry equipment in it....

http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/8...ment6vc.th.jpg

Oh please, you dont even know what they actually stands for. You think anybody who got TCS will be that stupid to advertise it out in the open? Everything can be adjusted by the driver... but mechanically not electronically like in F1 cars. You know how practical to do that during a race? And EPS are not prohibited.
Please... READ the rules carefully... you just owned yourself.

^^^^^
that ferrari looks terrible! :shock:

oh, and pc's usually cary telemetry data these days ;)

oh... and by mechanical... do you mean an electric switch for something that ends up being mechanical, which is electrically monitored?

Are you fucking stupid? WHAT IS THAT SEQUENTIAL LEVER DOING THERE?

I guess its just a dildo right?

YOU CAN HEAR THE TCS you moron. Being so hard core you must have heard it. Or you just dont know what TCS sounds like.

Your a moron. DO you know how a telemtry works? Ever worked a telemetry? Well I have, and all the pits need is a screen to monitor and tell the driver what adjustments to make.

Everything can be adjusted by the driver thanks, thanks for owning your self agian. SUspension adjustmnets from on board. WHat does that mean? Means you can adjust all four corners from on board.



Jezzz I dunno what else to say........knock your self out man....dont want to waist anymore time on your ass.

No skylines dominated because of the 4wd and it's electronics. Since the road car came stock with it, it was allowed. It'a a loophole in the ruling for the earlier JTC. The end result was JTC was disbanded specifically to stop the domination of the skylines and the JGTC was formed.

[/quote]

Of course it was all show. Lemans was all show, F1 was all show and WRC was all show. It was a show for the manufacturers to showcase their product. Name me one series that aint.

I'm not going to defend the level of driver in JGTC but they are sure as hell better than you average racing drivers.

The McF1 was run as a hobby for some rich guy. That's what JGTC is. Anybody can bring any car just as long as they comply with the regulations. You can choose to run the car for only one weekend for all they care but as long as you comply to the rules, you're in.

Aeropackages? DTM got an even crazier aero packages than even the most extreme JGTC cars. I guess those guys must have higher drags than JGTC cars right? But no, a 2000 CLK-DTM is slower than a JGTC car.

Yeah, why do you think it got only 500bhp? To give everybody a chance of winning. Most JGTC cars will push over 700bhp without the mandatory air restrictor accroding to an Toms engineer who I happed to meet at the track cafeteria during a break. We chat quite a while. He assures me that while any JGTC car will lap as fast as GTS class car but might not last as long as a GTS car as they are built for a 2 hour race not endurance. On the more interesting note, there are LM GTS cars that raced in JGTC but with the air restirction it was hopeless. Dude, do you actually know anything about racing?

Do you know what an FI 550 or a Vette could do? I guess you never knew that in FIA GT the GT field is all normaly aspirated machines.

I guess you also never knew that they also run air restrictors. Those NA engines with no restrictions could run north of 800bhp.


And no I dont know jack shit about racing :lol: I just happen to have race drivers, engineers, physicists as friends oh and I also happen to test simulators, test physics models and work with telemtries from time to time.....so no, as you can see I clearly know nothing about racing. :)

Now as I said, fuck off. :)

What are you stupid? Have you actually read the rules?!!
It said "Semi-automatic or automatic gearboxes" not sequential gearbox. So no, it's not a dildo. It's a gear lever.
No you cant hear the TCS. The similar system is available in Motogp bikes, it's called a slipper clutch. A JGTC driver can drop from 6th gear to 1st without the need to wait for suitable rpm range. Watch you on board video and you'll notice how fast they downshift the gears. You can even hear the engine banging on the redline as they downshift. My god you cant even tell the difference between viscous clutches and TCS.

Telemetry in JGTC context is live telemetry like you got in F1 cars. Yes I have a real MOTEC telemetry software software installed in my PC just for fun. I know how it works. JGTC banned live temetry but not data loggers. You're confusing data loggers and live telemetry.

Yes, everything can be adjusted but through a mechnical linkage. It's lightyears away from automatic and electronic adjustment which is what you're suggesting.
You misread the rules and you're trying to pin it on me? Puhleaseee.....

since when is a SMG not semi-automated?

it cannot work quicly/reliably without electronics

I`m with dani :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Dani mate, please. Out of all people you should be the first to catch this.

None of the cars in JGTC come with sequential boxes. Hence any alteration to a gearbox voids the so called "rules" outlined by JGTC. Understand? NSX comes with an H pattern box, further alteration of that into a sequential box is a form of automation. :wink: A sequential box is a form of a semi auto gearbox. Period. A fully manual gear chage involves clutching and decluching, that is not the case with JGTC. I dont even remember them lifting on upshifts. They most likely have like the case in some cars a cut ignition switch on the gear lever. Hence a form of automated gear change.


And lastly please show me any facts that he has outlined and where he has the upper hand in this argument. Really...Where are the facts that he has outlined.

LOL...keep owning your self buddy. Your just making my life easier.

Now please, please tell me what effect slipper clutch has to do with anything said previously? You just pulled that out of your ass. What relivance does it have to any of the argument above from making your self look further like an idiout with the whole gearbox talk.

You do realize that TCS and clutches work completly differently right?

So they can ditch from 6th to 1st no problem. They dont have to match rpms, what else? Please go on...All this FULLY MANUAL facts you lay down are great hehe :roll:


You say you have Motec Interpeter installed? Just for fun right? Now what use does it have with no data to input? You know it's completly useless withouht any data input right?


And you do realize that a driving aid does not have to be computer operated in order to be considered a driving aid right?

Any adjustments from inside the cockpit apart from the basics such as brake bias is considered an aid.

Being able to adjust all fours, having electornicaly and not even hydrolycaly operated steering column is considered an aid.

If I drive and start to loose grip and have the ability to adjust my steering rack ratios thats an aid.

If I drive and find that I the front ARB should be stiffer and adjust that from the cockpit thats an aid.

All of the above aid the driver to overcome a probem he is experiancing.



Pure racing, meaning man and machine is when you set your car up in pits and set out on track, battling changing conditions with skill and not a flick of a switch to change a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

You lost long time ago buddy, but please do continue I want to see how far you will go.
.........................

Ahh brake balance adjustment is nothing new mate, not surprised you can adjust it.

Now when you are able to adjust dampers, arb's and tire pressures from inside then we can discuss this matter further. Now I know your clio cant do that.

A bi directional telemetry allows for onboard system adjustments from the pit withouht bothering the driver.

A one way telemetry requires the driver to make the adjustment by him self with the instructions giving by his radio based on whatever the pit crew sees on the telemetry screen.

As you can see that still doesnt prevent the driver from dynamic setup chages.


Who said anything about data loggers? As far as I know they are mendatory for collision and accident reasons.

I really think there is a mis understand.

A stock clio, just like an NSX come with an H pattern box right?

Altering that to be easier to use, like a sequential box is a form of driver aid ;) It is that simple mate.


Now what our GT1 friend is saying that the JGTC is completly man and machine clean of driver aids which is the biggest load of bullshit I ever heard.

THose cars are competly adjustble from the inside making it the cheating bastard series of teh world.

Anyway, Im outta here, really dont want to spend any more time on this then I already did.

F1 is the worst of them all :D That TCS until you hit 100kmh or whatever is compelete bullshit......cheating bastard? Hell yea!

Ofcourse all cars have driver aids these days. But JGTC has the most of them :wink: :D Point me where you see in car adjusble suspension componets in FIA GT then Ill shut up. Show me electornicaly assisted steering racks in alms or fia gt and then Ill shut up.

ALMS is a cheating bastard too. The Vettes use TC at one point.

Honda, Toyota, Nissan.....they are all cheating bastards...Your point being? The whole series is a cheating bunch of wankers :lol:

I think your missing all points Dani by a country mile. :wink: By cheating I dont mean directly going against the rules, because I said previously at the very begining those rules that GT1 posted I dunno who they for, what they for or what they are doing there because most of them are contradicted. AFAIK the teams negotiate with the governing body and run wtf they wish as long as all the right parties agree....ommiting the fact that there are a shit load of dirty politics in the likes on FIA GT, F1, ALMS, ELMS, JGTC.....

You remeber the so called "manual gearboxes" in F1? It was just hillarious when they showed onboard shots and you see that the drivers didnt even bother to imitate a gear change lol :lol: Only recently did we start to see the drivers actually using the gear flappies...

Cheating bastard means driver aids are used, not a man controlling brake pressure, not the man matching revs, not the man strugling to turn the wheel. Thats a cheating bastard.

You Dani are in the cleanest series of them all, because I have much more respect for blokes who drive minimal assisted vehincles in comparison to the cheating bastards of JGTC.


However none of the series currently use as much bullshit to aid the driver dynamcly in race then JGTC...Im sorry but onboard suspension managment kills the whole purpose of racing against the machine and adapting to surface and grip changes.....*Ooppppps looks like my rear end is a little loose, lets stiffen the rear damping a bit..click click..done*


Would you like to discuss the matter further?

All that fucking ABS, onboard suspnesion adjustments, electornicaly assited steering, automated gearboxes (anything that doesnt require the use of a clutch is automated, because they are not running clutchless gearboxes) all that shit is a form of cheating...


I really really dont see where you are going :?

valentino rossi was within 1 second of MS record Fiorano time... with Zero F1 experience... sure Rossi is a very talented Moto GP driver... but 0 experience... its just sooo much less dependant on the driver.

albeit, that last second, its simply amazing to look at MS telemetry compared to even other F1 drivers!

anyway... making anybody fast doesnt make for good racing IMO... the best driver in some series, the best car in others... and F1 is supposed to be a combination of the 2... in 2003, Ferrari IMO didn't have the best car... but definately top 3... yet they still won... in 2005, Renault didn't have the best car either... but definately top 2...

anyway... i dont actually know much about JGTC... but the cars dont look like something that is re-designed to be a race car, but more of a styling exersize. the cars are fast, but there are reasons on why DTM is more popular then Aussie V8 supercars, and JGTC, and FIA GT is more popular then the both by light years. so what nascar is still more popular... it still sucks :P

Calm down guys! It seems to me that both of you are very knowledgeable about such things. This is turning into a good thread, except for the name-calling.

Come on, we are in the 21st Century, technology is something good and necessary. But maybe you 'd prefer something like this:

http://www.freeuploader.com/view.php/92763.jpg

Having the MC12 in the SuperGT is wonderful news. I wish they wont turn it into a hideous car with all these "ricy" wings/spoilers...

SFD, i think you need anger management classes mate :P :wink: .

Oh, and just so you know, a 'standard' (your words not mine lol) h-pattern gear box (all be it with dogs rather than synchros) can easily be converted to a sequential set up, simply with the addition of a ratchet change mechanism on the shifter forks.

You talk about these different technological advances as if the driver doesnt do anything anymore.
The australian V8 supercars use manually adjustable roll bars, and have done for years, this looks to be a similar system (although a bit more agricultural) than the JGTC set up. You consider this 'cheating' the main reason they use this is to account for the fuel weight drop off, as the tank is hung out over the rear axle, and more so for weather condition changes.
There just isnt enough time, or feedback to be able to do what you are talking about '.....*Ooppppps looks like my rear end is a little loose, lets stiffen the rear damping a bit..click click..done*' if a driver was capable of doing that (ie investigate setup changes during a race) whilst driving at 10/10ths then i applaud him.


All you did in this thread is shoot down every usefull comment 911GT3 made, and dig yourself into a rather large hole. :|

Anger managment? Mate I'm not angry, tis just that our friend here jumped here to call me a bullshiter that is trying to bullshit him while all I was doing was trying to set him on the right path. But his "borded line fanatic" attitude got him where he is.


It takes the driver to seconds to make those changes when the pit tells him what to change, hence its not the driver doing the monitoring and changes cause they still run a one way telemetry.
If the driver hit the track, had no radio communication, or rather radio com where the team cant see what the car is doing and the driver made the changes himself then I applaud him aswel. Tis not the case though. Its not pron they are watching on pit screen mate :wink:


Dig my self a whole? Now if you find an argument where I lost please show me because I dont see one. All I see is this guy ignore everything I said and continue to bring in bullshit which played no relivance to whole discussion. Now if I did dig my self a 6 footer Id still see the surface :P :wink:

Who said we dont need technology? I am all for it.

Use technology to make lighter better stronger faster components. Use technology to create better more inteligent ECUs, use technology to create better gearboxes, do all that. Use technology to create better aerodynamics.

Now use technology to manage throttle, steering, gearbox inputs? Hell no. Or have the engineers in the pit tell you what to change when you are in trouble with the help of a few knob turns. Keep that for old rich farts in their Mercs to keep them safe.

When I hear Clarkson say that Ferrari said that the fatest Ferrari customer laps teh ENzo 1 or 2 seconds behind the test drivers time around Fiorano something is wrong. ALthough I am sure that statement is not exactly correct but I woudlnt be surprised.

But name calling is fun :D If I meant what I called him do you think I would still be talking to him :wink:

I just dont appriciate people calling me a bullshiter. bullshiter is a big word on JW.

And when someone calls me somehting I give them the royal treatment mate, Ill cover them in more shit then they ever have been :wink:

Thanks man, I needed that, just for the sake of supporting my argument,, which most people in this thread still dont get lol.

Not a chance, if it aint rice, it aint nice in Super GT. :wink:

Sorry didnt get online for the past few days coz my modem was down.

1st thing first, let get it straight. I didnt start calling by anybody a liar. i started by saying and someone suddenly get touchy. And I said "...I THINK...", not flat out accusing you of being a liar. You're the one who 1st call me a fucking idiot, I didnt even resort to swearing in my posts :roll:. I also said bring out the FACTS or at least a credible source of somesort to prove your argument which till now you didnt. What you did was misintepreting/assuming what the rules are. Everybody who read the thread seems to understand it, which is beyond me why you didnt. How the hell am I going to take you seriously when you cant even read properly? And am I wrong when i said you'll prolly never watch a JGTC race? Am I wrong when i said you didnt know the intricate detail of a JGTC cars? Am I wrong when I said you didnt know the innerworkings of SuperGT teams and races?

Read the rules again, where did it said that the cars have to use traditional pattern H boxes? You only assume that since autoboxes arent allowed in JGTC and must thought sequential gearboxes are semi auto gearboxes. You want me to explain the difference between semi automatic, full automatic and sequential gearbox? I'm not an engineer and I dont pretend to, but the simplest explanation that I can find is pick up a copy of any WRC game for Playstation2 and play it. After a while you should know the difference.

You didnt know what exactly all the controls in the cockpit does and assume that the soft hard lever stands for adjusting the suspension. It clearly states are not allowed. Wowm I guess you' must be one of JGTC race engineers since you know "exactly" what it did. And I ask you a question, if the rules clearly states that adjustement are not allowed, what engineer would be a stupid enough to jeopardize a $30million factory effort by labelling a component that cleary illegal and can result disqalification? It could be for adjusting the LSD, diffrentials, verocity of the viscous clutch; who knows? Unless you're part of the team you dont.

I answered every single accusation that you made. Please read the thread back. I shoot down the telemetry argument, the TCS (and btw should'nt the TCS be more apparent on corner exits rather than the entry?), the MaccaF1, the "ridicoulous bodykits", the Lemans comparison, and yes, a real Prodrive F550 get it ask kicked all the time in JGTC and in some track (particularly tight like sugo) even a GT300 lapped faster than during the races. A FIA-GT viper was run in JGTC but in GT300 class since they tried to run it unrestricted against GT500 in suzuka during off season test but it lapped the track 2 sec faster than a restricted GT500 NSX with a 3L V6 NA engine. And if it run 2 sec faster on unrestriced 700bhp, imaginie the laptime with 500bhp restriction. Not to mention the weight handicapped.

You dont even know what a slipper clutch/viscous clutch is? OMG you're beyond help. Please ask you smart race engineer buddies on what it is. The other name for it is back torque limiter.

Did i ever disagree on this? Have you actually been reading? I said they are there, I'm not denying it. I said adjusting these shits manually took a lot of skills.
For eg. You can fly an F117 without the computer and adjusting the wings manually, but even the most skilled pilot would crash after 30 minutes taking off. It's impossible to fly it without computers making fine adjustment to the wing every milisecond.
Same case senario, you can made every single part of the car adjustable for the driver, but at the end of the day he might not touch anything at all because he knows he'll fuck things up (his race setup). It's impossible to adjust everything MANUALLY on the fly during a race and overtaking 50 cars (which 2/3 are the GT300 cars which are lot slower on the corners) that are on track at the same time. The only chance of overtaking GT300 cars are on the corners because their braking distance, topspeed and accel are almost similar with GT500 cars. You watch lemans and I know you know that most dangerous place to overtake a car is at the corners. Now, if theres a program on the car that changes all the setup/setting of the car by a mere flick of the switch I can said that you're right. bit thats not the case in JGTC, you have to adjust "everything" manually. If the manual adjustment is done by a handle manipulated by the software, then maybe I'll agree with you. BUT the rules clearly state every adjustable part must be connected mechanically.

And i didnt even get to the weight handicapped system which help to level the playing field significantly. It offers a much closer racing and action pack weekend than any ALMS races.

So please... I didnt dig a hole. And most of the observers in this discussion agrees. You are the one who's digging the hole. Yes, you manage to quite "owned" yourself.

edit: oh btw my Motec software was supplied with the copy of GTR. Yes, there are datas coming in and I'm still learning to read it with help from guys at black hole. I'm a serious sim racer too....

That Was Fun Hearing U 2 Squabble Oh Well Still Dnt Like JGTC Coz They Took The Awesome Xanavi Skyline Out Loved That Thing To Bitz Oh Well F1 Jus 4Weeks Away. :D