Audi quits power race
 

Audi’s S and RS ranges will no longer offer more power than the equivalent models from AMG or BMW M-Power. Stephan Reil, the General Manager of Development at Quattro Gmbh, the company responsible for Audi’s RS models, claimed that, ‘continuing to increase the power outputs is not the way forward. With more power the car normally gets heavier and then you need more power again.’

Taking a sideswipe at AMG, which recently launched the 603bhp S65 AMG, Reil said ‘with a rear-wheel-drive car, all you succeed in doing is lighting up the yellow traction control sign. Our drivetrain allows us to transfer the power to the road.’

Reil said the Quattro Gmbh brand will develop cars that combined high power outputs with ‘outstanding driving dynamics and road handling.’ Audi is planning to adopt a new naming structure (SQ3 to SW8) for its sporting models.

from AUTOCAR

............so?

That's the same route BMW's M division took when they produced the new M5. I totally agree.

This is exactly why there still isn't a car that can dethrone the McLaren F1, because that car was about properly balancing weight, power, and aerodynamics.

the lambo and ferrari do have the chassis to cope with the power.... MB arguarbly dont. But i do agree, porsche and BMW have much better ethics with regards to power and handling. Dont get me wrong, MB and Audi are very refined but their "sports" models are all power and no chassis

Theoretically, there actually is no limit to a chassis ability to handle power, but certain things will have to be compromised, most notably the driver's overall control of the vehicle, and ride quality. Ferrari and Lambo don't masquerade their cars as being comfortable - its a sports car, it'll be harsh, take it or leave it. Which is why they can keep pumping up the power, and with continuous improvements to aerodynamics, actually keep it on the road.

The sedan makers on the other hand, don't have that luxury. Imagine being able to make something that is spacious yet compact, fast but accessible, quick but controllable, has seating for at least 4, gracious headroom and legroom, a big boot, be reasonably quiet, supremely comfortable, complete with all the modern amenities, AND should be able to take on corners with the finesse of an olympic ice skater, even when its going at seemingly silly speeds.

Its a massive task of engineering, and I think the engineers have finally realized that you can't compute against physics. Something that weighs the heavier side of 2 tonnes, with 5 passengers, and a full boot, might not be able to take that 60mph corner. Hence the need to properly balance weight, power, and aerodynamics.

Which means that at this rate, Mercedes's engineers will realize this after... oh... 10 more years? :)

I thought at the rate the manufactures are doing....by the time...say 10yrs later all cars would have an average of over 400hp hehe. I guess they are trying to be realistic.

Indeed

Good.

It's about time someone stopped the foolishness that Mercedes has been going on with for the past few years with AMG. Cars need to be losing weight, not gaining power (well, they can have more power...) while packing on 100s of kg! 8)

Thats a wise step from Audi. I totally agree with them. Why do you need a car with 600+hp (At least normal people don´t :wink: )? I think the next RS6 will have about 500hp. Nobody actually needs more. Where will it end when each new model has to be stronger than the previous one or the new one from another company? Instead the companys should rather concentrate on building lighter cars so that they won´t have to increase the power to get a faster car :!:

The way I see it, BMW is still leading the race because they've had this philosophy for longer than MB and Audi.

pppppffffffff, you're all pussies, that's the beauty of Mercedes-Benz, having power you will never use, just to know that you have more then the other guy is enough.

But still my lifegoal is to work with MB, and I'll take your remarks as suggestions.




lol(I hope)

Or everyone could lower weight, up the horsepower, and get a stronger chassis! :P

J/k

ahahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha, 1001 HP :wink:

For me the german brands have some complete different points of view.......for instance the BMW Motorsport models aim has been always to get a very efficient cars in every kind of roads.....such as twisty roads, motorways...as a result.....the car has to have some good handling, some good traction, to be the car driveable on wet.......whereas audis new aim goes in a similar way...just to have well balanced cars, and get the same importance to the power as for the handling

On the other hand....the last and famous merc AMGs aim has been complete a different one....just to get the fastest and most powerful cars on the motorways and street line....at the end of the day........just for the straight line the power of the car is the most important thing regardless other aspects.....and other aspects such as the handling, the traction, etc.......arent just so important for the AMG division

Possibly in a straight line, thanks to their use of turbos. Poor ol' BMW insists on doing it the hard way by going through the natural aspirated route... imagine if they "cheated" like Audi... ;)

On a serious note: Audi beat BMW? No. Plain and simple. There are countless of M3's being raced the world over, and Brands Hatch on a family weekend is a clear example. You will see about 5-15 M3's on a good day (lots of visitors) at the track, and not a single RS4 or S4... those are usually kept at the parking lot. ;)

In britain, there are far more M3's at track days than S4's and RS6's - they're usually kept from company managers etc. Eg at rockingham you can go on an M3 experience along with a lotus elise, you can go on any audi related track day. These two, along with caterhams are probably the most common track day car by a long way, in britaint at least

Well I can think of one S4 that is not a track car ... whistles softly while looking away...

well your regular S4, although i dont deny it being a good performance car and it laps on par with an M3, it has a tendency to understeer thanks to its 4WD on track and just isnt a good a track weapon as the M3.

I think i can safely say the UK has a bigger track day culture than and IMO, and of most in the UK, the M3 is by far the more popular track car. Not neccesarily faster than a S4, but definately more fun and more of an enthusiasts motor.

C'mon you drive a TT, maybe a bit biased towards Audi ;) No doubt yours is heavily modded, but the only people i see that drive TT's are rich 20-30 year old women ;)

I dont see an Audi S4 GTR either ;)

Do a sort of "Pimp my Ride" but hold the rice and plain stupidity. :mrgreen:

At this rate my car might become the next victim of the JW photoshop a car section ... LOL

I think the S4 will be pretty good and safe around the circuit but the M3 would be surely more fun! Particularly if you get your hands on a E30 M3 :)

Its called strategy bud! .... That's why he gets all the chicks in Chic-ago ... he meets them at the service center and rolls out his charm while saying in a sexy voice "So you have second gear problems ... well my gearbox works fine would you like to try it"

Exactly, thats why more track day entusiasts opt for it rather than an S4 even if the S4 is just as fast ;)

[quote]
Its called strategy bud! .... That's why he gets all the chicks in Chic-ago ... he meets them at the service center and rolls out his charm while saying in a sexy voice "So you have second gear problems ... well my gearbox works fine would you like to try it"
[quote]

LOL, strategy maybe.....

at least your in a mans car ;)

[quote="mindgam3"]Exactly, thats why more track day entusiasts opt for it rather than an S4 even if the S4 is just as fast ;)

[quote]
Its called strategy bud! .... That's why he gets all the chicks in Chic-ago ... he meets them at the service center and rolls out his charm while saying in a sexy voice "So you have second gear problems ... well my gearbox works fine would you like to try it"
So lets review the "facts" so far
1. TT is not a man's car
2. Everso uses the car to get chicks

Elementary my dear Watson ... it means that Everso is ... drum roll ... a Lesbian?

I don't think increasing the horsepower has anything to do with providing more pleasure for the customer. Most people that drive AMG's or RS's are usually rich fat cats (generally speaking) and I call all these horsepowers prestige horsepowers. Nothing more, nothing less. It's just to be able to casually throw your keys on the bar and announce that you have more BHP than the next man.

Since not all people are accomplished drivers (see fats cats and prize wives) they have to litterally put tons of electronic systems to keep all that power in ever condition on the road, without causing too much danger and thus too many lawsuits.

I say: away with the prestige BHP and give us back some honest, useable and controlable horsepower.

Audi are still the ones winning DTM. Also I think they won Le Mans in the presence of BMW? :)

Someone here (other than me) definitely has taste. 8)

Excatly! Next thing you know you'll get............................................... ........................................an M5! :P

^^ An M5 aint exactly a poster child for "lean cuisine" ......

But it's not a Sumo wrestler, unlike some other car we know *cough RS6*cough, either.

^^ the old M5 would be nicer - the Euro one - 3.8 litre straight six weighing in at about 3800 lbs or so ....

Too bad we never got it here officially

Who is the fastest depends on the driver but I think we all can agree that M-cars got more potential than S-cars being a good trackcar, also more involving to drive (yes , I talk about stock streetcarscars not modified or racing cars).

Yes, this is true.

BUT,
1) Turbo cars are easy and cheaper to mod, and with huge upgrades. So is very difficult to find a Audi without 40-50hp more than stock.
2) BMW are tricky to be driven in real world enviroment and in tracks, only very good drivers can explore the full potential.
3) In track days here, only the professionals run faster times than amateur drivers in ("equivalet") Audis.

I think that the porpouse is different. Audi S/RS have 98% of the performance (on tracks compared to M) but you could use it for 100% of the time (plaging Mr Clarckson).

On the streets, they (Ms) don't have chance.




BAck to the topic, I think that less weight is always better, but more power on a car with less weight is even better :twisted:

BMW's tricky to drive? Where do u get that idea from? They've got masses of grip and when the grip does break it goes into controllable oversteer, the audi is more prone to understeer.

lol, im not basing everything on top gear, ive driven an M3 around a track, and considering i own a 1.2 clio, got a better write up than an M3 owner who was there i think i can safely say they're not very hard to drive and control at speeds.

I also said a S4 is faster around a track, but IMO if you take a bog standard M3 and S4, the M3 is the better drivers car and is more fun to drive on a track. On a road situation i'd put them about even as you dont push the as hard to notice any understeer/oversteer. Dont get me wrong, the S4 is a great car, but i think the combination of being slightly lighter and being RWD makes the M3 not neccesarily the better car.... but the better drivers car

Damn I must be driving Miss Daisy out here ... I havent drifted my car yet ... Sameer the throttle is the pedal on the right ... push it down all the way son! :oops:

LOL - just a few months ago everyone was bragging about how between BMW, Benz and Audi there was no end to the power wars in sight... not that Audi has lost the race, everyone is "Yeah - that's a good thing..." "There is such a thing as too much power" - "Audi was never about power"... ;)

Let's see what the BMW crowd and Benz crowd have to say when those 2 announce that they are abandoning the power wars... :P :lol:

BMW were never in the power war.... well they are but they design chassis and cars that are good enough to cope with them. I cant really see MB dropping out of it, would be amusing to see them do so though ;)

Actually if they lop off a cylinder or two they could have pushed that lump in the MP4-19 and done a better job - notice I didnt mention MP4-19B

Actually I've tried but the tires (Bridgestone S03-PP) and the quattro grip very well...

The poor performance of the MP4-19 was due to a crap aero package more than the engine though :P

I dont think they could get the heavy weight MB road engines down to a measely 90kg either ;)

they are tricky to drive 8-9/10th on real roads. Real roads have bumps, oil after a blind corner, dust where you didn't expected, grass from.... etc.

Quattro and whatever AWD systems (like used in EVOS, Scoobys etc), allow drivers to use much more the performance of the car in most situations where a RWD would be, at least, risky.

Ahem ... the frequent parking of the MP4-19 on the side of the road was not due to aero ... actually I am not sure if it was the same thing that hit them - once it was some defective engine parts, the other was poor packaging around the engine caused to overheat. I am glad they are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel

i suspect the engine failures were due to pushing the engine too far in a gamble for more power to make up for the crap aero package. Either way it was a poor effort from McLaren but nice to see they picked it up with the 19B and hopefully will be up at the top where they should be next season ;)

Actually, after I thought about it, I do have to agree with you. Turbos aren't cheating at all. I mean, you can match a great NA engine with some intelligent use of turbos, especially in the areas of bhp, and its even better torque-wise.

Thing is, more torque means you'll need a sturdier, and ultimately heavier, transmission. So you end up adding weight. Then there's the issue of engine wear, whereas a properly maintained NA engine will last as long as you possibly want, a turbo engine will need replacements parts during the course of its lifetime, and eventually, the entire engine will have to be rebuilt.

So... it isn't cheating at all. Its actually a handicap. ;)

RE: Track days

Obviously our track day experiences are rather different. I might have exaggerated the "no Audis on track" comment, but I do maintain that I really see far more BMWs than Audis, at least in my experience. Obviously, with you, its the other way around. If you ask me, until we can actually find irrefutable worldwide statistical evidence to support our arguments, we should just leave this argument for the moment. :)

Ciao.

For me the mercs will always be a prestige car along with the Audi,BMW etc.
There are exceptions(CLK DTM road car) but most of them are bought by older, richer people who are rewarding themselves for a life of hard toil.
They want to be cossetted in the lap of luxury; not put up with a harsh ride and insane peaky power delivery.

And not many are mech modified(in Aust at least uber cars here Sl65,M5,RS6 plus etc) simply because they have more than enough power for road work and most will never see a track.
To risk such a significant investment just does not make sense to them and I can see their point.
Odds are if they can afford one of these great cars then they can easily get an elise, caterham, ariel,radical,GT40 rep, cobra rep for their track fun.

But I love the work of MTM, Kleenmann,Brabus and the rest; they show that there are people who desire a more finely honed weapon god love em! :twisted:

Great to see the passion that you guys have; true driver spirit!

Do the Audi cars require electronic mods to oversteer or just skill?
Motor mag here in OZ test them (S4,RS6 etc) in the performance car of the year test and if I remember correctly Cam Mcconnville(sic)(V8 supercar driver) had a hard time getting them to do anything(not like left foot brake etc).

Sorry to be a pain brembo but is turning off the driver aids done by the simple press(s?) of a button or is it hardcore modifications of electronics?
Does it completely disable everything or is there a "nanny" mode present?
thanks

Hey everso, love the TT mate; a future classic shape for sure.
Can you left foot brake(or trail brake) it on the track without brake force dist or similar intervention?
Does the ESP completely disable or does it just raise the threshold?
Love Audi but have been put off by all the gadgets spoiling trackday fun.

Man, this thread is going to fast for me, and its so much to read :(

how many PS is too much?
612 in SL65

Man. Talk about having polar opposite opinions. :)

Let's just say I pretty much disagree with 95% of what you said, but I respect your opinion, and I'll leave it as such. :)

I still prefer NA engines over turbos or superchargers, but like how some people prefer a Benz to a BMW or an Audi for whatever reasons they may have, I'll choose to not engange in a debate that will drag this thread into the doldrums.

Mind you, the wife and I fancy the upcoming TT... that might be the first turbo car we get. ;)

Bout time engineering took over again rather than strapping turbos, supercharges and increasing displacement. Thats why i like BMW for instance