American cars and curves.
 

I always heard the guys on Top Gear saying that american cars hate curves and i remember JC saying on the GT40 review that americans "never made a car that goes around corners properly".

Where and when this idea started and why??

Flame suit ready

:P

It all started probably when every american car had soft suspensions and a chassis tuned for long highway hauling :D

it's what we call a cliché now though, since many present cars have quite a good handling even compared to European or Japanese standard

So there is no need guys for the old usual Europ vs US war please :D

Dodge Charger cant turn but haul ass on straights!

The corvette, camaro, and firebird has almost always been the lone exception (till the viper ect). Clarkson didnt like the vette(and wouldnt like the maro) because while they almost always handled well(ignoring second gen maros and before) they also were so stiff that there was no driver comfort.

..it's always so funny to these threads.... let's see a mnodel comaprison... "bad handeling compared to what...?"

A 1980 Golf I diesel 1300 vs similar period Corvette or a similar period Chevy Caprice?

I mean while a 198911 was a failry decent car overall - the 1980 Golf 1300 sucked donkey balls - just like the 1980 Chevy Caprice.

Don't even try talk abouit the 1980 Ford Escort - or the 1980 1100cc Fiat etc etc.

Let's fast forward to 2004 - a base Golf III sucks just as badly as a base Chevy Malibu Maxx... I have recently compared the 2.

Now let's compare the 2004 911 Turbo and the 2004 Z06... pretty close comparison isn't it.

The Europeans ALWAYS compare Euro-sporty cars against American comfy-cruisers of entry level cheap crap.

Let's go look at a 1955 V8 1955 Chevy sedan vs a 1955 Opel Kapitan/Rekord - you will be shocked to know by how far the 1955 Chevy would obliterate the the Opel.

In 1/4 mile, top end and handeling.

Anyway - pointless argument.

hahaha

very pointless but whats this about the Porsche and the Z06? i think the Z06 would die against the Turbo. but there is that 50 something thousand above the Z06 for a little bit more performance.

pretty pointless though

Americans are fat!
American cars cant turn!
European chicks are skinny!
French are pussies!


All of those are just extremly generalized statements. Are they necesseraly true? No.

Dont forget that they make less cars in entire America then they do in Europe so the possibility of finding more good handling cars in Europe is bigger.

anyway pointless argument. Dont wanna get in it....I cant find my flame suit.

ah geez... not this arguement again.

A snippet from Auto Motor und Sport's (yes, a German magazine) review on the Caddy XLR:

This luxury roadster coupé with its 4.6 liter V8 and 326 horsepower is out to conquer territory from its arch rival the Mercedes SL, for instance with a price tag of 89 thousand Euros in Germany. This car offers everything you could want from an American sports car, everything and a bit more.The Cadillac XLR astonishes with its excellent chassis tuning and impeccable traction, even by European standards. The handling of this car that peaks at a speed of 250 kilometers per hour profits from an aluminum chassis with a well balanced drive shaft distribution, a wide track and a low center of gravity. Precision steering rounds off the driving fun.

Yes, American cars can handle, even the Germans think so. Generally, AMS is pretty objective and thorough on their reviews so I trust what they say.

Oh boy. ... not another person who didn't know the Z06 lapped Nurburgring in 7'56"... ;)

I know.. but skidpad wise and slalom wise the corvette and camaro are traditionally the best handling in their price range or below. The stiff is in terms of nvh and handling over bumps. The difference between track driving and street driving. (note this discludes kit cars and things like the elise.. which are a little different..) Id take a vette over a golf, escort, ect of a similar year any day as long as we are on smooth race track.


Ill take a stock 80s corvette or camaro against a similar priced car of the same year.. Very few cars could beat them. By 1988 the camaro was pulling .91 on the skidpad.

Everyone here must remember, handling on the street is different then handling on the track. On the track, the stiffer suspension is king. On the street.. you dont want that stiffer suspension. You dont want soft either, but you get the picture.
As for suspension design I can attest that both the camaro and vette were quite sophisticated for their time. (camaros 3rd and 4th gen versus their respected years competition) (corvette versus there years respected competition)

In the choice between a late 80s rx7 for instance and a late 80s vette.. On the race track the vette would eat the rx7 for breakfast stock.. Its when you start dealing with bumps that the vettes stiff suspension doesnt deal well. So if we were driving around the canyons the vette wouldnt be the best option. Its a question of usage.

Yes, it's a pointless argument but here's my two penneth' worth anyway.

A 911 TURBO would murder any corvette ever made, or for that matter, that will ever be made.

I think America is on the right track with their cars now, but thats only very recently, the new caddy is on the mark apparently, but just look at the STS compared to an equivalent model in Europe, say the BMW 7 series:

STS + corner = :cry:

745i + corner = :D

Yeah, but the STS was a terrible car... ur comparing apples to oranges here. Why not compare the CTS to say a 3-series or even 5 or 7... then how do they handle :D You cant selectively pick a bad handling car from one side of the ocean, and a good one from the other... be fair.

I don't want to create a war, but i was very curious about when it all started.

I'm not making a affirmation. :?

But it's funny to see how people start arguing about something which i thought it would be easy to explain. :D

I am being fair. And i am talking about the old style 7 not the bangeld one. When the STS was in production, the 7 was an equivalent over here - both big luxury cruisers aimed at the same buyer.

Even you admit that the STS was a terrible car.

Like i said, it seems you boys are now heading in the right direction (CTS) but even then, a 3 series would walk all over it in the corners.

So what do you think is a fair comparison to a car like the '97 535i my family owns? I bet your hard-pushed to find a similarly good all rounder.

hey RC where can i get the list of the NURB laps?

Apples to oranges here.. The regular 911 turbo would be raped by the enzo or 360 cs modena.. but there both way over its price as well.

As for the sts.. last I heard there making a new one thats much better, with a v version.

Things may change soon in other words.

i don't like european cars cause they have shitty black bumpers and mirrors that don't match the rest of the car. :roll:

Really? And you have statistical, racing and other proof of this?

Everyone will admit the STS was no super-car and that while they were both luxo-cruisers, that did THAT well, the Beemer had some extras thrown in.

It would seem that many of the STS buyers have flip-flopped between BMW, Lexus, Caddie and Mercs and probably have never used the "great handling" that the BMW's and Benzs have supposedly had.

The class of buyers you are referring to places a lower value on "handling" than many other folks - simply witness the sheer number of AMG Benz's selling that are rocketships in straight lines, but not the that great handlers (because with that weight they can't be).

The M3 and M5 may have met their match in the CTS-V, and the 330ci is taking attention of the CTS - but you are in a dream world if you think a BMW 318i is a "race track ready car" in stock form.

Now for the answer that ANY well read car enthusiast would know - there is no match for a '97 535 - why? Because the US car makers for many, many years focused on one flag-ship model per range (if you were lucky) and then bestowed on all the other cars in the range a generic range of fittings and finish.

So, there might be some merit in comparing the cornering ability of a 518i to a top line Cadillac Deville of the same generation - not a 535i - Why? Because while the 518i may outhandle the Caddy, fort the same price it out luxes even the 535i and some Benz's of the same era.

The cars on either side of the pond were made to a different set of criteria.. and EVERYONE knows and admits this.

It is only yahoos that want to keep arguing and belaboring an admitted point.

Now, back to your "911 will destroy any Corvette present or future comment" - how did you arrive at that conclusion again? ;)

...and no a/c and they only have a radio... :roll:

A bit general, but fair point. You mean like this:
http://www.murphy.com.au/images/ka.jpg

let's not forget that all european cars have 12" rims. :roll:

All crap? 12" wheels?
I think not.
The best of British:
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6797/m18.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9666/m143.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5391/m145.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2969/m148.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2991/m1410.jpg

Oh yes - that is just what the Transport Ministry wants everyone to be driving down the M5.. :roll:

You guys are just lucky you still have cars in the UK.. :P

I am sure the crown would like you to all take the bus... :lol: ;)

When the hell did I say that, you sure you read my post?

I said a 3 series would walk over a american equivalent, i never ONCE mentioned anything about a bottom of the range 318 being a supercar on the track.

I'll give you credit on having one hell of a fu**ing imagination though.

I ain't just talking about pace with regards to the porsche V corvette example. When it comes to cornering comparison, the corvette would wallow all over the place, like a jelly on rollerskates. Like nearly all american cars do.

Like you say though, thats just because of the market they were designed for. In America, you go everywhere on highways, so naturally you need big, powerful and comfortable cars, that can swoosh it's way across states in days.

Whereas, in Europe, the whole place is smaller, and we have many more small twisty roads per square mile/km. So therefore we want better handling cars, and slightly less cruiser orientated models, as we have less long straight, roads.

It's a similar story with motorsport. I gather that drag racing is the biggest sport in the USA, but most other motorsports involve lots of power and few corners.
In europe, track sports are favoured more, with every man and his dog now taking their humble family run around to Thruxton and Silverstone, so naturally we want cars that can handle corners better.

It's a war between two sides. Some people want different things, it's just a matter of taste and needs. Thats all i'm saying.

I'm sure they would, thats why they put friggin bus lanes on the outsidde lanes of motorways!!
Mental idiots.

Now, now. Stop paraphrasing Jeremy Clarkson. :lol:

Who you reffering to?

You jackass... with comments like this...

You really have lot to learn.

Let's hope and prey you buy a 911 TT one day, and line up against a Z06 at your favourite local race track.

And then let's hope you bet your car's title on the outcome.. because you may very well end up walking home.

Be careful with sweeping ill-informed statements like your above... because when you get proved wrong - you wiull be eating humble-pie on the bus-ride home.

Well cockcheese... show me the "amercian equivalent" to the 318i that get's beaten by it?

I just saw you touting upper-end-of-the-range cars like the 535i and 745i... and I am saying lets do a true apples for apples.. I mean you are the one claiming "all" American cars suck... :P

So what? the guy's funny.

... not unlike Micheal Moore... your point?

Wow...hehe...this is the reason I try not to get embroiled in debates like this...people have such deeply-seated beliefs that nothing is likely to sway either side.


All the same, here are my two cents....

A standard Corvette wouldn't stand much of a chance against a 996 Turbo, in a straight line or otherwise...however, if you choose to match up the "apples" in both cases, you end up with the Z06 and the 911 Turbo...each as the top of the realistic range (of course you could call in the GT2 or the GT3, but for everyday useability, it has to be the TT). The Z06 would give the TT a run for its money in a straight line, depending on the driver, it might even outrun it. On a racetrack the positions would likely be reversed, the 996 TT is an extremely rapid car, I don't think that anyone on this site could argue against that, but the Z06 is known for having extremely high handling tolerances...it has the torque and torque curve to help it out of corners at least as much as the 4wd system in the TT. The lowest skidpad number for the Z06 that I've seen was on a previous generation (385bhp) version and that was a paltry 0.97g, more recently I've seen as high as 1.01. The TT tends to hover between 0.92 and 0.96g and I've not seen higher. The TT is to me still the more desirable car, better-finished, better resale value, nicer interior trimmings, a bit more subtle, and certainly more capable across a winding mountain road thanks to the 4wd system.

The Vette would probably outdo it at a trackand it will certainly return better fuel economy numbers thanks to its insane gearing. The cars are built to fit different niches, realize it, come to terms with it. It's not really worth arguing over, as nobody is going to win!

IMO, all the american cars for made for straight :)
i drive an import myself 8) since i'm asian. u know gotta support my own people :lol:

There you go again.

If you read my posts i am saying that the vast majority off american cars are a little dodgy when it comes to the twisty stuff.

I am also saying that the newer american cars are much better.

Oh, and was there any need for the "cockcheese" you bellwart. :D

Seriously though, I am not trying to launch an all out war, I am just giving MY opinions and views.

Cheers
Tom

Tosser... :P

...all this and I aint even a yank... :lol:

Id argue at the moment america has asia beat hands down in the handling market. Almost all their rwd sports cars have been discontinued. I dont exactly see an mr2 taking a corvette(stock for stock) on the track. The supras long gone. The skyline isnt available here..

The wrx and evo would not beat a zo6 on the track (or even come close for that matter). The nsx, maybe, but I doubt it. The rx8 is no match for the vette.

What else is there?

And yet again.. how much does a 911 turbo cost.. now how much is the zo6.. yeah... theres a fair comparison.

The closest car I can think of in the world to the zo6 in price versus overall performance(including turns) is bmws m cars.

American well handling cars (that are currently in production): cts-v, gto(its engine is american, its setup has been modified slightly.. its debatable), vette, viper.

cars in the pipeline of america that are touted to handle and are rwd.. Solstice, sts-v.. and some other stuff.. gms global rwd platform is going to have some interesting reprocussions here. You would be suprised at how much the track culture has taken off in america as well. The open track days sell out most of the time.

Also I want to explain something to you guys. I mentioned about stiff and the corvette and camaro.. and track handling versus street handling.

I came across a good discussion of this in terms of camaros recently. For those who don't know, camaros have a stick axle, but one of the best from a design standpoint. So many of you go, its got a solid rear axle.. not an independent.. it sucks.. Well for the street.. yes.. for the track, theres little difference. You see the big difference between the two is that the stick has more unsprung weight and the movement of one side of the axle obviously effects the other side. That being said, the vast majority of this problem is related to driving over irregular road surfaces. Thus the difference between the two isn't that big on a smooth race track.

The same thing with spring rates.. The stiffer the spring the less it follows the path of the road. But the stiffer the less body roll. Thus a race car would not keep up with a decent road car on a bumpy back road.

money is important. the enzo would blow away anything from anywhere.. I mean.. enzo, mclearn f1, f40.. isnt a fair comparison.. americans dont sell cars anywhere near those prices.

Im concerned with handling per money and that you can still buy it new.. we can throw in the skyline.. but not a clue what its price is.

Top america has to offer in history: (in no particular order)
corvette Z06
Dodge Viper GTS
CTS-V
Ford GT
Pontiac Firehawk (the year with the lt4, not the pussy newer model)
89 Turbo transam w/ 1LE suspension pack
Ford SVT Cobra Mustang R
Saleen S7
Mosler MT900
Shelby Series 1


Not a car in that list is under .90 g skidpad. Note I didnt list any tuned cars.. For instance the lightenfelder vette or the ZL1 Camaro. All cars in this list are made by a division of the manufacturer and not an outside company..

You seem to have forgotten the 350Z and the Infinity G35 sedan and coupe...they were deemed better than their BMW competitors as far as performance goes. TVR, if they imported vehicles to the US and Noble are the only manufacturers which have cars in production right now that could compete on a price and performance basis with the Corvettes while also maintaining the exotic nature of the sector. BMW sort of falls down in that department, they're very nice, but not all that special-feeling.

They dont really compete in terms of performance with the Z06.. They are nice though.

I definitly agree.

I just remembered another good handling car that you all might not know of... The Lincoln LS. It was compared to one of the BMW classes, i dont remember which one. It couldve been the 5 or 3 series, i think it was the 3, but not sure... Anyway, it outhandled it without a problem. Theres an american car that didnt really have performance in mind when it was built and can still handle pretty darn good.

Id argue that no one makes cars as good as the italians.. But that still kinda ventures off the "America doesnt make curve handlers" statement.

Id take an enzo over anything, but Im also a tifosi, so go figure.

If you can afford a ferrari, you can afford the full time mechanic to fix it when it breaks.. lol.

I just find it funny that most of the people that say American cars can't handle have never been in one to begin with. Some of you have probably never seen the cars on that list Graywolf made in person. Atleast we get most of the rest of the world's cars. (atleast the good ones :wink: ) Granted most american cars aren't made for track days but they can handle the road around the US just fine they don't need to be driving around the swiss alps or something going around hairpins one after the other we don't have too much of that around these parts of the world. You have to remember that the cars are somewhat built to handle the average conditions of their target market and not too many people are taking their Ford Taurus or Chevy Impala racing through the backroads.

/\/\ yeah we get some detuned cars but then there are the ones that are actually better than the ones they get in their native countries like the EVO VIII and the STi yes ours are better than the japanese versions so you can't really use that excuse. And we are the biggest market for half the car companies if not more in the world so they don't really screw us over that much. atleast we don't get all the crappy deisels. but I'm strayong off subject. You can't say that all our car's can't handle like said previously we produce lesser variety of cars than other countries so if you stack up all the available cars we could have way less crappy handleing cars than European or Japanese companies make correct? You can't say that all European and Japanese cars are made to hug the curves. And besides the point that companies like Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus, even BMW are sports oriented companies the big 3 aren't tied down into that specific category they all started out as companies for the masses and were aimed at affordable transportation which the Germans aren't exactly know for (yes they have some econo buckets) this conversation will never be resolved so everyone must accept that fact and Hell half our cars can more than make up for the lesser cornering ability on the straights anyways :wink:

"you get tuned down versions of the good ones dude, dont mistake that for the good ones, and some of them you didnt or dont get...... "

We got the better version of the lotus elise as well if I recall.

/\/\ no they made it better for US (you can take that US either way U.S. or us) and they decided to give to the rest as a result./\/\

[edit] Shit, wrong post [edit]

Thanks.

And why are two countrymen fighting?

Stop the hating man! :P