makes plenty of sense... downside is, im completely wank at reading my opponent :P good thing im not in a competition sports

Sorry man, if you really believe that wrestling ability alone will grant you a win against a pure striker then I have to refer back to your own words and say that you are living in a dream world.

If what Vovchanchyn shows you call wrestling experiance then I know that much wrestling myself, I would do the same things as he did never having had any formal wrestling experiance...Its kinda common sense...Unless somehow wrestling is all about some higher learning ability :roll:

If thats your opinion, thats your opinion and I respect that...however I dont see this argument going any further, since we clearly have opposite ideas of what it takes to beat the fuck outta someone.

You gotta get rid of the idea that Im a dumb fucking monkey :P

What makes you think I dont know how to read a man? Shit Ive been in the ring enough times to figure out what one is going to do by looking him in the eyes :)

actually....

anybody in the zone can react in .1 seconds... there are tests to prove it even... but in a casual experience, of course Schui will have a slow reaction time... try again after a quali session, and i doubt he's out of the zone.

It has.. many a time.. in UFC and Pride. You continue to avoid talking about the early days of both groups when the strikers got their asses kicked by wrestlers. Selective memory maybe?
In every example youve shown so far Ive seen a wrestler more then hold their own on their feet. I've then seen the striker use wrestling moves to avoid getting their ass beat. If I train a striker for 6 months in grappling.. it will be greater then a wrestler alone. If a professional trains a wrestler in striking for 6 months it goes the other way. No one ever argued that one.. Mixed> all.

Its alot more difficult and no it isnt common sense. It takes hours of practice.. And yes it is some higher learned ability, just like any martial art. If it was that easy anyone could do it. 6 months will allow someone whos great at another thing to get away just long enough to do what they are good at.. They still wont win in the thing theyve practiced. National wrestling champions start when they are under 5, like national martial arts champions.. It isnt learned in a week, a month, or even a year. I wrestled for more then a decade and I still was learning things when I retired.

I was explaining it to Nfinity, not you.. That being said you wouldnt have the experience to read the man on the ground as you havent been there against a professional.. You must practice the situation. The wrestler on the other hand has been trained to watch the movments of the hands at standing.. which was my whole point.

The zone is part of picking up those clues.

Yes, and many times in UFC and pride guys got knocked the fuck out from a spin kick before anything even went down.

Mate you are tripping if you think that you can completly imobilzie my ass by taking me down.

WRESTLERS DONT TRAIN TO TAKE ELBOWS TO THE HEAD!

Its a different sport. I can tell that.

Wreslters dont train against head buts, wrestlers dont train against the defence of any strikes because the sport is not about striking.

How hard is that to figure out?

Gray it would take you hours and months of practice to learn how to counter any strike being a wrestler.

I dont remember a wrestling competition which started of with a guy jump kicking his opponent in the head.

Bigger men then you have made that claim.. Ive held people 3 x my size who were proffessional boxers indefinitly to the ground.. Your tripping if you dont think a wrestler can immobilize your ass.. 90 percent of things once you take a person down are about imobilizing.. If they can use their hands they can get out.. Hand control is number one above all in wrestling.. Its the first and last thing they teach you... and everything in between. If you have no hands.. you cant hit.. If you have no hands you also most likely arent in the position to kick.. AT that point without training its over.

They train to strike at movement and block movement. The difference between reaching for a throw and reaching with a punch is not that far and few between.

Its practice that makes each move a reaction that you don't even have to think about to execute.

UFC isn't gay and is probably the closest thing the Western Civilization has to the Roman Gladiators.

Complete bull shit it would.
A wrestler is trained for the hand movements and to dodge them. Thats alot of the counter to striking.
You arent trained at all on the ground.. Not even a little. For one your showing a double standard by arguing months and hours.. For two theres quite obviously for anyone who knows about wrestling much more paralel dodging strikes then grappling. ITs much more natural for one.. For two if your watching for twitches for hand movements to shoot or throw, your still watching to counter the hands.. Its already a learned retained skill. The only variation is certain moves wont work. I can remember boxing with a roomate several years ago. Granted he only did Jiu Jitsu (wont get into my feeling about that).. I was able to block almost every punch he threw and hit him about 50 percent of the time..And I was boxing not shooting or throwing, hardly my strong point. My punches probably didnt hurt much as much as they would with training.. But its a definite example of the effect of watching for reactions.

[quote="graywolf624"]You must have been fighting tomato cans. Cause someone 3 times your size can just sit on you and beat you. I also highly doubt you would have anywhere near the strength that a fit 250lb guy would. Its like me fighting a 140lb. He cant punch hard enough, or have the raw strength to take me down.

Oh rly...

You clearly must have never been properly punched at then. :roll:

Your too funny man......I mean really :lol:

How are you going to stop a man whose drop kicking you? I mean really...How?

Are drops kicks soemthing you train against?

I guess you got some wrestling moves to stop a 200lb object flying in the air at you and then take him to the ground.

HAHAHA... You still are severely underestimating wrestling. There are a number of immobilization techniques which match leg power to arm power.. In that case theres very little chance of the guy getting up. All you have to do to immobilize is take out one leg of the chair. All the power in the world wont get up from that.

For the record the guy in question benched 350 lbs (collegiate football player and former boxer) when I use to spot him.. My puny ass held him there for 8 mins.. he finally gave up. I'm not weak by any means.. But there are techniques that make it much easier.

Or maybe no one properly tried to throw you.

So you had a 'no rule' fist fight with a big football jock and you kicked his ass?

Well I always knew football players couldnt fight :P

Drop kick.. Youve been watching too much professional wrestling. Kick itself.. Catch the damn thing.. Its done all the time in mwa, even by poor wrestlers. It isnt that difficult. One could ask you the same question though. If I hit you with a bullrush shot what are you going to do(I guess the best way to describe it would be to make you watch professional wrestling ironically enough.. Bill goldberg used an exagerated version of said move in the wwf. Your going down hard if your hit with it... Or how about a hip throw.. OR a front head lock. Merkel? What then? Hard to kick when your ass is swinging through the air 5 feet off the ground.

just out of curiosity, sfd, have you ever been the subject of a properly done armlock? i doubt the strongest guy in the world would feel like resisting much if that happened to him...

No.. I challenged a guy 3 x my size who was a former boxer and football player.. to get up after I got ahold of him on the ground.
That was it.. He could do anything he wanted. He didnt get up.
He was running his jaw just like you.. Making a big mistake.. underestimating someone from a different sport.

Graywolf642 vs. SFDMALEX Fight Fight Fight!
 

Graywolf642 vs. SFDMALEX Fight Fight Fight!
 

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You do realize that this entire thread you've just been saying it isnt that difficult, and that you basicly have the solution for world hunger :P

You gonna catch my leg?

Ok Im gonna catch your throw :roll:

Kinda like you say you are trained to see body movement.

Well Im trained to hit any shit that is coming at me from any angle and any direction :P

Wrestlers catch legs all the time. Thats part of the training.. If it comes towards you or away, we are trained to catch the leg either way. YOu dont catch throws.

Theres no arguement there.. If a wrestler can only strike you hes screwed.. But he has more weapons and more defenses that are ingrained then you think.

Oh hold-fucking-on there buddy.

I never once under estimated your ass.

You've been underestimating me and alikes the whole thread, thats kinda the whole argument.

Kinda like you cant fight any man on earth and beat anyone who hasnt practiced formal wrestling.


Oh so you didint actually have a bare knuckle fight with a man 3x your size...

Why did you even bring it up then?

I never said formal wrestling.. I said wrestling grappling training. And I didnt say me.. I said Im old and retired.. I said an inshape top of his game top wrestler.

You said you could get up and off the ground. A man 3x my size tried that and failed.. He was allowed to punch, kick, bite.. whatever.. He didnt manage to get off a single one.. I had his hands behind his back as quick as you can punch.

I also told you a few of my experiences against strikers.. Including one against the Jiujitsu roomate.. AS I said, i have a low opinion of it.. But he didnt do to well at striking me with gloves on either.. and my striking knowledge is limited to fights when I was 10.

You dont kick in wrestling, you catch legs, but I dont think you are trained to catch legs that are above the waist line.

Sometimes I want a man to catch my leg, I know plenty of ways to take advantage of that.

You catch my leg I fall on the ground whilst sticking the other leg out and use that in a number of ways to kick you.

I dont catch throws because I am trained to stay up and not go down. Regardles if the action that you mifht take against me.

Just like you are trained to catch any movement, Im trained to hit anything that moves regardles of how they are moving.

Ok, but by the man lying on the floor he is in your domain, one that you are a pro at, I woudlnt expect him to win that fight....but if I biting and puching and kicking is allowed then I wouldnt honestly know till I tried my self.

By you standing and not having me on the ground with my arms pinned behind my back you are in my domain.

Actually.. All the time we do.

To which your trained to catch the other leg. In wrestling what you are describing, sans the actual kick is one of the most common ways to try to escape from a take down (in one form of wrestling where facing your back to the ground loses it, rather then escaping entirely being the key, there are at least 3 different styles with different points and rules). Wrestlers are trained to catch the second one as the man twists and drive to the ground.

The man didnt have his arms pinned to start.. and your arguement was you could get up from that.

As for take down.. Theres tricks to that too.. I use to have a heavyweight in my practice.. So under 300 lbs.. He was not all that great at wrestling.. I could take him down and pin his ass. Its all about leverage and angles, not muscle.

I have failed to see any olympic wrestling match were I saw any from of kicks...

Neither have I seen it in highschool.


If you catch both my legs both your arms are occupied, and I am lying on my back with my fists free to do whatever I wish.


To me the key is what I can do during the take down, not when Im lying on my stomach.

No.. By standing middle distance Im in your domain.. Closer in the pendulum swings back to a wrestler. Furtherout it depends on who has the greater speed.

And you think Im not trained on inside fighting?

How does me throwing an arm punch uppercut aid you in some takedown I dunno....

When you do a shot the feet can go either way.. Your trained to gain control of them. A kick hurts if your hit, but theres not much difference in catching a fast moving leg, comming to you or away.. And since throws sometimes often involve legs they can and do get caught at head height.

Even you have to admit your not going to get very far in that situation... No power behind your punches from that angle.

Then of course theres the upper body throws.. You swing with your fist, the wrestler ducks (definitly possible as thats the setup for 90 percent of shots, though its a fast reach not a fist.. he takes your momentum.. hips in.. and your flinging through 5 feet of air.. At that point you cant hit.. or at least not hard enough to make a difference.. your in the air).

If Im in close you dont have an arm to hit with. ITs too late. Even Crokroc shows that pretty well.. Man isnt no fool.. he keeps his distance to mid to far. Tactical advantage swings to the wrestler the minute he actually has his hands on you. Your tactical advantage is to keep his hands off you. It really comes down to if you can knock him out before he gets ahold of you. At the MWA level its proven thats not what happens.

See this clip

http://www.is-mad.com/upload/userfil...lvin-brock.gif

This is a slowed down gif, on live TV everyone missed that punch. :P

I can show you similar things in wrestling. Especially with shots. You have another thing comming if you don't think shots can be done quicker then you can react or catch. The guy that beat my ass in regionals had a shot so quick if you were on the matt with him and blinked you were screwed.. Very hard to discern tell.. I wrestled him 8x.. almost beat him the last time. (I managed to stay the hell off my feet). He went on to win multiple college national championships.

Thats only one of my tactics.

The whole point is to keep you away in the first place and keep hitting you till you get shaken.

And if you never felt slightly so disoriented then you have NEVER been hit hard enough.

If you are rocked with a shot from distance and are slightly shaken I highly doubt that you would still have the mental capacity to carry out any kind of takedown, as that in itself is an art of its own.


The whole point is that if you are in trouble going to the floor is not an option, your only chance is to put your D up and shake off the buzz in your head.

Its an art that happens in wrestling too.. Or any fighting. The key to both sports is to try and disorient the opponent.. we still hit to the head, not quite as hard but we do.. Then theres Throws.. those types of things do the same thing you are talking about. To argue the wrestler doesnt go out there disoriented similar to the striker is to be completely off base.. Anyone who fights learns that skill.

Hold on, when do you openly hook someone to the head in wrestling?

The whole point is that no one in wrestling blatantly hits anyone.

In boxing the whole point for you to put your D up and shake off the buzz is because you are physicaly not capable of doing anything else, you are concused, if you had that feeling you know that your legs give up and you wanna go only one place, to the floor.

The whole point is.. Wrestlers are trained to deal with those type of things too.. And as youll see from the videos on pride and UFC.. they do quite well in standing d. At least as long as they dont get winded (300 lb lardballs like the one mentioned above need not apply).

You blatantly slap people to the head in wrestling all the time. Slap and yank.. The whole point being to disorient the bastard to setup the shot.. A close fist is illegal.. and blatant hits are illegal.. But your taught to rough up the head.. jam it around from left to right with your hands, your elbows.. etc..
Have you never seen a cross face.. Suckers hurt like bloody hell.. Think take the elbow.. and try to rip your opponents face off with it.. Cant wind up completely but its the same basic concept and has a similar effect.

The whole point is that every single wrestler in any MMA is trained to strike cause his wrestling ability alone would not get him anywere but a place at a wrestling competition.

You blatantly slap people to the head in wrestling all the time. Slap and yank.. The whole point being to disorient the bastard to setup the shot.. A close fist is illegal.. and blatant hits are illegal.. But your taught to rough up the head.. jam it around from left to right with your hands, your elbows.. etc..
Have you never seen a cross face.. Suckers hurt like bloody hell.. Thin take the elbo.. and try to rip your opponents face off with it.. Cant wind up completely but its the same basic concept and has a similar effect.[/quote]

Well you see slaps and yanks arent exactly jabs or straight rights on the chin.

What was the last time a man got KOed or knocked down by a slap?

In the begining many werent.. or had very little. The same could be said for the strikers.
Over time the mix has come out on top.. That doesnt say anything different from my comments.

Actually all the time.. Ive yanked people so hard theyve fallen to the floor.. Its not the same as a jab... but its not that far off for disorienting.. If I yank your entire body around by your head.. move you 3 feet with your head and while simultaneously grounding it into your face.. Your going to have trouble concetrating... . Ive also already told you ive had concusions, bruised ribs, broken arms, etc in wrestling.. It happens.. not every match.. but it still happens. People dont break their noses in wrestling while playing paddycake.

Then if wrestling was enough to take a man out, why did they learn striking and opposite?

Clearly before that it was all about who managed to get a shot in or who managed to grab ones legs or arms. :P Isnt that what I have been saying oh a few pages ago?

Because the strikers learned wrestling. I told you before.. you know both your superior to either. In fact.. if your average at either one and stunning at the other your going to be damn good. Thats a given.

I like the new title by the way.

Once again, I fail to see the similarity.

You throwing someone with force has nothing to do with someone going down because they are concused from a punch.

You cant possibly slap someone hard enough to resemble anything close to the effect a punch to the head has on you. Its not possible, you cant use your toes and swing your hips like your Muhammad Imad Bruce Lee with slapping motion.

I say wreslers learned striking.

Or we can go start a whole new thread on history of MMA to see who did what first :P

and yea the title is great. :)

No one ever argued knocking some out.. U talked about confusing someone or knocking them to the ground.. Neither require you to open hand punch. Let someone cross face you, if you think you can concentrate in that any more then a punch Ill buy you a beer. While your at it let someone wrap their hand behind your kneck and use his elbow to push your around and then slam your head straight down to the matt. Trust me it hurts like hell. Hits to the head are something wrestlers are trained to deal with.. and to be honest it isnt the strength of the hit that disorients.. Even a light hit can disorient if done right.. Its how its done. You should know that too.

As a response to strikers learning grappling :P