BTW Im arguing that wrestling wont win you a fight alone. Just like boxing alone would be useless, since its the art of the fist.

But you seem to insist that wrestling is the asnwer to all.

No.. Im arguing that wrestling with basic punching skills > then just boxing. Whether its because striking basics are more intuitive or because wrestling is not...
A mix is best in everything. With boxing you have one weapon, and only one weapon. It has some severe difficiencies. Wrestling at least has the training in both standing and down situations. Boxing does not.. That makes it screwed imho.

If you are up close standing to me then I can assure you that I can land a combo on you that you would never anticipate coming havent had boxed before.

Arm punches dont swing a whole lot of weight around, my extended jab to your nose will not aid you in some big weight transfer.

I'm not a hockey goon that will swing his whole body upon throwing a punch.

You arent expected to be.. Any movement at all is enough.. As a boxer you should know that in terms of opening up a shot. The problem is.. The same goes for throws.. and you dont understand close up.. Close up is defined similar to what they break up in boxing.. If a wrestler gets that close in your already done. Your real only chance is to keep him out from that distance.

Ok wrestling with a little punching > boxing.

Now to say that wrestling > a trained offencive striker that uses knees, elbows, fists, kicks is laughable.

Still greater.. a strained striker cant do it on the ground.. If the wrestler gets him to the ground its over.

Wrestling < a trained striker that also has a decent amount of basic grappling training. (decent doesnt mean a wrestler, but rather someone who has had at least several weeks of basic training) K1 and UFC both showed that in their early years.
In other words.. In a choice between buster douglas and a k1 fighter at the top echelons.. Ill take old buster (only boxer I really remember to be honest) sinc ehte k1 has had grapple training if hes at that level.. And if he knows the basics enough to keep me on my feet Im toast. But the basics arent intuitive.

Well I stand by the idea that you will not come close enough to anything like a boxing clinch in the first place.

And once again, who said I will commit, and who said I wont make you believe that I am comiting and then counter with something you would normaly not see coming.

^Its possible.. especially given my age and how rusty I am... But thats where you start to get into the 50-50 bare knuckle.. One punch isnt going to cut it.. Your going to have to fool the wrestler enough times to really hurt him. Wear gloves and I think your stacking the odds in the wrestlers favor.

That word is the key here. Dont you agree?

If the striker gets him to stand, or IF the wrestler throws him down.

The problem is.. In almost every fight it ultimately ends up on the ground, both at the k1/ufc level and in a street fight. I think Ive seen 1 fight in my life that didnt eventually go to the ground or end cause someone broke it up... And a drunk guy getting knocked out bare knuckle isnt all that impressive. Thats a hell of an if to bank on. Id be more likely to bank on gouging someones eyes out so they cant see then I would that youd take an entire fight standing. Even in boxing itself the clinch happens many times.. ITs just natural.

The argument is that a pure wrestler is simply not trained to punch, and just because he;s a wrestler it doesnt mean that he will cleanly make the man submit withouht taking any strikes in the process what so ever.

I dont know about fighting drunk guys. What I can tell you is that 90% guys do not know how to punch, or punch hard enough.

Personaly if I punched as hard as I did in hte ring, withouht having a glove on and haveing my wrist taped, Id break my wrist each time I fought on the street.

Now not every boxer has Tysons power, and not ever wrestler is an olympic medalist.

Just because someone can take me to the ground it doesnt mean that they are good enough to completly imobilize my ass.

For all I know some average frat boy wrester will try to take me down, and while on the ground I'll still manage to throw an eblow on his forehead, or beat the shit out of his kidness till the pain is strong enough for him to just quit.

Frat boy and wrestler dont belong in the same sentence imho. I'm not refering to your average joe of either sport nor would I ever.

Well then we are talking about Mike Tyson Vs (sadly I dunno any big time wrestlers :( ) in a street fight.

Now who do you beat on?

I just dont know :P

Cael Sanderson.. quite easily... The man is insane.

Then again, even I know enough to tell you Tyson isn't even a good boxer.

I dont like Tyson, I just know there arent many people out there who would be able to sustain a bare knuckle Tyson punch to any part of their head withouht get KOd.

Just to show what Im saying, look here


To me as a striker the opening seconds I see a whole lot of opportunities to land numerous punches, even a smaller jab which would not alter my stance would still with bare knuckles bother the opponent.

While he;s grabbing my head I can kick him to the body, which would probably end up in me going down, but I would still land a kick to the kidness which would bother him.

Well I think Gray is saying that a good wrestler would not allow that to happen.

While I stick to the other side, were Id be like Igor, just striking and striking and not allowing for the wrestler to take me down.

Or if he gets within range this would happen

http://www.is-mad.com/upload/userfil...lvin-brock.gif

Same story here. Most of the time someone would try to clinch me up and take me down, while I would use nothing but my strength to at least get one of my hands free and land a punch and then its my game.

Who me or a wrestler?

Your comparing a match between two wrestlers to a match between a wrestler and a boxer. The moves you choose in a match depend on your opponent. As mentioned above wrestling is extremely tactical. If you go out there planning a series of moves your going to lose.

Your strenght wont get you free from a wrestling clinch. Yet again.. Take the example of freshman wrestlers.. There are certain moves you wont get out of unless you know the trick.

Were you watching the same fight I was.. Igor clearly has more wrestling experience then Edson.. Not to mention neither is exceedingly good at grappling judging by the fight.

If he came within range of a clinch Id fake something to make him concetnrate on that and then either punch him or kick him from an angle he wouldnt see coming.

If he dove for my legs Id step back and kick him in the head.

If what Igor showed there you consider to be wreslting experiance then I know that much wrestling my self :lol:

You assume youd have the chance to step back. You say he makes the same mistake dodging a punch... Perhaps you should think about that disparity.


You also say hed make the same mistake witha fake and you wouldnt miss such a fake from a wrestler. The problem with that arguement is, besides that its extremely incongruous.. As standing up the wrestler can use the same tricks on you... The wrestler can also take you down on the mat. So your on almost equal footing standing.. and your screwed if he gets you to the ground.

Well I think Im bright enough to take a wrestling stance against a wrester and get my hands close enough to his head to throw a punch.

I would definetly not stand upright against someone who I know is a wrestler.

I didn't say he was good.
In fact I said the opposite "Not to mention neither is exceedingly good at grappling judging by the fight."

That being said, Igor did have one decent wrestling move about 40 secs in. It worked really well but he didnt know how to follow it up.

The wrestler isn't going to jar your head with an open hand to get you to lose concentration like he does in a match either.. Those are opponent specific moves.

But this entire thread you assumed that I will make the mistake of falling into the wrestlers traps.

^No.. I made the assumption you can't avoid the ground. You can match him fake for fake.. but that doesnt change that almost all fights end up on the ground at some point. Someone without grappling training doesnt have ground training. Thats a given.. No other major martial art has anything approaching adequate ground training. A good wrestler will hold his own while standing. A good boxer will get destroyed on the ground. Thats where the tactical advantage lies.

Yes, and I argue that wrestlers arent taught to punch while on the ground.
Or that every wrester is good enough to completly prevent any strikes from the opponent, legs, arms, head buts...

How?

Isnt it... a good boxer will destroy a man who is not taught to punch while standing?

If elite MMA fighters cant dodge many punches from boxers/strikers what makes you think a wrestler will?

Once again, wrestling drunk guys is a bad example.

It doesnt matter if they are taught to punch on the ground, not that many martial arts teach this. If you can control the person and have one hand free you can do what ever the hell you want indefinitly.. Punches arent even needed.

I never said every wrestler.. I said a good wrestler.

They dont need to dodge many.. just enough to get in a shot. If elite strikers cant avoid getting taken down and destroyed by wrestlers in MMA until they have grappling training.. how do you expect a straight boxer striker will?

The wrestler isnt going to go toe to toe with the boxer, but if you dont think theres a large number of tactics from standing entirely unrelated to punching or kicking you are going to get your tail kicked sooner or later. You severely underestimate a wrestlers standing ability. IT doesnt involve punches or kicks, but its still extremely effective.... Easily if you had a wrestler at the same level as the boxer in his sport he would be a match on his feet.

That comment apparently went over your head.. It was meant to demonstrate I have never in my life but once.. when a drunk guy was involved.. Seen a fight not go to the ground.

And I say a good striker will not allow the fight to go down.

What 90% of bums do doesnt bother me. Or if 90% of the street fights end up that way.

Mirko is an elite striker, and surprisngly most of his fights never even get to the ground.

No no mate. I never in my life undersetimate anyone. I've done that and learned from that.

You are just suverly understimating what a good kickboxer is capable of.

Your living in a fantasy world.. In an even fight (skill wise) standing (wrestling versus boxing) theres very little chance it'll end on the feet. Even K1 and UFC prove that.. Or do you call them bums? As a result we come to your arguement. The problem with it? Mirko has grappling training so hes a poor arguement. So does just anyone successful in K1 and UFC. The people that didn't lost so bad they went out and received training in it.

No.. Not at all. They are good.. The equal of a wrestler on his feet at mid distance.. advantage goes to the wrestler close in.. to the kick boxer further out. However.. The kick boxer still gets creamed on the ground. Theres several examples of it in k1 and ufc.. let me go find you some.

And I think you do :D

I hope you realize that K1 is a kickboxing league, maybe you meant pride. There is no wrestling in K1.

I'm just surprised that you think one needs extensive training in wrestling to win.

I bet I can go to a wrestling school/gym and in a week combined with what I already know about striking have enough to beat a good wrestler...

I still think that you are dreaming or something thinking that someone who knows fuck all about any form of strikes is going to covincigly win against someone whose taught to strike.

How does someone who is never trained to punch at all is going to win a fight against a kick boxer or such just baffles me....I really do believe that you are the one dreaming here.

If you take me to the ground Ill still try to punch my way out. You as a wrestler are taught in to wrestle with wrestlers, not someone who is going to throw elbows, to your head or punch you.

How many times you see in UFC that one gets thrown to the ground and still throws a ton of punches on the wrester, whilst the other has prolly as much an idea about wrestiling as myself.


You assuming that I cant do the most basic of wrestling, or handle a wrestler, is like me assuming that you are completly cluless as far as throwing any punch or any kick is concerned.

To me someone who is never going to throw a punch at me is a punching bag, pure and simple.

Kickboxer appears to get his ass kicked.

Yea Drij showed you a vid to counter that few posts above.

Sopranos is on, gotta go.

I meant pride. From my understanding they are owned by K1.

If its hurting the wrestler he controls the hands so it cant happen. Its really quite simple.


Wow.. Just wow.. .. lets just put it like this.. NO.. Not even close. As a former wrestling coach as well as wrestler Im going to tell you straight up its going to take you a lot more then a week to get up to speed. Maybe a few months you can make it a fight.. but then I could say the same about the wrestler with kick boxing.

A vid of a kick boxer that used one wrestling move versus a jiu jitsu guy.. What does that have in relevance?

Forget it man, I agree to disagree.

I honestly believe that most wrestlers would be destroyed in a bare knuckle fight against any heavyweight champ.

one punch is literally a 1/10th to 2/10th of a second..... its hard for anybody to dodge them, even if you know what to look for in body movement.

How fast is the fastest takedown? 3-4 10ths ? Not every boxer is George Foreman who has a granite chin, and isn't the fastest movements... but people like the Klitchko's... light on thier feet would make a lot tougher takedown IMHO, let alone coming in close enough without a punch on your temple while you are doing something like a fireman's carry...

Wrestling doesn't have a counter to blunt attacks mate, that is why they aren't mixed up together.

UFC can go either way. Really depends on the fight. Last night's bout between Diego Sanchez and Josh Koscheck was so gay i thought the Houston Fire Dept. was going to need to be called out.

But you watch the blood bath between Stephan Bonnar and Forrest Griffin a couple years back, and good fucking lord....

Most of Chuck Liddel's fights have been awesome.

granted it's not as brutal as Pride (which has just been bought out by UFC) and IFL but it has it's moments.

Then again i'm not a huge fighting fan :bah:

that pride shit seems insane and out of mind...

In neither case are you responding to the actual movement.. At 3-4 10ths or 2 10ths.. In neither case can anyone actually respond to the thrown punch. Once its thrown its already too late. Same with a shot. You look for visual clues to whats going to happen. A twitch, a movement of the feet. Something that gives a tell. Thats how its done. Phyically at a high level no ones going to block a punch or shot strictly by the movement.

The firemans carry isnt a throw. Im actually thinking very much the throws would be extremely effective versus a boxer. Almost every throw involves immobilizing the hands, and getting into them is extremely easy.. Getting out is damn near impossible. Thats why a wrestler can compete on his feet for a period of time. He isnt going to stand toe to toe.. but matches have shown (in the early days of mwa) that wrestlers beat the crap out of the kick boxers till they learn grappling. After that its all on the individual.

A fat out of shape blob versus a good in shape person that clearly has been trained in grappling. The one guys shots are painful to watch... And the other guy is doing a fantastic job of whats called sprawling. He has clearly had a significant amount of wrestling training.

How about we pull out the vid of the beloved crocroc getting his ass beat by a wrestler. Randleman. Ironically who he beat using a grappling move in the rematch.

Coleman also comes to mind. Absolutely fantastic demonstration that crocroc has received months of grappling training. He wouldnt be able to block those moves if he didnt. They arent easy things to block.

actually, professional athletes often have reaction times from .1 to .3 seconds... sometimes even less with such levels of sport.

not to say that .1 is enough to react...

It isn't in either case.. In very much similarities to Clarksons speed series where they talk about a driver reading the road before the car reacts. The same process goes through to a professional athlete. Clarkson actually tested Schumacher in that video if I remember.. and beat him in slapsys. It really is a case of reading the movements before they happen.. Otherwise unless your fighting joe blow your screwed. If it takes .4 seconds to shoot it takes .4 secs to block.. if it takes .2 secs to punch it takes .2 secs to block. If you start when the other person swings its too late. I didn't master that until right near the end of my career.. ITs the difference between a good wrestler and the people at the upper echelon. The same holds true for any other sport.