About all the bashing on american car parts [Archive] - Sports Car Forum

666fast

08-12-2003, 01:39 AM

While I don't think it's a good idea to intentionally start a thread to flame someone, I understand what you mean.

My friend is exactly what you mentioned, all American cars suck in his opinion. Of course he drives a 1985 VW Cabriolet. :P Audi,Porshe. VW and BMW are all he cares about. He even thinks Ferrari's and Lamborghini's are pointless. Sorry, they aren't. Maybe he is mad he can't afford one. I don't know, but I have been trying to get him to understand what a supercar is about.
American cars are good, but their build quality really is going downhill. I'm not talking about race cars, I mean cars off of the dealers lot.
GM has had some serious trouble with some cars. From flimsy, shitty plastic all over the place to uneven body panel gaps. It doesn't help that GM is damn near bankrupt either.
Ford is doing so-so, I know a lot of people don't like them, but hey, they are the pioneers of car production. That has to say something. They are also losing money, it doesn't help that their cars don't match up to it's competition. The Taurus is getting it's ass handed to them by the Camry and Accord. Simply because they are both better cars in terms of looks, and build quality. Face it, if people think it looks cheap and shitty, they will think it's cheap and shitty.
Ford and GM are the masters of Badge engineering. What is the difference between a GMC pickup and a Chevy pickup? Not much.
What is the difference between the Taurus and the Mercury Sable? not much. Putting a different badge on a car doesn't make it better than it's counterpart.
American cars a fine by me, I just wish all the newer cars weren't so damned ugly. The Pontiac Aztek for example, who let this thing out of the design stage? It is so goddamned ugly, the fact that it made it to production means someone at Pontiac screwed up. It's already been dropped from production. Or maybe the Mercury Maruder, somewhat cool car, but pretty much a failure. While it wasn't intended to be a huge seller, it didn't move enough cars to keep it around. Which is kind of sad, because it was a pretty cool car.
American Engines are just fine. Many people like to bash them because for the most part, they get worse gas economy than most cars outside of North America. While that may be true, we pay a shitload less for a gallon of gas than the rest of the world. Right now, I can get a gallon of gas for as low as $1.55 gallon.
There is also nothing wrong with a pushrod V8. It creates plenty of torque and horsepower without needing to rev to 9000rpms. The S2000 needs due to a severe lack of torque. the reason why many manufacturers here haven't made a different version of BMW's VANOS or Honda's Vtec, is because it's not needed if you think about it. Well, Ford has it's Zetec, but that is about it if I remember correctly.
A OHC engine makes plenty of power without it. The pushrod V8's are a proven design that works just fine. Reminder for the rest fo the world, we don't have small roads like much of the UK. So the size of a car is only really important to us when we consider how often we will be hauling crap around. Very few people here will care about the cars overall size. I myself wouldn't want a huge ass car, but most people believe bigger cars are safer. Yea, it's safer for the people in the big car, but everyone else in something smaller is worse off.
When it comes to racing, it's pretty much just like the rest of the world. The more money you throw at it, the better you will do. you can get more parts, better drivers, better pit crew, the whole shebang.
The Corvettes do so well, not only because it's a great car, but they have an excellent team. They don't win simply because they have a pushrod V8 for an engine. There is a lot more to think about than just the engine if a racing team wants to be successfull.
Nascar is the king of Motorsports in the Untied States. All cars are mandated to use Iron block V8's. Toyota just announced that they plan to run a Camry in 2007. They too will need to use a Iron block V8. Aluminum would be better because of weight savings, but they would not stand up to the abuse. They would smoke bearings in no time. Although, I've read some talk about BMW and their inline six possibly entering Nascar. In my opinion, it won't happen anytime soon. Definately not by 2007 like Toyota.
It all comes down to opinion on what is the better car 90% of the time. The other 10%, is for the cars that are obviously better than it's competitor. Like how the Accord is a thousand times better in every aspect than the Ford Taurus.

Sinister Angel, BMW may use GM's automatic trannies for their 3 series cars, but that decision could have been made for a number of reason. Not just because it's a good transmission. I'm sure BMW saves quite a bit of money by buying them from GM than designing and producing their own. R&D is not cheap.

There is nothing wrong with American motors, no matter what people may say about them. They really can't be compared to the likes of Ferrari and Lamborghini either. The obvious answer is that a mass produced car can't have that kind of technology and build materials. They definately don't have the time to hand build cars if they want to have a hot seller. The top selling cars of all time are not $300,000 supercars, they are $30,000 and less, ordinary cars for Joe Schmo.

I'll say it again, there is nothing inherently wrong with Amercan cars or it's engines. It's all in the Demographics.

Only one question, did anyone read my huge post? :lol:

Sinister Angel

08-12-2003, 01:58 AM

I read it all :D

I think the statement about the fuel economy might be a bit off in somecases depending on what you are looking at. I was talking to a guy at the gas station who has a Corvette Z06. I asked what he usually got on the highway. He said around 26. Now let's say you look at the economy of lets say.. an Audi TT coupe. 28 on the highway, yet at the same time its only pushing 250 HP. I think if an American sports car can push 350+ hp w/26 MPG on the highway, that's pretty damned good. I also think fuel economy when dealing with a sports car can kind of be a joke at times. It does take some fuel to feed the ponies if you are getting on it. But even for a dailing driving car with some getup and go, for example a pontiac Grand Prix GTP, you are looking at 260 HP out of a blown 3.8 litre V6 yet it's still getting 28 MPG. That GTP also costs a few grand less than said TT coupe. I'm sure I could come up with more examples, but I think you get the point about the fuel economy thing.

666fast

08-12-2003, 02:05 AM

Well, you have a point, but try looking at trucks too. Afterall, it's mostly trucks that use the big pushrod V8's. Most trucks get decent mileage, hell some get very good mileage. But for the most part, it's not on par with the rest of the world.
A friends Chevy Pickup with a small block 350, gets about 12mpg when just driving around, If he gets on it, it'll go way down. Shove the pedal to the floor on a Subruban, tahoe, Expedition, H2, etc.. and on some of the trucks, I bet it'll get less than 1 mile per gallon.

AlienDB7

08-12-2003, 02:52 AM

You're right. Big american engines *can* have good mileage. I get average of 11L/100km on my gm 3400 while my friend's A4 1.8T gets 16L/100km. The main reason is the auto box it has. Basically I'm on 4th (0.68) gear whenever the car is over 60kph. Yes, gas is expensive here and I pretty much have to keep the tach needle at around 1500rpm to get that mileage. If you're driving on freeway 90% of the time, an american motor is fine. On the other hand, it does guzzle quite a bit of gas if you're driving in the city (with anything less than a feather foot).

In terms of quality, I do notice lots of cost cutting by gm, ford and chrysler in last few years. Just compare the interior of a 2000 american car with a 2003 of the same model/trim. Don't get me wrong, I still like american cars and their low end torque, but the build quality can really make people think twice about buying another american car.... you can't believe how many times the rotors on my car had to be machined/replaced in the first 20k km!

Probably one of the major reasons why someone would buy an american car is the excelletn performance/price ratio. A cdn$12k (us$8.4k) cavalier has an ecotec 2.2 with 140hp and 150lb-ft torque. That's alot of power for so little money (price of a kia rio).

In case you wonder, I don't like jap cars either. Most of the americanized versions they have here are ugly. Seems like only the europeans are good at designing good looking (affordable) cars nowadays :|

*This is NOT a flame war*

666fast

08-12-2003, 03:50 AM

08-12-2003, 04:00 AM

Interesting thread IMO. Even if it started like a flaming one, it seems to me pretty polite and entertaining to read.

As for me, loving cars in general, I can't say something like "american cars suck" or "European cars are sissies" ;)

Obviously, for us European, used to drive mostly 4 or 6 cyl car, is always strange to compare something like a straight-6 taken from an M3, with high specific output with a big V8 or V10, with lot of cubic inches but realively "low" power output..
But well, I won't say european engine (or japanese) are better... I prefer to say they are simply different.. Europe is not USA and USA is not Japan, so it's normal to see different evolutions on cars...

The only thing hard to understand to me is why most of the cars sold in US and in Europe must have different trim levels: a nice and elegant one for Europe an a more basic one for US. Now things are slowly changing (in interior like in chassis and so on), but this was always a mistery for me...

draak666

08-12-2003, 05:47 AM

Let me start by saying that I'm not very fond of American and Asian cars. In the first place that's because of their looks. However, since I grew up with seeing mostly European cars, and since the design of a car is influenced by the designer's background and culture, that is only logical. In this perspective I don't expect Americans to like the design of European cars either.

There are some American cars that I like, e.g. the Viper, Corvette, Hummer, Camarro, Jeep, Mustang, Gt40. But those are allready more expensive cars, with a background. The cheaper one that I see on the streets from time to time is a Chrysler Neon. Everyone should agree that this is a very, very ugly car.

Also I'd like to make a remark on the engines. Since they are bigger and get lower milage than European engines, it's easy to deduct that they are less efficient. I know gas is cheaper in America, so there isn't a need to improve efficiency. That's just the way it is. Now, because those V8's are less efficient they lend themselves more easily to improvements. That is why NOS is a lot more popular in America than in Europe. You simply cannot improve an 6 cyl. M3 engine (not a lot anyway). It is allready on the edge.

Oh, AlienDB7 I would suggst that friend of yours to have his car checked. An A4 1.8T that needs 16L/100km? That's not right. Does he ever change gears or does he drive in 1st gear all of the time. :D

sportVeloce

08-12-2003, 06:42 AM

stracing

08-12-2003, 07:46 AM

i hate american cars so flame me!!!! to tell you the truth i pick japanese or european cars any day.

i just hate them coz i don't like their styling and build quality. the previous dodge viper is sold here and i can honestly say i'm quite dissapointed by how excited ppl get when i read the forums. also amercian cars don't look like they handle well on a track. thats why i like jap cars coz they're cheap and most don't need suspension tweaking to go around corners fast. sure they aren't nicely designed like the europeans, but at least they get their job done on track (also leave the ricers out of this, i have seen proper tuned japanese vehicles) plus i don't care if a integra type-r can't do 0-100kmh in under 5s. i'll be happy pulling high lateral g's all day. also i'm not rich so i can't replace a car every 2years or so. therefore i need a car will good build quality and japanese cars can offer that.

now for why i like european cars is because they have nicely designed cars. if i say my car is from italy most will automatically think "wow an exotic" (bar fiat). how can you not love designs from pininfarina, italdesign, bertone etc i love european technology even if they don't make sense to me.

i don't mind the pushrod v8 engines, simple design, big power potential but thats all there is to sing about. but i guess americans just like drag racing and going around in circles. if you like that, fine by me, it doesn't involve or concern me. the closest cars we get that is similar to american cars are the holden commodore and ford falcon. i just don't like them coz they're fat, heavy and thirsty. everything is cheap bla bla bla

there you go flame me as much as you like it won't bother me. for me not liking american cars will always be stuck in my mind. i'm even trying to dissuade my parents from buying the accord v6 coz its designed in america

wasn't the gt-40 designed and built in britain?

mendocino

08-12-2003, 08:15 AM

I think I can put my opinion here, what I think is that american cars, aren't all bad, every market just reply to the buyer's need... that's a simple rule, but it works everywhere, everytime.

japanese car manufacturers have decided to limit the max horsepower to 280... so obviously, they must find something else to go out from the crowd. IMO that's why japanese cars are just so right about handling and cornering speed. Just watch at the best motoring show and you'll see that the cars have just the same top speed and what makes the difference is the road handling.

about europe now. The massive difference between eur and usa is just the price of the gas... and the taxes!!! so car makers just have to make small motors that has massive horsepower (that's not limited here and in the states) and that does as much mpg as possible. Also try to make the car as light as they can, so big engine are not needed. About the build quality... I think it's somehow a matter of tradition, europeans always look at confort and good build quality... just look at the early maybach and rr.

In usa, the gas is just cheap, and they have no bhp restriction at all neither, so no pbls with big engines and low mpg. They just don't make complicated cars. Just look at the difference between a cart and an F1... In fact it depends because now usa seems to wake up and start to put some retriction in fuel consomtion and gaz emission so it's just changing and I think future american cars will just drop the big massive engine to go to modern small ones. I'm just amazed that the only constructor that acheaved in building a fuel cell car is gm.. an american car maker. Well that's not what I would expect.

as long as racing cars is concerned, I think the debate is useless, they have the same rules so it's just about engineering and how much money you spend on it. Every car could be a race winning car with the budget needed, no matter the performance of the original one.

So nothing is the right way, but I think it's great to have such diversity in cars now, because future engineer can learn from each way of building cars, and just make better cars. that''s called evolution, right?

draak666

08-12-2003, 08:29 AM

I forgot about the soft suspension of American cars. That sucks big time. Every car enthousiast agrees on that, right?

mendocino

08-12-2003, 08:57 AM

I forgot about the soft suspension of American cars. That sucks big time. Every car enthousiast agrees on that, right?

Yes, I agree with that, but my father don't... He just hate the elise... he like confort... different point of view, different solutions.

stracing

08-12-2003, 09:09 AM

I forgot about the soft suspension of American cars. That sucks big time. Every car enthousiast agrees on that, right?

i agree with that. just like jeremy clarkson said, "sofas on wheels"

SFDMALEX

08-12-2003, 09:28 AM

. And who happens to be behind the corvette? Why Ferrari of course.

</flame>

Prodrive just joined ALMS, and the stuff that they done so far is just awesome. That Vette needs some heavy upgrades to beat this car in the future. Did you watch Le Mans? The ferrari was running laps around the Vette. Did you watch Petit Le Mans? That brake on the last lap was just pure luck for the Vettes. The 550 proved it reliability at Le Mans, and things are going to change. The same 550 is dominating the FIA GT series, which trust me, is much tougher then the GTS Class in ALMS.

P.S Im not anti american engine guy, Im just saying that the Vette does not have that much against the Prodrive 550.

1zippo1

08-12-2003, 11:28 AM

I agree with my fellow Belgians (Mendocino & draak666).

Something more I would like to add: I don't really like American car's in general and that's mostly because of the styling. There certainly are nice American car's like the Mustang and others but not so many as in europe and regular cars are also less attractive then most European cars. That's a matter of taste so it depends up to you.

The situation with the engines is allready explained by Mendocino. Taxes & fuel are much more expsensive in europe so engines are smaller. In general European engines are more sofisticated & complex. Look at one of the prime examples, the Corvette, has a magnificent engine with loads of torque but it isn't more powerfull then an M3 and about as fast. The M3 on the other hand has a 3.2 engine. I've read articles about both and both were praised by the same Belgian magazine but they also said you allmost have to be crazy or very richt to pay the gas & taxes for the corvette.

AlienDB7

08-12-2003, 11:29 AM

AlienDB7, what kind fo car do you have? I know for awhile, some Chrysler and Didge cars had rotors that were too thin and too small. they would work, but the rotors would be warped in no time flat.
A friend used to work a a car parts place and he said it's the most common thing that Intrepid and Avenger owners would buy.
A lot of people started ordering frozen rotors to get rid of the problem.
The one in my sig.. j/k.. drive an '00 alero here. Actually one of the few good looking american car IMO. The rotors are not small (11" for front and back), just that they used a bad pad/rotor combination for my year. One of the front pads even cracked after 20k km! Convined the dealer to replace them with the '03 spec pads/rotors, they seem to be fine now. I hear lots of people just replace them with higher quality slotted ones. Not sure if it's completely gm's fault, the car runs on 4th (OD) gear at 1200rpm most of the time and there's virtually no engine braking. Not good when you're driving in the city having to stop every 15sec!

Sinister Angel

08-12-2003, 12:20 PM

I forgot about the soft suspension of American cars. That sucks big time. Every car enthousiast agrees on that, right?

Umm, let's look at even stock vettes. You can corner like a crazy bitch. And this is gonna sound weird, but I was in a kids fiero. That thing was like a damned gokart on the corners.

AlienDB7

08-12-2003, 12:28 PM

Audi fuel economy stats for the A4 1.4T
Manual, FrontTrak: 22/31 (city/hwy)
Manual, quattro: 21/29
multitronic: 23/29
Tiptronic: 20/28

16... sounds like he has a Yank-Tank motor :D

source Audi USA: http://www.audiusa.com/features_specifications/0,,contentType-26_modelId-200301_status-P_countrycode-1_,00.html

16L/100km, not MPG! So, we just crashed another mars explorer :D

According to http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/vehicles/guide/guide_results.cfm?category=1&PrintView=N&Text=N&mfg=AUDI , the A4 avant 1.8T gets 11.6L/100km city and 7.6L/100km highway.

So, 16L/100km is still very possible with lead foot + uphill driving during winter time.

For my car (alero 3.4L), it's 11.0L/100km city, 6.7L/100km highway.
Source: http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/vehicles/guide/guide_results.cfm?category=1&PrintView=N&Text=N&mfg=OLDS

I forgot about the soft suspension of American cars. That sucks big time. Every car enthousiast agrees on that, right?
Depends on which car you're talking about. Some "family" sedans like the malibu do come with soft suspension but the same has to be said for their americanized jap counterparts. Maybe it's the 24/15mm anti-roll bar (stock) and low sitting position, I don't feel much body roll.

One thing I don't like about jap cars, their spongy brakes!! It seems like they designed the cars for the ladies who use the brakes like an on/off switch.

Johns

08-12-2003, 12:30 PM

american cars suck fuckin balls. and in races most of the time its not the car your drivin its the driver 8) Japanese cars also suck, fuckin plastic pieces of shit :lol:

SFDMALEX

08-12-2003, 12:36 PM

american cars suck fuckin balls. and in races most of the time its not the car your drivin its the driver 8) Japanese cars also suck, fuckin plastic pieces of shit :lol:

ROFLAMO

Sinister Angel

08-12-2003, 12:51 PM

As for the M3, that is a damned nice piece of machinery. And as you know I seem to have a liking for vettes. Let's compare a regular (not Z06) vette coupe with an M3 coupe in price, engine performance, and fuel efficiency.

Price
M3: Around $47,000 USD
Corvette: Around 42,000 USD

Fuel Efficiency (gotten from Edmunds)
M3: 24 MPG
Corvette: 28 (I'll probably say around 26 as I asked a guy who had a Z06)

Engine performance:
M3: Torqe 262 ft-lbs
Horsepower: 333 hp
Corvette: Torque: 360 ft-lbs.
Horsepower: 350 hp

I'm guessing that BMWs are a bit cheaper in europe though. Does anyone have any links to direct track comparisons between the Corvette and M3?

AlienDB7

08-12-2003, 12:52 PM

Found something interesting about fuel economy and emission: http://www.polk.com/news/releases/2003_0122b.asp

"SOUTHFIELD, Mich. (January 22, 2003) - For the third consecutive year, Toyota Motor Co. has topped the Automotive Market Environmental Superiority (AMES) Awards with 11 wins for 2003. General Motors and Ford Motor Co. followed closely with 10 awards each. Honda had the highest percentage of its models recognized by AMES Awards with a 54 percent success rating while Volkswagen came in second with 50 percent of its offerings winning awards."

If you look at the list, jap cars are only dominating the subcompact segment. They are not much more economical than americans or europeans when it comes to bigger cars/engines. IMO, japs are good at making small economical engines and americans are good at making big engines fuel efficient. Europeans, they're good at making good sounding fun engines that are efficient. Even the pagani zonda has respectable gas mileage compared to most big trucks over here.

Sinister Angel

08-12-2003, 12:55 PM

I've heard decent things from people with trucks with the new Vortec motors in them.

stracing

08-12-2003, 01:06 PM

that is so true
but its getting better, the silvia's look pretty good

fedezyl

08-12-2003, 02:28 PM

Well well well! if it's me the one who started the flame war it seems! LOL

Well, in reply to some coment's in this topic, racing, doesn't count, as stated in several posts by fellow Jabba's world members, it all depends on how much money they throw at it..
As far as american cars, the reason's I don't like them, poor efficiency, poor build quality, poor handling, and dull engines..
let's take a 50.000 dollars Cadillac DeVille not the current one but the one before, I happen to have a very good one own both a DeVille and a CTS (more to it in a little bit), I'm amazed at why he bought this car instead of a mercedes benz E class for example, but well, I was surprised to find that the electric windows buttons were taken from a cheap Chevrolet pick up, the ergonomics were ridiculous, all the buttons to control lights and thinks you would regulary use are right behin the huge steering wheel...not to mention the rattle from all the fake wood and buttons...
Now, the only thing I like about that car is that it is indeed very comfortable inside! it's huge! but there's to many tradeoffs for that cabin space..As far as handling goes, well as Clarkson proved it in his video it does handle like a boat, corners like one, and you want to know the scariest part? well, imagine doing 75mph on the highway, go over a moderate bump and start porpoising up and down and feeling that the car acts like jellow, so poor damping, but still very comfortable on the roads though... I also like the engine, definetely matched the purpose of the car, but I still think that Mercedes, Jaguar and BMW have done much better with better engines, build quality, less weight and more comfort with carefully designed seats instead of a big couch inside, and think about this, all of those car's are 50.000 dollars cars...

Ok
Now on to the CTS that I also test drove...
I must say I was IMPRESSED! I actually liked this car!! It handled nice, had a 6 speed gearbox, a nicely designed dashboard and very comfortable seats! I could do with lower profile tires, but that's just a matter of taste, as for the engine, it's a V-6, over 3 liters I think, but still impressed, not the best V-6 around but still a very good engine, don't about reliability but it felt nice to be thrashed around, and of course, no more FWD but RWD...that's another thing of the big Caddy, FWD in a 50.000 dollars car...oh well..

My point being here, american car's are bad, compared to European and Japanese car's in their segments, being luxury car's, economy car's, hot hatches and even sport's car's, they're always behind because they seem to do a half ass job, as proved by the Cadillacs, when they did want to do a good job as with the CTS the result is quite impressive, not the leader of the segment but at least not something you see and ask yourself "that's a 50.000 dollar car??"...and in history, they've done great car's, I love the Mustang GT500, or the GT40, but that's where my list stops, because there's nothing else to see right now...don't like the corvette (matter of taste of course) or it's engine (comparing to same car's in it's segment worldwide), don't like the mustang (although it's cheap straight line performance, but who here want's that anyways) definetely don't like pontiacs, specially that abobination called the Aztec (I think we all agree here)...and also Camaro's and Firebird's...
And the reason's for me not liking these car's are all the same, it's an old car with a new body, there's been absolutely no advance in technology in the U.S. car makers until now when the technology gap is so huge that it is ridiculous...
As far as the V-8 engines, I just purely don't like inefficiency, it's a waste of energy, feeling that something can be done much better why settle with the bare minimum? Just think about the reputation they have...they don't have it because of no reason...and yes yes, I know american's love V-8's and I respect them for that, as a fellow here said it's a matter of cultural differences, I grew up with small european car's, but still if I objectively compare american car's with european or japanese car's in their on segment's they get smoked all the time in anything you compare, from performance to build quality.....
This is not a flame war, and i'm sorry the way I put my post on the other topic, I was a bit upset about the news, so I apologize if I offended anyone, but what I posted here is my trying to be as objective as I can..

666fast

08-12-2003, 03:07 PM

fedezyl is partly right on American cars and thier finish. Quite a few cars shouls have better components for thier price. Cadillac are notorious for it. Of course a won't be a great handling car, it wasn't built for it. Grandma and Grandpa are the primary Cadillac buyers here. To me, I think they are overpriced.
Most american cars don't handle well because it's not what the majority of car buyers want. It is changing though. For most people here, they want a comfortable ride, they don't want it to pogo stick around corners. The new Pontiac Grand Prix with the Comp G package handles better than it's European and Japanese competition. now if they would give it a proper manual gear box. Even the new Lincoln LS with the V8 has great handling.
Like I said before, fuel economy is not as important here as it is in the rest of the world. But it is a growing concern. A few cities have started using a $4 million dollar city bus that runs on hydrogen. A few makers are touting the mpg as a selling point. Unless we have another gas crisis like in the 70's, it'll never be a main concern. People here complain when gas gets anywhere near $2 a gallon.

The Corvette is perfectly able on a race track. Especially a Z06. Put both a Vette and an M3 on a track and they will be pretty equal. Put a Z06 on a track and it'll beat the M3, it's been done. I think it was Road and Track that did the comparison.
I don't agree with the statement that Americans only like to go in a staright line or in Circles. I surely don't. I like drag racing, something about a 4000bhp monster hitting 300mph in 3 seconds! As for Nascar, I don't like it. It bores me to death. But that doesn't change the fact that Nascar is the number one motorsport here. I'm sure NHRA drag racing isn't far behind it. Both sports are huge and their fans are hooligans, people go nuts over it.

Sinister Angel

08-12-2003, 03:23 PM

Ok
Now on to the CTS that I also test drove...
I must say I was IMPRESSED! I actually liked this car!! It handled nice, had a 6 speed gearbox, a nicely designed dashboard and very comfortable seats! I could do with lower profile tires, but that's just a matter of taste, as for the engine, it's a V-6, over 3 liters I think, but still impressed, not the best V-6 around but still a very good engine, don't about reliability but it felt nice to be thrashed around, and of course, no more FWD but RWD...that's another thing of the big Caddy, FWD in a 50.000 dollars car...oh well..

Wait untill they come out with the CTS-V....
400 HP in a CTS.

fedezyl

08-12-2003, 03:29 PM

Do you know what engine is it going to have??

The other car that I saw on the street the other day was the Chrysler Crossfire, pretty cool, to bad you can see to many Mercedes SL traits in it's design, I liked the tail though...

Sinister Angel

08-12-2003, 03:39 PM

666fast

08-12-2003, 03:42 PM

It's going to have an LS6 in it.
Just imagine the tunability it will have though. Send it off to lingenfelter. You wouldn't know if the CTS next to you was a stock 400 or a Ferrari killing 700 HP tuner Caddy.

You might not be able to do that. Lingenfelter is in the hospital in a coma. He was involved in a car accident and sent to the hospital. He had an allergic reaction to some of the drugs and now he is pretty much a vegetable. In other words, he's brain dead. I have no idea what is going to happen to his company though.

Sinister Angel

08-12-2003, 03:46 PM

Yeah, I heard about the accident. I think he has some really competent people in the company ready to keep it going though.

SFDMALEX

08-12-2003, 04:06 PM

It's going to have an LS6 in it.
Just imagine the tunability it will have though. Send it off to lingenfelter. You wouldn't know if the CTS next to you was a stock 400 or a Ferrari killing 700 HP tuner Caddy.

Ferrari Killing lol. Maybe is straight line, I wanna see it kill it on the track. I would be amazed if it even killed a rx7 on a track.

Sinister Angel

08-12-2003, 04:27 PM

You most likely aren't going to take that car on a track. I'm talking about more on the road, although I wouldn't be surprised if you could trick out the suspension on it.

ShadowLvr

08-12-2003, 05:26 PM

Well, I guess I'll toss my opinion in here as well. Note to everyone, I'm a laid back guy, so not going directly bash any one auto brand. Cept Yugo. Yugo stunk. But On American cars. There's a reason a large number of Americans like large cars. We're large people on the whole. I'm 6'0 205 lbs. (Muscled, not fat.) With bad knees. You can't force me into a subcompact at gunpoint. I am extremely uncomfortable in most of the Jap imports. Even a lot of the Europeans I'm not comfortable in. (I don't fit in the 3 Series, or Z3/Z4 BMW's, SLK and C class Benze's, and the Jag S-type is pretty snug for me.) Other things about big cars, we carry a lot of stuff. End of story. The family sedan backup car here (99 Oldsmobile Cutlass) regularly sees 4 and 5 50lb bags of dog food. Civic would be flattened under that. My personal car is a 97 Cadillac Eldorado. 4.6L DOHC V8, pushing near 300 horse, over 300 torque, and over 4000 lbs of car. On the highways, I can easily get a steady 27 mpg out of it. In the city, it drops to about 12, but I tend to race. A LOT. When normal city driving, I see 19. As far as build quality, I hear some major GM bashing, yet I haven't had these problems. The cutlass has 65k miles on it. Has had 4 problems total. 1 bad battery, replaced under warranty. 2, torn gasket on oil filter from an oil change. 3 alternator recently went out at 62k miles. 4, brake rotors tend to warp a bit with me behind the wheel, but I drive it hard. :) The Cutlass was a match for the Camry, Accord, and Altima at the time of purchase. Cutlass bought for $19,000 USD (and change.) Accord was asking 24k, Camry wanted 21k, Altima was equal 19k price, but not as strong a car. I got in it, drove it, then grabbed my lil brother and I could feel the car struggling. (Brother is 5'11, and 190) I notice some slamming of the Camaro as being too pricey as well. Here in the states, just over $30,000 sticker price for the SS Camaro is a very nice price. And not to be rude, but if you paid 52k for a Z06, you need to learn to haggle. Friend of mine picked a brand new one up for 48k, out the door. Tax, tag and title.
As for inefficient motors. While American cars use motors that aren't squeezing every last drop of power that can be found, there is a reason. Americans love to customize. The entire generation just before the baby boomers, and into the baby boomers LOVE to toy with their cars. Take the 2 biggest American tuners for the past 20 years. Mustang and Camaro. Mustang, powered by one of many motors, 4.6 OHV, DOHC 4.6, Supercharged DOHC 4.6. Any one of the versions are set up so that the buyer, with about $1000 can step up the power 50 or 60 horse and torque. (Think intake, performance chip, and exhaust.) Camaro was the same way. They can also be taken a lot further. For the $3000 it takes a lot of the imports to shove on a turbo for 70-150 horses, I can take a mid 90's Chevy 350 starting at 260 horse, 330 torque(LT1 since it happens to be one of my favorites) Intake, Exhaust, Chip, some heads, and a set of lumpy cams and easily be at 500 horse, and in the 450 range for torque. And yet, it will still be streetable. You grandmother may not like it, but it'll be a lot more reliable than a turboed out civic motor. And a lot more power. American auto companies build motors with a lot of potential for more. The buyer is the one who decides to go for more. One of the funny things is my street, there's 6 houses. 5 of us work on our cars ourselves. I have my 97 Eldorado, guy at the end of the street has his 03 Mustang Cobra, next to him is late 60's Charger, then the 1 person who doesn't, then a little Chevy Extreme (S10) and at the start of the street is a new Celica. Of us 5 guys toying with our cars, 4 race, and 3 show. (Celica, Extreme, and I all race and show our rides.)
There's also even more engine sharing in american lines than anything else. Take (Since I know the Chevy 350 LT1) the 96 Chevy 350. Saw Service in the, Camaro, Firebird, Trans Am, Caprice, Impala SS, Fleetwood, Roadmaster, All the chevy trucks, GMC Sierra, Chevy Silverado, the Chevy full sized club van, The SUV's got them, and I'd swear there's more... Ah well. Same with the Ford modular 4.6 OHV. Lincoln Town Car, Crown Vic, Mustang, F 150, few of the Minivans, their Club Van, Mercury Grand Marquis, and a number of their SUV's. These motors need to be able to perform well in a lot of situations, as passenger car motors, sports motors, truck motors, people moving van motors, etc and most of the imports aren't designed for that variety. And since I'll probably hear about (Oh he's using V8's) Think of the GM Series II 3800 V6. Powers most of the Buick line, sees use in Pontiac line a lot, some Chevy apps, a lot of minivan usage, and it adjusts well to all of it.
Onto the handling. (And yes, I know I'm wandering a bit on my train of thought. Had surgery yesterday, still a bit off.) Don't look to Cadillac, Buick, Lincoln, or Mercury for handling. We're the luxury segments. Pontiac, some of Ford, some of Chevy, various Chrysler/Dodge stuff. You want a handling Sedan? Take the Gran Am, Grand Prix, or the late Contour. (Europe, think Mondeo) Handling sports car? Camaro, Firebird/Trans Am, Mustang to a lesser degree, on into the "supercar" status of Corvette and Viper. Ford GT 40 if and when it makes a return. Can also look to Saleen S7 for the extreme. (Think US version of Enzo.)
I saw a mention of trucks earlier. I'll simply say this, noone but American companies make a truck that can handle what I need. Ours is a 97 Dodge Ram 3500 with the Cummins 6.0L I6 Turbo Deisel. Towing capacity over 12,000 lbs or so. Show horses, the trailer is 1800 lbs. Toss in 4 horses at 1200 a peice. Now add another 1000 lbs of tack, blankets, buckets, feed and supplies for the shows. 7600 lbs for the shows. Usually have a 600 lb camper top too. So at 8200 lbs of pulling/cargo capacity needed, no imports make much like it. Especially for $34,000 at the time. The truck has had NO problems. 50k miles on it. And if you want to get me started on truck motors, I love the Cummins deisel used by Dodge. Guy a knew, was an animal transport driver (basically guy picks up a load of animals and drive them elsewhere in the country) with a Ram. He had 1.2 Million miles. The base motor had been rebuilt once. He'd eaten like 5 transmissions in that time, and 3 turbos. Truck still ran well, and looked good. (He did love that truck too, so it had custom body panels and other goodies done too.)

And at this point, I've written a book, so, since my teeth are hurting now (had my 4 wisdom teeth pulled yesterday) I'll end my post. For anyone who wants to see my car, www.cardomain.com/id/iceheart Bought the car for $15,000 with 54,000 miles on it. Have about $10,000 in aftermarket goodies on it.

ShadowLvr

08-12-2003, 06:02 PM

Ok food, and a bit of pain meds, ready to return. Now, I heard mention of the Pontiac Aztec. Ugly as shit, I will not argue. BUT, it is an important car. It is the first attempt into a new market, a new segment. College kids. Kids with bands, surfing, skate-boarding, extreme BMX, para sailing, sky diving, hiking, etc. And not a lot of money. So, we need cheap, unique vehicles, with a LOT of space. Pontiac Vibe, Aztec, Honda Element, Toyota's new Scion division, Mazda Protege Mp3 wagoney sportster, Subaru Baja, and similar. Vehicles that are pretty fun, with very competent sound systems to begin with, and a lot of cargo capacity for low prices. Vehicles in the low 20's on down to the low teens for prices. With most SUV's starting in the mid 20's on up, and also with the label of soccer mom machines, college kids avoid those. Minivans have just as bad a soccer mom stigma. Plus, they're typically very low on the fun to drive factor. So, ease up on the Aztec, it was a pioneer, it just happened to get shot.
Mercury Marauder. Good concept, poor execution. It just wasn't taken far enough, no questions. Slap the 5.4 Triton motor, and the supercharged 5.4 from the Lightning in 2 trims, do more aggressive styling, and more sportlike handling, and then we'll talk. Better yet, sic the SVT department on a Crown Vic. They've actually been doing a nice job.
And I didn't get to talk much about the European imports. Benz, BMW, Jag, all expensive as shit. No questions about it. The 3 series BMW and C class Benz, both starting in the high 30's, low 40's, I can pick up a Crown Victoria for 5-10k less, and get a lot more car for the buck. Can get into a lot of the Buick and Olds lines for mid to high 20's. (Damn meds messing me up, I had to do a couple of corrections in that last sentence.) If I want sporty sedan, Pontiac is easy. To go into the higher ends, 5 Series, E Class, both starting in the 40's 50's and 60's Start with a Vic toss in some aftermarket and you get just as much, if not more car for the buck. So much stuff for the For 4.6, that with 50k, I can get you a Crown Vic with 500 or 600 horses, some sweet styling, and still have a bunch of cash to play with. All without reliability worries. S class Benz, 7 series BMW, well BMW, all I have to say is I-Drive? Shove it in your eye. When you buy a new car, and there's 2 huge manuals and friggin videos on how to use it? You went overboard. Lets put it this way, with all the aftermarket goodies I have in my car, you can still get in it, start it, and 90% of the car, you'll be able to use without ever reading a manual. Truthfully, the 3 things you won't intuitively know, are the fine audio adjustments, (bass, treble, fade, balance, etc) how to turn my neons on and off, and the nitrous system. (Hid the controls for the nitrous and the neons.) Everything else is obvious, straightforward, and ergonomically, very nice. VW, you're still damn expensive for the car. The beetle, not to be overly rude, but that happy little car still bothers the hell out of me. The original Beetle started as Hitler's "People's Car." Vundervagen. I mean this literally, Hitler is the fuel behind the original Beetle. Then it got turned into one of the 2 biggest hippie cars ever. (The VW Bus being the other.) Hitler also was the fuel behind the Autobahn, but

(will continue later, brother needs ride home)

666fast

08-12-2003, 06:40 PM

You might be right about the Aztek being aimed at my age group. Fortuneatly, it failed miserably. I don't think I've seen any young people driving one. It's mostly middle aged people.
The only problem with aiming cars at a certain age group, particularly my age group, is that the car is horribly ugly. Subaru Baja, please, it's disgusting. It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't use all that plastic crap. i would rather own a Cavalier or even worse, a Neon (non SRT4)
The Scion line isn't bad, in fact they are kind of cool. But I still don't see them selling huge amounts of them.
The Vibe is another car that could be better than it is, it doesn't look bad though.
I like a lot american cars, but there are just as many that I don't like. in fact, I tend to like european cars more than american. But that doesn't mean I'm going to bash american cars.

ShadowLvr is right about the baby boomers. They do like to work on thier own cars, they are the ones that started the whole Hot Rod scene that has evolved into the fast and furious scene.

The only reason I say anything bad about GM is because of where they are headed. they also use that gray plastic shit way to often! They did have build quality problems with some cars, but like any company, it was taken care of quickly. that however doesn't change the fact that it happened. They are on the brink of bankruptcy mostly due to retirements plans. They were much to generous.

fedezyl

08-12-2003, 07:02 PM

wow. you must have cramps in your fingers from so much writing!
Anyways, I agree with you saying all that about the babyboomers, they like tuning their cars...but..I have a couple of words on Jags, BMW and Mercedes, they are expensive because they are worth that money, it's not for no reason that they are leader's in their class...as far as camaro's, firebird's and mustang's being fast, yes they are, until you decide to change direction then you're in for trouble, a couple of reasons for that bad handling, or at least not up to standard handling, a chasis, no one in it's right state of mind would build a sport's car on a chasis, not nowadays, twists to much and makes it hard to set up a good suspension, lack of independent suspension is another one...it's just to old to be able to handle well, and again, and this seems to be the general rule here, anyone can beat anyone if they start tuning car's, I am strictly talking about factory car's, not tuned not anything as they come out of the box, and i'm sorry but american car's still have a long way to go to be good car's out of the box...
Take you'r Cadillac Eldorado, not very fond of that car but I have to reckon that you did a very nice job with it, being understated but with a hint of being faster than usual...
The Jaguar S-TYPE R is in the same segment, as the M5 and RS6 (talking about them new of course, not used, price wise) They are...lighter, faster, more power, better build quality, more ergonomic, and much better handling
Take the Camaro SS, and an M3, about the same horse power, the M3 being lighter and more modern handles a trillion times better than a Camaro SS...
As far as pricing goes...american car's have the advantage...why? well they are american, any import is always going to be more expensive, because they are import's and they are taxed to give the domestic brand's an advantage, and that's in any segment...not only car makers
I have yet to see an american car to be better than an european one, please be objective and don't throw the tuning argument in, or this would be an endless discussion..

ShadowLvr

08-12-2003, 07:04 PM

Ok, where was I? VW, right? Let see... Hitler fueled the Autobahn and the Beetle, Golf, you're a nice little hatchback, but, still little. Civic fighter perhaps. But a bit chunky weight for the size. Jetta, Solid little midsized, though on the smaller end of the midsized scale. Prices will vary though. To get well equipped, it's a pretty solid dent in the wallet still. Passat, you're a mid-sized sedan, with more than mid sized prices. No complaints on the cars themselves, just overpriced.
Audi. One thing first. Try some friggin names!!! A letter and a number do NOT equal a name for a car. A option package, sure, like Z06, or RT/10, SRT-4, GT, Those descripe the specific package. A4, A6, S4, TT. Those don't tell me shit. This goes for all the companies that pull this. You know who you are, Lexus, Acura, etc. (BMW and Benz narrowly avoid this. The 3 series is well enough known, and the specific things do describe the car. 325i 330i, same on 5 and 7. The Benz Classes, C class, E, class, S, class, etc) But, onto the cars. The A4 being the entry level sedan, starting at $25,000, this is NOT entry level. You want entry level, look Cavalier, Civic, Sentra, Escort. Small, subcompacts and compacts with minimal stuff. And 25k to have 2 motors, either 170 horse I4, or a 220 horse V6? No, give me something with enough balls to get out of it's own way for those kinds of prices. The S8's coming out, you're high end sports sedans, plenty of power, plenty of price. Simple styling, but, in the premeir sports sedan, it's half the name. For 60-80K I can still do up a Crown Victoria or an old Caprice to be a lot faster, and even probably out handle eventually. But, I would have to work for it. As for the Audi TT. Too Tiny!! The car does NOT fit an American. I'm not that big, but I am smashed in that car. Plus the visibility ahead. Yikes! If I happen to pull to a light, in order to tell when it changes colors, I need to get out of the car.
Ferrari's, Porsche, Lamborghini, I'll leave alone. Those 3 companies, building dedicated sports cars, (Though Porsche Cayenne....) are excellent cars. Though I'll take a Z06 at 50K or so vs the 911 Turbo's similar performance at 100k. But, those 3 brands, you buy the name as much as the car. But, Porsche Boxster. The thing is NOT worth 50k. My 97 Eldorado, with the few changes I've made, can crush that Boxster on all but the lateral G's. And with those Potenza's I ran for a while, I might be able to hold the lat's.
Volvo. A good safe car, been doing it for years. I have nearly no objections. Just make a ral intro level Volvo to compete and I'd see better future for Volvo. Safe, but no fun peoples. Try playtime! :)

Now, I am NOT saying American companies are perfect. Lord knows, I think some of the programmers that do the Cadillacs need to be castrated with fishing line in front of their children. Plus, GM needs a full sized RWD car. FWD is ok, but try SOMETHING in RWD again. And in the name of all things holy, bring back the Camaro. I can't believe you just forked the market over to the Mustang.
Ford, the truck line you've been ripping from Dodge, it's obvious. Try doing your own thing. In the cars, let SVT go through your lineup some more. I have a feeling you'd be shocked at how well a SVT Victoria would sell. Just think old Impala SS. Things STILL sell up in the 20's, and they ended in 96. The Mustang.... I hate to admit it, since I am a GM fan, but you've been doing well on it lately.. The new, retro look... I once again hate to admit it, but I like it. I do like old style cars, and this new Mustang definately has it's roots in the original. Dodge/Chrysler, I'll leave alone for the moment. They've been doing a great job on the trucks for years. The new Hemi.... It's a bit more hype so far, but I'll give it a chance. The car line, they're in the middle of re-working a lot of things. I respect the ricer/tuner aspect of the new SRT-4. It's actually a good equation. Popular economy car, with basicaly a sports division (think SVT, AMG, or M series) approach. Now let your PVO (which if I recall right, is what DC is calling their sports division) hit some of the other vehicles, and we shall see. I'd like to see a Dodge truck to go after the lightning. And a GM truck. Horsepower wars!! I do know that the Hemi will be seeing a lot of use in the cars soon, and a number of DC cars will go RWD, so for now, my opinion on DC is just on hold. Potential, time to see what they make of it.
And at this point, I'm done for now. Think I hear eyes crossing from all the reading on my posts anyways. :)

AlienDB7

08-12-2003, 07:23 PM

Maybe I'm just 2-3 years too old but I don't see why people would buy one of those ugly boxes (Aztek, Element, Scion, Baja). A normal SUV or hatchback works just as well without the ugly look.

Vibe is a pretty good example of what the american can do to the interior if the bean counters stop interfering with the production. GM designed the interior and toyota provided the platform and powertrain. I believe it sells better than the "redesigned" [ugly] sunfire.

If you read the JD power quality (after 3 years) survey, GM's buick actually has higher rating than toyota, honda and porsche! Check out the ranking at http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/08/pf/autos/bc.autos.durability/

For the initali quality survey ( http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2003028cfull.gif ), the result is even more surprising. Just see it for yourself. Probably the cheaper looking interior has to do with quality improvement :)

ShadowLvr

08-12-2003, 07:31 PM

Ok, Fed... The Mustang has or is switching to Independant suspension, didn't you know? They're still primarily dedicated ot straight line performance, but the newer ones are handling a LOT better. Also, the reason it may seem that the M3 handles better than the Mustang and Camaro is low end grunt. You give either American car too much poke, and the rear happily fishes out. And the M3 is the top of the lin sport 3 series. If you want a fairer fight, take the SVT Mustang and the Camaro SS.
Now on Handling, I have an 03 M3 listed at a .87 on the lateral G. 3523 lbs. 1/4 mile in 13.4 seconds.
Working on finding the SS Camaro. I have the RS, but that was with the 3.8 L V6, and nowhere near the rubber. It pulled a .81 on the lat G.
SVT Mustang shows a 3665 weight
Z28 Camaro in 02 showing at 3433 weight... With a .84 on the skidpad, it barely gives up anything to the M3. This is the Z28 mind you, not the SS which had a even tighter suspensions, and stickier Z rated tires.
Also, with a price in the 30,000 mark as opposed to the 40's of the new Cobra, and M3, I think the SS Camaro is a better bang for buck.

And I gotta run for now. Too much to do...

Sinister Angel

08-12-2003, 07:40 PM

The Camaro SS was tested by road and track at .87 on the skidpad

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=7&article_id=155&page_number=3
That's the proof.

If the m3 is posting a skidpad like that, it seems like they are even to me, and the SS has the low end grunt to get the hell outta those turns like a raped ape.

fedezyl

08-12-2003, 07:42 PM

I know what you're saying about the car's but lateral g's is not everything, the M3 is an overall better car, and as for the price, again the same import vs domestic thing...plus the premium for it being a BMW...you're not only paying performance but build quality and equipement too...the one I like now is the new Mustang coming out with the retro look, if it's even near of what the GT500 was in it's era I would buy one in no time!
I think american car manufacturer's are finally catching up with european car makers, maybe it has something to do with the recent shopping they've been doing at the other side of the pond...(Fiat, Alfa Romeo..)

Sinister Angel

08-12-2003, 07:47 PM

I know what you're saying about the car's but lateral g's is not everything...

Ummm, in turns lateral g's kinda matter...

fedezyl

08-12-2003, 08:00 PM

About Road and Track....i've seen them do intersting times in some car, makes me wonder about the accuracy of their times....

666fast

08-12-2003, 08:28 PM

I have yet to see an american car to be better than an european one, please be objective and don't throw the tuning argument in, or this would be an endless discussion..

M3 at .87 on the skidpad, M3's base cost for a 2003 coupe is $43,000
Grand Prix Comp G is at .83 g's with a base price of $29,000. the M3 is most likely much faster than the Grand Prix in a straight line. Looks like Americans aren't the only ones who care about straight line speed.

The 2004 lincoln LS V8 is aimed at BMW 5 series. It's much cheaper with better performance as well. At $35,225 as the base price, it's a better deal. The 530i is $41,100. About a $6000 savings and a better vehicle.

Here is a small snippet from a review

"Thankfully, the LS's considerable power is well harnessed by its suspension and braking systems. Due to its nearly perfect 52/48 front-to-rear weight distribution, stiff chassis and improved toning of the four-wheel independent suspension, handling is superb and the car responds well to driver input. The suspension on the LS V8 Sport is also stiffer for sharper response and feel than that of the V6 model's. The net result is that there is very little body roll or unwanted movement around corners. Really, you can chuck the LS around like a sport coupe. And you can sense what the car's doing through the seat of your pants — a desirable attribute for any vehicle with sporting aspirations"

The Lincoln LS V8 does O-60mph in 6.42 seconds versus a 530i's 6.9 seconds. The Lincoln has 280bhp and 286 ft/lbs of torque, whereas the BMW 530i has 225bhp and 214 ft/lbs of torque. The top of the line 5 series (540i) is not much faster than the Lincoln.
On Lincoln's official site
http://www.lincolnvehicles.com/vehicles/interior.asp?sVehi=LS
they have something about surprising BMW, but the link won't work for me.

fedezyl

08-12-2003, 08:51 PM

The price difference is probably influenced by the import taxes....
as for the LS, I read about it too, that it handles pretty well and has a good engine, but well, isn't it a Jaguar engine and a Mitsubishi body? I think it's based on the Galant or the bigger one that looks the same...Diamante? maybe??

666fast

08-12-2003, 09:18 PM

Definately not the Diamante, the LS is much cmaller than it.

I highly doubt import taxes are what caused the $6000 difference. It would be a waste if BMW had to pay that much for every car they bring over.
I'm sure the Lincoln is much cheaper to have serviced than the BMW too.

ShadowLvr

08-12-2003, 10:32 PM

LS and Jag... S or X type have the same chassis. The two cars started with the same motor, but Jag recently made changes of one type, and Lincoln took the changes another way. And I found a Car and Driver with the 00 Z28 Camaro pulling a .84 on michelin tires. (I happen to run the same type of tires, and the ride's nice, the traction stinks.) The SS was a step above the Z28. As to your statement that the M3 is better quality? I've heard plenty of complaints about the M3 motor. Only complaints on the LS1 is that it's not easy to tune higher. The rest of the Camaro may lack the plushness of the BMW, but you're taking a luxo sport sedan vs a sports coupe. As for prices, BMW is selling it's name as much as the actual car. And, once again, you're taking the sports team version (SVT, AMG, M, etc) vs a mass production.

Back to this, SVT Mustang Cobra .90 G on the lateral skidpad.
M3 I had was a .87? yea, .87

SVT Cobra, $35,000 390 horse s/c-V8 0-60 in 4.9 0-100 in 11.1 1/4 mile 13.3 @ 108.1 Top speed 155 (Gov)
BMW M3 $45,000 333 Horse I6 0-60 in 4.7 0-100 11.6 1/4 13.3 @106.8 Top speed 155 (Gov)

And since you are determined to use the late Camaro SS, (I couldn't find as many stats for it easily)
$30,000 325 Horse V8 0-60 in 5.5 Top speed of 160 (Gov)

Not too bad, a main production vehicle keeping up quite well with a pair of sports manufacturers. (As a side note, I have heard a number of SS boys say 13.8 in the 1/4 stock, but I don't have that down anywhere, so I won't quote it.)

$10,000 difference between the two specialty cars. $5000 less on the SS

fedezyl

08-13-2003, 03:55 AM

As far as that, since I haven't driven any of either the M3 or Camaro SS, i'm just basing myself on what people say about them...but well...
Let's be objective about it, no more of I love european car's, I love American car's stuff, let's get to the people that drove it, I remember a guy from 5th gear ( i'm sure that jabba has that episode) testing the mustang bullit, and said it's fast but still get it's ass kicked by a clio RS on a B road in the U.K. not my word's, his, he actually drove both, now, since the mustang is one of the class leaders in it's segment it's fair to assume the comparison between the clio and the mustang on a B road..
I think the guy's name was Jason, he is Irish I think...I don't know...
Let's take Clarkson, still thinks the M3 is superior to the RS6, don't remember wich top gear episode though, and finally Tiff Needell, professional race car driver, still thinks that the BMW M product's are the best in overall performance, now what does that say about the mustang, camaro, firebird, take all of those car's stock against an M3 and they WILL get their ass kicked, try it for yourself if you want if you have the money or connections and open your eyes finally that the american atempt to a sports car is only suited to it's own internal market where they do not know better because they've never been in contact with a trully good sport's car, only car's that will go fast in a straight line...
Yes they are expensive, but I still think they are worth the price...
And as far as the 6000 dollar difference, i'm sure at least 3000 is taxes, and for the servicing, you can't ever compare a domestic service with an import servicing, because they are import's, think about logistics and you will get the picture.
As for the LS, it is a Galant then, I'm pretty sure it's a mitsubishi underneath, it would be to much of a coincidence if they looked so much the same, now would I pay 35.000 dollars for a mitsubishi galant lookalike?? I woulda have to be on crack....

fedezyl

08-13-2003, 04:09 AM

Forgot a couple of things, the SS is the equivalent to an M3, the X-Type and S-Type do not have the same platform, the X-type is a Mondeo platform..
The M3 engine is a 3.2 liter 343 BHP engine, the SVT Mustang is a supercharged 4.6 liter 390 BHP engine, now, supercharging an engine and still not breaking the 100bhp/liter barrier sounds to me ridiculous, still a very fast car, just a half ass fast car though, not realising it's full potential...
I don't like the idea of american car's being fast because they supercharge and make a huge v-8 and get a stiffer suspension, a fast or quick car requires a little bit more than a bigger engine, bigger tires and stiffer suspension, there's no clever thinking in american sport's car making, just the idea of bigger is better, and that's why they get their arses kicked....

And again as far as pricing is concerned....well..look at a Camaro SS interior and an M3 interior and see for yourself....
I've seen both and well I haven't really been impressed by the Camaro's interior...
I have this great police chase video of a police Camaro chasing an E36 M3 I think, the old one, they are both doing 150 mph on the highway when the guy on the M3 swerves to the left lane to scare the cop who was right next to him, the cop makes a quick reflex turn with the steering wheel and inmediately the Camaro just looses control while the M3 just keeps on going....look for it on Kazaa and you'll see what i'm talking about, handling is the key, anyone with enough money can go fast in a straight line, the real challenge is to do so and be able to be fast on turn's at the same time...
oh well...this is endless, anyone who may wan't to contribute with argument's to this discussion is more than welcome, i'm more than willing to change my mind if proven wrong, but for what i've seen I still hold my position of american sport's cars coming short of the objective of being a true overall sport's car..

draak666

08-13-2003, 04:29 AM

"Thankfully, the LS's considerable power is well harnessed by its suspension and braking systems. Due to its nearly perfect 52/48 front-to-rear weight distribution, ..., handling is superb and the car responds well to driver input.

The BMW has perfect 50/50 weight distribution. :P

draak666

08-13-2003, 04:37 AM

Audi. One thing first. Try some friggin names!!! A letter and a number do NOT equal a name for a car. A option package, sure, like Z06, or RT/10, SRT-4, GT, Those descripe the specific package. A4, A6, S4, TT. Those don't tell me shit.

OK, now you're just talking crap. Sorry. 8)

draak666

08-13-2003, 05:01 AM

I've heard plenty of complaints about the M3 motor.

As for prices, BMW is selling it's name as much as the actual car.

I've read the complaints too. It's about some guy, who heard that some guy had problems with it. Other people pick it up, and then you have several guys who know a story about a guy that wasn't too pleased on his m3 engine...

All I know is, the m3 engine has won several prices, is state of the art and is as reliable as any other BMW engine.

And finally, if you're tuning your engine and buying yourself a new suspension that's gonna cost you the same amount as at what BMW sells it's name for. Plus, a car maker spends years of time and tons of money in R&D, so don't think that you can match their performance if you buy some stiffer suspension in the stores. I admit, you can choose the suspension you like best, but the difference will still be huge if you try to copy e.g. the m3 or Lotus suspension.

Sinister Angel

08-13-2003, 05:18 AM

Forgot a couple of things, the SS is the equivalent to an M3, the X-Type and S-Type do not have the same platform, the X-type is a Mondeo platform..
The M3 engine is a 3.2 liter 343 BHP engine, the SVT Mustang is a supercharged 4.6 liter 390 BHP engine, now, supercharging an engine and still not breaking the 100bhp/liter barrier sounds to me ridiculous, still a very fast car, just a half ass fast car though, not realising it's full potential...

Erm, the whole HP/liter thing is such a ricer excuse it's not even funny. There's a tuner saturn running around with 300 hp on a 1.9 litre motor. Whoopde fuck. I could care less

And again as far as pricing is concerned....well..look at a Camaro SS interior and an M3 interior and see for yourself....
I've seen both and well I haven't really been impressed by the Camaro's interior...

Um, yeah, as we mentioned before, the M3 is more of a Luxury Sports Coupe. The Camaro is more designed just for performance.

I have this great police chase video of a police Camaro chasing an E36 M3 I think, the old one, they are both doing 150 mph on the highway when the guy on the M3 swerves to the left lane to scare the cop who was right next to him, the cop makes a quick reflex turn with the steering wheel and inmediately the Camaro just looses control while the M3 just keeps on going....look for it on Kazaa and you'll see what i'm talking about, handling is the key, anyone with enough money can go fast in a straight line, the real challenge is to do so and be able to be fast on turn's at the same time...

The chump in the M3 is obviously going to be more controlled in his little maneuver. The cop wasn't going to expect it, he obviously over corrected. You can switch cars and I guarantee you unless you had a professional driver, the same thing would have happened.

ShadowLvr

08-13-2003, 10:48 AM

On the Jag vs the LS, I had said the LS is on the same platform as one of the two jags. S-type or the X-type. One of those two Jags shares the Lincoln LS Platform.
And why the focus on horsepower per liter? Ever hear of torque? If you want to see torque in action take the M3, and the SS, stop at a red light, and start both cars in 2nd gear. See which one goes forward, and which one stalls. You're also thinking of peak horsepower vs sustained. I've had this lesson shown to me recently by a fellow domestic. He has a 96 Caprice with the LT1, 260 horse, 330 torque. My caddy has 275 stock horse, probably more like 295 as it stands now, and 315 torque. But my power curve is far more of a curve than the Caprice. He has me in 1/4 mile currently by .2 seconds. 14.5 in a 4200 lbs car, with 260 horse. I had a 14.7 in the 1/4 4100 lbs of car. The M3 has to be wound up to 5 and 6 k to get any of it's power. The Camaro hits peak torque at 3200, (Has over 200 ft lbs on tap since about 1800) and the peak horse I think at 5000. But it keeps over 75% of it's horsepower through a large portion of it's revs. The M3 spikes.
And once again, you're forgetting that the size of American motors is partly because they see usage in cars and trucks. (GM puts a slightly bigger version of the LS1 in the trucks.) Displacement was brought up to 6.0L. The LS1 does not currently run in any big sedans, but GM does have it slated to return to the new RWD sedans coming out. (Pontiac GTO also seeing the LS1 and LS6 I believe, but it's a coupe.) For those outside the states, think Holden HSV Coupe with some revisions for US bumper laws.
And Fed, you mentioed a guy who drove a Mustang. Which Mustang with which motor? There's base Mustang 200 horse 3.8 V6. Mustang GT, with OHV 4.6 at 260 horse, Mach 1 with DOHC 4.6 at 305? 300? somethig in there... and then Mustang Cobra with S/C DOHC 4.6 with 390 horse. And, maybe I'm forgetting something about motor sizes, but Doesn't BMW use a 5.0L V8 in the M5?
And to come to the SVT's defense on the power marks. Part of the reason it stands at 390 is the supercharger Ford used. To save money, they outsourced to a supercharger company. Either Garrett, or Eaton. I forget which, though I'm leaning towards Eaton. Well, whichever company it was, Roots style blowers isn't their best product. The centrifugal is the style they're better at. But, because of pricing, Ford outsourced to them. A sizable portion of SVT owners made the jump to some of the other s/c makers who make more efficient Roots style blowers. And they picked up some ponies doing it.
But, back to the efficiencies of US motors again. The automakers deliberately leave more potential in their motors for their consumers. Especially in certain cars like the Mustang, Camaro, Focus, Cavalier, etc. The tuner cars are being built so they can be tuned easily. Pop the hood of a Camaro, even the SS with a 5.7 in it, and you'll still have room to climb in the engine bay and close the hood on yourself. The car is easy to work on, and is supposed to be. Mustang is a little tighter in engine space, but still roomy. And Ford practically forces the computer programs on various aftermarket companies. You pick a year Mustang (that uses computers in it's motor) and I can find you 4 companies that make at least 1 chip or programmer for it. Chevy is nearly as easy. (Companies like Superchips inc. Hypertech, Jet performance, and Diablo) Extra space is built into the cars for the tuner markets. Ford, Chevy, and DC (Dodge/Chrysler conglomerate) each run their own shops designed for performance. GM Performance Parts, Powered By Ford, and Mopar Performance Parts. All 3 segments offer crate motors, exhausts, chips themselves, suspension upgrades, etc. How much space is in the M3 engine bay?
Thinking of which, a new house is going up across the street. Resident is coming in with an 00 Lightning. Farther in the devlopment is 3 Camaros of various years, an 87 Monte Carlo SS, Gen 1 Mustang ('65) a C3 Vette, guy with Chevy Silverado with work done on his Duramax deisel, and a Viper. Also have some show vehicles, an old Nomad, a 59 Chevy truck, a Plymouth Fury, a low ride hopper truck (the ones that jump up and down), some riced out accord with stereo so powerful it blows women's clothes off. Hehe I think that nearly 1/3rd of the 200 homes has a tuner of some sort in the garage. I may have to make a list of all the custom cars in the development. It's actually pretty interesting.
But this is in Florida mind you, lot of old people here, and a lot of young college students as well. (Kind of an interesting state. It's a lot of one or the other... Either old, or young.) The older gen tends to have the restored classics, mostly for show. The young gen does the newer cars, or restored and souped up old muscle cars.

Damn, gotta cut this off, one of the dogs has made an escape. Bleh.

Sinister Angel

08-13-2003, 12:06 PM

The 03 Cobras use an Eaton. The model is what I'm not exactly sure of, but I *think* it's an M112.

ShadowLvr

08-13-2003, 01:15 PM

Thanks Sin. Either way, it's a model that a lot of the Cobra boys don't like, so they're making a switch to some more efficient, and more controlled blowers. Many, doing the work at home in their own garage. Information on how to do it is in many of the Mustang forums.

fedezyl

08-13-2003, 03:06 PM

I don't like japanese car's, so i'm not a "ricer", about your torque thing, engine is not as big as the gearing is, torque at the wheel is what matters and that can be changed with gearing, a flat torque curve is more suited to everyday use, and I hate drag racing so I don't even care about wich car goes faster in a straight line, anyone can do that....I still want to see the camaro and an M3 in a racetrack and see who wins...same driver and conditions...

And of course again we on to the tuning thing....tuning is endless, I mean just look at race cars, and you will see what I mean, you can do a million things to a car and get more horsepower, you can turbocharge jabba's Lambo and get 2000 hp out of it, again I am talking about STOCK, out of the factory cars, not tuned or anything, and if you say Ford cut some costs on a supercharger who knows on what else they cut cost's on, interior quality for sure...not only it's ugly to look at but it also shakes and rattles like an old fiat....

I don't know why people in the U.S. focus so much on torque, do you what it is anyways? did you know that BHP is a product of torque? what's the use of having so much torque if you have to change gears at 5500 rpm's, well while you are in your camaro changing gears guess what, i'll be still accelerating harder until my 8000 rpm redline....after all, changing gears is when you loose most of your time...
Oh well...

If I may request the opinion of ST-ANGER, I beleive he worked at Porsche and is an automobile engineer, so he probably has the knowledge to see who's right or wrong or whatever the point of this discussion is..

Sinister Angel

08-13-2003, 05:01 PM

I don't know why people in the U.S. focus so much on torque, do you what it is anyways? did you know that BHP is a product of torque? what's the use of having so much torque if you have to change gears at 5500 rpm's, well while you are in your camaro changing gears guess what, i'll be still accelerating harder until my 8000 rpm redline....after all, changing gears is when you loose most of your time...
Oh well...
.

Umm, it's common sense that horsepower is a product of torque. In fact I can tell you the equation if you want. As for saying having a HP peak at higher RPM is better because you are still "accelerating" is a really ignorant and simple minded idea. While you are "accelerating", I'll be halfway down the straight. Brute torque kind of allows stuff like that to happen. Going on your reasoning, you would basicly say that a car with a motor that could rev 1 million RPM be better than lets say... my 85 HP saturn. This car has to be better because it also pushes 950 HP. Of course it is, right, more than 10 times the horsepower and all, but then we look at the torque rating, and this is assuming a flat rating. We would have 5 ft-lbs. That "awesome car" would take off like a fucking dog tied to a tree. That's what torque does, it gives you the initial get up and go, which is good if you want to have longer gears for the straight stretches for top speed, and some grunt to get out of those turns w/o having to constantly be at redline.

Oh yeah, your 8000 RPM motor isn't going to develop any power untill at least 5k anyway.

Nemisis8u

08-13-2003, 06:20 PM

HOLY SHIT :shock:, you guys are writing novels here.

Nemisis8u

08-13-2003, 07:03 PM

By the way why are you comparing an SS to an m3? They are in a different league and in a different price range. I am looking at an official program for the 2002 Canadian International Auto show. It contains the prices and some of the specs for all cars available in Canada. Since we are talking about the SS and assuming it is not a convertible the price for it is $35,375 cnd, the price for the M3 (the cheapest one so I’m assuming that its a hard top) is $73,500. So comparing an M3 To an SS is dumb and pointless. You may bring up the "tax" issue, but let’s face it the M3 is a more then double the price of the SS. So stop comparing them two. As far as I can see it a more appropriate contender would be the Z06. The cost of a Z06 is $62,400/70,780 and the M3 is $73,500/83,500. The More expensive one is probably the convertible. To be fair lets compare the base models (the ones that are the cheapest). M3 is about $10,000 more expensive then the Z06, this is more then enough to justify the "Tax" issue. Road and track did a high-speed handling test of 8 cars
1. 360 Modena
2. Z06
3. 911 Turbo
4. Lotus Elise
5. Evo VII
6. M3 Coupe
7. Boxter S
8. Mazda MP3
The Z06 came in 5th while the M3 came in 7th. I’ll look for the article and see if I can find it. This comparison is dumb. It’s like comparing a Civic hatchback to an M Coupe. Do you see what I am trying to say?

666fast

08-13-2003, 08:21 PM

[quote="Nemisis8u"]By the way why are you comparing an SS to an m3? quote]

I was just about to say the same thing. The M3 in my opinion is a better car, but it's also a hell of a lot more. The price difference cannot be blamed on import taxes either.
I know what fedezyl is talking about when it comes modified cars, it's a money contest. The question shouldn't be how fast do you want to go, it should be how much money do you want to spend?

Lets face it, all manufacturers have build quality problems at one point or another. You know, GM and misaligned body panels, get a Fiat wet and it might not start.

As for the article that Nemisis mentioned, I know that a Z06 will be faster than an M3, I'd sure as hell hope so. Afterall, it's the only american sportscar.
If I had to choose between the two, it would definately be the Vette. I'm not saying the M3 is not a nice car, it definately is but I'd rather have a Corvette.

We can go all day long about who makes beter cars, because it'll come down to opinions and what it is we want out of a car. People who don't live here think american cars a big, and crap handling. Fact is, they handle just fine and people want big cars here.
I don't like the F360, does that mean it's junk? No
I like the Dodge Avengers, does that mean it's the best? No

Just because you don't like a certainc ar, it doesn't mean it's junk.
Just because you like a car a lot, it doesn't mean it's the best car ever or even in it's class.