Best compact 4 Zylinder engine?

[Sm@ck]

Hello everyone,


A few friends and I are looking into constructing our own "fun car" for racing on track days, especially on the Nürbergring (maybe even getting a street license)

We are currently looking at several options. At the moment we are seriously toying with the idea of taking a "Smart Roadster Coupe" and upgrading the car.

We already have searched all the big (and known small) Smart tuners, and their current solutions for the smart simply suck! Even Brabus latest release (commercial release of Smart Brabus Coupe with 101hp) simply wont do. The claimed results are to be taken with a grain of salt, and to be honest I could overlook the power problem, if it where not for the crappiest automobile gearbox solution of the last decade.
The closest to our "ideal solution" would be that brabus V6 1.4 liter (made of 2 smart engines combined). However there are many problems with this thing!
1) One cannot buy it (and its not a money issue)
2) Even if we could buy it, I would doubt that this engine is any good. It would probably be a pain in the ass to maintain, and be hugely expensive, since it is not mass produced.
3) I dont believe any of the numbers Brabus released with the car. "those are theoretic numbers, imo" and I wonder how good the motor, dont want to repair/maintain the thing every day.
4) as far as I know, the gearbox is still shit and a similiar solution to the standard smart roadsters
5) I dont think in Daimler Chrysler they had a good inhouse solution thats why they resorted to fusing 2 engines!
6) The idea of this project is to get our hands dirty and learn about cars, engines, turbos, transmissions, track setup (and not drive finished products)

So the only viable option is to put in a "small" 4 cylinder.
Probably looking at 1.4 liters - 2.0 Litres (max) depends on the compactness of the engine. Our biggest problems will be fitting/finding the "gearbox". An "SMG" would be nice!

SO in lamens terms I want the 4 cylinder equivalent of the R26-DETT.
I need an engine that is widely available (mass produced), and has lots of tuning options availabe. So most likely I am looking at JApanese engines, because these also have extensive after market tuning available for there smaller cars.
Offcourse I will be looking at VW engines too, and natrually I have to consider engines of current available MR cars as the one in the MG-tf (from 115, 160) or toyota solutions. However ideally we want a different solution than the ones available in current MR cars. OTherwise we might as well not bother with our project and just buy one of those cars.

Anyway I would be greatful if people had any suggestions, especially regarding JApanese engines! and maybe even some American or UK engines that I am overlooking! I already am familiar with the product line of VW and Opel, and have made a small database with the essential facts, weight, dimensions, output, tuning products available etc..

There are many factors which will be important, right now we are just brainstorming. We are greatful for any input, links would be nice! Ideally offcourse wa database with all the worlds 4 Zylinders! :D.


P.S I realize that a project like this will cost somewhere around 40,000-70,000 Euros per car ( maybe even more), and I am not saying I will do it! I am toying with the idea, I can always buy a Porsche GT-3 later :D

[stracing]

4A-GE very compact little 1.6 litre
B16A or B, the civic type-r one. another 1.6 litre

or how bout the F20C? the king of 4 cylinders

how bout some bike engines? a few kit cars uses the hayabusa engine.

[Sm@ck]

4A-GE very compact little 1.6 litre
B16A or B, the civic type-r one. another 1.6 litre

or how bout the F20C? the king of 4 cylinders

how bout some bike engines? a few kit cars uses the hayabusa engine.

F20C, excellent idea we overlooked that one! That would be definetly intresting, and definetly goes at the top of the list! Of "ideal engines", then again building in a tranverse engine would make life alot easier. + F20C are difficult to tune. Maybe to be attempted at a later stage, when we have some expierence building in engines, for teh Smart Roadster Coupe

The bike engines, would be too noisy I think! I am not sure I can find enough sufficient information on that material. Then again that would be cool, hehe, but the car might be too heavy for it!

4A-GE link: http://www.club4ag.com/faq%20and%20tech_pages/4A-GE%20Engine%20Block.htm

[Sm@ck]

http://www.smartsrus.com/evil_twin_z-cars.htm

Smart roadster with motorbike engine!

[Garretts_turbo]

one engine to look into is mitsubishi's 4G63 (turbo). stock, it puts out about 210 horespower. its been around for more than 14 years, lots of people have tuned them and they are reliable....

[jorge]

The engine in the Celica seems to be a very good one, and if you know well the VW range, maybe you want to try the 1.8 T, i think its a very reliable engine.

[nthfinity]

hmm.... used Saabs :) turbo of course, and tons of track-able performance. id highly recomend the 9000t from 88-91 with the 2.0. i used to have one, and i can only imagine how fast i could've been had it not seen the light of Detroit :(

IMO, its my favorite 4 cyl. FWD, and it handles predictable as well. there is a huge aftermarket for these cars

[Igorionia]

SR20DET ;)
4G63
B16A
and maybe S2000 Engine ;)

[Sm@ck]

The s2000 is not an option, way too expensive, and too difficult to built into the car. And Size and weight will still be an issue...
But the engine response of the s2000 is great! And thats what I would want! The only other issue is Torque, and I would have added a small turbo to the s2000 to increase the torque with out sacrifing durability too much, and engine response.

hmm the Saab, I am sceptical I will look into it, I know they are good, but the engine might be too big in dimensions. + Are there really that many Saab tuners?

Lotus announced the new Elise with a toyota engine, (and whats good enough for Lotus is good enough for us too) :P

[ae86_16v]

4A-GE link: http://www.club4ag.com/faq%20and%20tech_pages/4A-GE%20Engine%20Block.htm

4A-GE very compact little 1.6 litre


Yes 4A-GE is great :lol: .

No, you might consider the 20v version. That isn't too expensive and has all the new stuff such as variable valve timing and lift control.

[brijoel]

wow no one suggested the 3sgte? amazing, these engines are right up there with the 4g63 in terms of ability to take big power. not only that, but the crank is forged and good to 600hp on its own and the rods are good for 450 hp for a goood while.... something the 4g63 cant come close to in terms of the crank at least. the 4g63, on the other hand, has HUGE head ports that allows for crazy boost on pump gas. the 3sgte has very well sorted ports and will the head will supposedly end up being able to be good for bigger hp once race ported.

4age's are always fun and can make decent hp, but you will be very limited in power production. if you want a super high revving motor that will still have some left in it, along with not totally gutless torque characteristics either, stick with the 2zzge. although, tuning engines that run on OBDIII is a PAIN IN THE A$$!!!

my final suggestion is to go with a honda b18c type r motor. crazy revs, almost 200 hp, OBDII ecu, and honda reliability......and im not one to normally endorse honda either. :shock:

[Caplax40]

one engine to look into is mitsubishi's 4G63 (turbo). stock, it puts out about 210 horespower. its been around for more than 14 years, lots of people have tuned them and they are reliable....

Totally agree on that one. Do you know if they still have that crankwalk problem? Or was that just on the 2G Eclipse talon. This kid I work with had a talon after his VR4 got hit and he said he had a lot of problems with the crankwalk issue.

Other engines I would checkout (in no particular order):

1.) SR20DET (came in the Silvia and Pulsar/Sunny GTI-R)
2.) 3sgte (MR2 turbo of course and in the phenominal Top Secret Supra)
3.) And since you guys are in Europe what about the new Civic Type-R's engine? Don't know a whole lot about it but the old type r engine that was in the Integra (USDM) was pretty good with plenty of flexibility in the power band plus the ability to be turbo'd or supercharged was a big plus as well. Not a bad engine IMO. The US Integra Type-R is a great car just dissapointing that it's FWD!!!!! :cry:

[dutchmasterflex]

20V 4AGE!

[AMG E55]

The new Evo 8 4 banger

[caneswell]

http://www.smartsrus.com/evil_twin_z-cars.htm

Smart roadster with motorbike engine!

Yep would be my choice. Light weight fast and sequential gearbox! Then when you get bored fit a turbo kit!

[Silvia_Drift]

The SR20DET, CA18DET or EJ25.

[chaos]

5) I dont think in Daimler Chrysler they had a good inhouse solution thats why they resorted to fusing 2 engines!


why is that?
its aperfectly acceptable solution to use the heads an pistons etc of a good engine to make a larger V version.
In effect this is what was doen to make the Mclaren V12 for the F1 for example, yes there are more changes but the basic design is that of 2 x M3 sixes in a V.


On other engines there are some good ones mentioned, but have you considered the engine from a wrecked e30 M3, Integra Type R or CRX VTEC.
If u want to go the turbo route the CA18DET from an s13 200sx wouldnt be a bad choice.

[s13sr20det]

RWD
S13 SR20DET 205hp/203tq
S14 SR20DET 220hp/203tq
S15 SR20DET 250hp/203tq 6 spd

Available in FWD also

Seen these things in everything from 300zx to BMW

[danroz]

Ill build you a list to re-cap, maybe you should build a poll

1.SR20DET- Very good turbo motor but even though its all aluminum I still think its too heavy
2.4G63- The reliable motor for DSMs everywhere but a lot of boost and you have crankwalk issues
3.B18C- I leave this open cus you either get the GSR version or the Type r which makes 200hp...either case its made for light cars, high revs, and loads of fun without the torque :lol:
4.4AGE- Very cheap and easy to find and good if you want to just mess around but it does get expensive some people say... turbo versions are nice
5.F22A (S2K Engine)- Very expensive since its just out on the market but its the best NA 4 banger out there
6.3SGTE- This thing is a beast. As far as I know there hasnt been any issues with it and they are freakin awesome, might have weight issues though
7.RB20DET- Why no one mentioned these I dont know... The straight 6 turbo in the smallest package, you could stroke it out but once again weight is an issue, power won't be
8.2ZZ- 1.8L 190hp and its all alluminum, there is a torque issue when the system switches to the vvti cam (40 lbs tq loss :shock: ) but they are reliable and fun like the b18's

My personal choice would probably be the b18c5 (type r) for the application your doing. They rev like crazy and if money isnt an issue there have been cases of 260 naturally aspirated horses @ 11k rpm...turbo versions up to 560hp (its scary to think that but there are rare cases)

Am I missing anything?

[Atlas]

Maybe look at a rotary?? If you're looking at weight case in point - RX8. Everyone knows the tuning potential of rotaries =)

[danroz]

Maybe look at a rotary?? If you're looking at weight case in point - RX8. Everyone knows the tuning potential of rotaries =)

Rotaries break down too often

[black_magician]

I'd go with honda's B18C1 (1.8L), it's great for forced induction, and you can get about 450HP out of it, if you tune it right. But I'm usually partial to Honda

[black_magician]

and since its a honda, it'll run forever

[findleybeast]

in support of the rotary suggestion - not only weight but size as well. since you're trying to fit the engine into a smart, the fact that rotaries are smaller than nearly any 4 cyl and will rev like crazy is a big advantage. only drawback is that they're not transversely mounted.

[findleybeast]

also the new renesis engine in the rx8 also doesn't have as many of the reliability problems that plagued the older rx7 rotaries

one a side note, if you're not totally set on the smart roadster, you may want to look into the Attack by K1 Styling. it's an easy to assemble kit car and it has a really big engine bay and is inexpensive. since this is a project with your buddies, it may be fun to build the car completely from the ground up.

http://www.k1-styling.sk/

[danroz]

also the new renesis engine in the rx8 also doesn't have as many of the reliability problems that plagued the older rx7 rotaries


Ummm Mazda had a big recall on the Renesis engine as soon as it came out of the factory...They were not makin the power that was claimed (I think thats the basis of a recall

[oldsnail]

toyota
1.6L 4age 20V 170hp
1.6L 4agze 145hp
2.0L BEAMS 3sge 200-215hp
1.8L 2zzge 180-200hp
2.0L 3sgte 200-265hp

honda
i like b18's coz more of them are DOHC

[findleybeast]

Ummm Mazda had a big recall on the Renesis engine as soon as it came out of the factory...They were not makin the power that was claimed (I think thats the basis of a recall


good point, though i was thinking more in terms of apex seal degradation and the like.

[M-pulse]

CA18-DET weight 126kg

SR20-DET weights 148kg

CA18-DET's have nice features for how old they are, and everything inside them is forged, but they lack a decent head gasket.

Upgrade the head gasket and throw all the other usual mods onto them and they can rev to 8k all day.

But they dont make the impressive torque figures of the SR20 alas. But still a rock solid engine

they are cast iron yes, but main advantage that have forged pistons, conrods and crank. Tough block 2nd to the FJ20-ET

[M-pulse]

6A12G 1998cc quad-cam 24 valve mivec 205 hp
4E-FTE 1331cc dohc about 140hp

[Bling]

4g63 beacuse i have one, and the motor has some serious balls, also the engine management is easy to tune on
which is NOT the case on say a ej20
sr20det is a great motor, stout block which ive seen/helped modify to make 450 rwhp
the old ford escort cosworth motor
or a 3s-gte...i mean top secret runs one in their top speed supra, so you know its go potential

[Boltz]

N/A

I would go with one of the honda k20's from an RSX-S or a JDM Integra Type R, They easily make over 200whp with a nice intake and exhaust along with a reflash.

If not I would do a B18C1 out of a 1994-2001 Integra GS-R

F/I

6 Bolt 4G63 from a First gen. DSM

Honda D16z6 with a gt28rs and hondata :lol:

[PaulGT2164]

Ummm Mazda had a big recall on the Renesis engine as soon as it came out of the factory...They were not makin the power that was claimed (I think thats the basis of a recall


thats because stupid people that run the dynos dont realize the cars computer can sense when there is no airflow and cuts the power....

rotary motors are perfectly reliable, the people that say they arent 99% of the time dont have any experience from them, or working on them. you put good oil in one, and run high octance gas only, and the rotary motor will run forever, people just didnt know how to properly maintain them.

my choices for the best 4 cylinder or small displacement motors would be :

3SGTE : awesome motor, found in toyota celica alltrac and gt fours, mr2 turbos, the naturally aspirated version is the 3sge and found in the jap spec is200 and is 300s, the 3sgte can make over 700+hp prperly built, and there are not majorly weak points, typical to a toyota motor

4AGE : 1.6 liter motor, extremely rev happy and responsive, several varints, the most potent being the 220 hp 11000 rpm group A motor for racing, and the supercharged 140-170hp 4AGZE version, DOHC too

1ZZfe and 2ZZFE, the newest toyota four cylinders, found in the matrix, corolla, and celica, the 2ZZFe makes 180hp and the 1ZZFE makes 140 hp, bot have VVTI and DOHC, 1.8 liters

B16 : Honda, found in a lil bit of everything, the B16A1 makes 160hp, and the B16A2 makes 170hp, both are DOHC and VTEC, one company even sticks these or B18s in old Minis!

B18 : 1.8 Liter motor made by honda, 185 hp in the b18c1 variant (lower compression, better for turbo) and 200+ hp in the B18C5 variant

K20 : newer Honda 2 liter DOHC VTEC motor, 200hp, HAsport makes mount to install this motor in most hondas

SR20DET : Nissan 2 liter made famous by the silvia, 240 hp in the latest variant, can make over 600hp

KA24DE : american 240SX nissan motor, found in most nissan 4 cylinder trucks and older altimas, lots of aftermarket and good stock output, and cheap

4G63 : Mitsubishi motor found in eclipse turbos and talon turbos, 215hp stock and very strong, one variant also used in the EVO making 250+ hp

420A : chrystler/ dodge motor, very mechanically similar to the mitsubishi 2 liter four, this engine is strong, huge aftermarket , with DOHC and SOHC versions, found in neons, avengers, stratuses, etc

H22/H23 : Honda Prelude motors, 200+ hp depending on variants

D16Zc : SOHC VTEC engine found in the 92-95 Civic Si and the 92-95 honda del sol Si, 123 HP 1.6 liter, small, cheap, and large aftermarket

5SFE : Toyota motor, found in older celica GT, and four cylinder camrys and some rav4s, good output, and tough, and cheap =)

13B : Rotay, 1.3 liters, anywhere from 110 hp to 160 hp NA, 210hp to 255 hp turbo.



i prefer toyota motors, but there are alot of really good 4bangers =)

[graywolf624]

Ummm Mazda had a big recall on the Renesis engine as soon as it came out of the factory...They were not makin the power that was claimed (I think thats the basis of a recall


thats because stupid people that run the dynos dont realize the cars computer can sense when there is no airflow and cuts the power.... "

Incorrect. In this case the car was actually not making the hsp rated. They gave everyone involved a few options, including returning the car or getting an extended warrenty.

[PaulGT2164]

Incorrect. In this case the car was actually not making the hsp rated. They gave everyone involved a few options, including returning the car or getting an extended warrenty.


no you are incorrect. mazda stated the hp rating at 255hp.....SCC determined that the underated HP was due to the computer not picking up airflow and retarding the timing to reduce chances of overheat (primary enemy of a rotary) this was also varified by several other independant dynos and experts. mazda gave the rebates and what not cause most people would bitch and whine regardless, like the current situation with hyundias or kias being overated by 4hp and its gonna cost them millions.
the rx-8 situation was caused be people not familiar with the cars electronics, if you put the car on a dyno, and put say a 75mph wind in front of it, i would bet it makes the right HP, or put it on an engine dyno with a workaround for the airflow

i know this cause i work on rotaries often, including 2 RX-8s....

[graywolf624]

no you are incorrect. mazda stated the hp rating at 255hp.....SCC determined that the underated HP was due to the computer not picking up airflow and retarding the timing to reduce chances of overheat (primary enemy of a rotary) this was also varified by several other independant dynos and experts. mazda gave the rebates and what not cause most people would bitch and whine regardless, like the current situation with hyundias or kias being overated by 4hp and its gonna cost them millions.
the rx-8 situation was caused be people not familiar with the cars electronics, if you put the car on a dyno, and put say a 75mph wind in front of it, i would bet it makes the right HP, or put it on an engine dyno with a workaround for the airflow

i know this cause i work on rotaries often, including 2 RX-8s....

Funny, thats not what mazda and my dealer says. I guess mazda just recalled the car cause of someone elses screw up.. yeah sure thats believable. Car companies are out to make money.. People bitching is better then people sueing.

Furthermore, your talking about a 75 mph wind... so that means your not getting the correct hsp in 1st second or 3rd gears apparently if I understand you correctly.. So the only time someone is going to get a proper run without retarded timing is already going 75 and hitting the gas.. Thats kinda useless considering very few places do you accelerate hard from 75 mph.

You have even said you assume it will make the right hp. Well Im telling you it doesnt.

[danroz]

Ummm Mazda had a big recall on the Renesis engine as soon as it came out of the factory...They were not makin the power that was claimed (I think thats the basis of a recall


thats because stupid people that run the dynos dont realize the cars computer can sense when there is no airflow and cuts the power....

rotary motors are perfectly reliable, the people that say they arent 99% of the time dont have any experience from them, or working on them. you put good oil in one, and run high octance gas only, and the rotary motor will run forever, people just didnt know how to properly maintain them.

my choices for the best 4 cylinder or small displacement motors would be :

3SGTE : awesome motor, found in toyota celica alltrac and gt fours, mr2 turbos, the naturally aspirated version is the 3sge and found in the jap spec is200 and is 300s, the 3sgte can make over 700+hp prperly built, and there are not majorly weak points, typical to a toyota motor

4AGE : 1.6 liter motor, extremely rev happy and responsive, several varints, the most potent being the 220 hp 11000 rpm group A motor for racing, and the supercharged 140-170hp 4AGZE version, DOHC too

1ZZfe and 2ZZFE, the newest toyota four cylinders, found in the matrix, corolla, and celica, the 2ZZFe makes 180hp and the 1ZZFE makes 140 hp, bot have VVTI and DOHC, 1.8 liters

B16 : Honda, found in a lil bit of everything, the B16A1 makes 160hp, and the B16A2 makes 170hp, both are DOHC and VTEC, one company even sticks these or B18s in old Minis!

B18 : 1.8 Liter motor made by honda, 185 hp in the b18c1 variant (lower compression, better for turbo) and 200+ hp in the B18C5 variant

K20 : newer Honda 2 liter DOHC VTEC motor, 200hp, HAsport makes mount to install this motor in most hondas

SR20DET : Nissan 2 liter made famous by the silvia, 240 hp in the latest variant, can make over 600hp

KA24DE : american 240SX nissan motor, found in most nissan 4 cylinder trucks and older altimas, lots of aftermarket and good stock output, and cheap

4G63 : Mitsubishi motor found in eclipse turbos and talon turbos, 215hp stock and very strong, one variant also used in the EVO making 250+ hp

420A : chrystler/ dodge motor, very mechanically similar to the mitsubishi 2 liter four, this engine is strong, huge aftermarket , with DOHC and SOHC versions, found in neons, avengers, stratuses, etc

H22/H23 : Honda Prelude motors, 200+ hp depending on variants

D16Zc : SOHC VTEC engine found in the 92-95 Civic Si and the 92-95 honda del sol Si, 123 HP 1.6 liter, small, cheap, and large aftermarket

5SFE : Toyota motor, found in older celica GT, and four cylinder camrys and some rav4s, good output, and tough, and cheap =)

13B : Rotay, 1.3 liters, anywhere from 110 hp to 160 hp NA, 210hp to 255 hp turbo.



i prefer toyota motors, but there are alot of really good 4bangers =)

Wasnt this exactly what I did?

[PaulGT2164]

Funny, thats not what mazda and my dealer says. I guess mazda just recalled the car cause of someone elses screw up.. yeah sure thats believable. Car companies are out to make money..

of course thats not what mazda says, they would just eat it than dispute it....lots of car companies do that, why risk court battles, and all the publicity, just add small rebates and what not...they are still selling like hot cakes

i know what i read, and the sources are trustworthy, and it makes perfect sense, but you can believe what you want, you know...its not like i work on them often or anything (about twice a week FYI) i know the car very very well, and i will attest to it making the 250+ hp originally stated....if i had a engine dyno and the resources i would prove it, but i dont, but luckily others have proved it already

"Furthermore, your talking about a 75 mph wind... so that means your not getting the correct hsp in 1st second or 3rd gears apparently if I understand you correctly.. So the only time someone is going to get a proper run without retarded timing is already going 75 and hitting the gas.. Thats kinda useless considering very few places do you accelerate hard from 75 mph. "

im just saying here that they need to simulate real world conditions. dynos are not really that accurate.



i dont particually care what you think, ive stated what i Know, so lets not do our usual bickering, ill stick to what i know, you stick to what you know

[itsthepham]

thats all crap .. the KING of four cylinder engines would be the Porsche 968 motor .. 3.0 liter Big Bore four ... Stock it puts out 240 H/p to the Crank .. if you need a motor .. that should be it .. i have a 944 and it pulls hard for a 8V .. the 968 engines are 16V and come with VarioCam - done deal