Note to America: Outsourcing Jobs is good for you...

[akumapc]

New Delhi -- Secretary of State Colin Powell, encountering the other side of a tempestuous debate in the United States, sought to assure Indians that the Bush administration would not try to halt the outsourcing of high-technology jobs to their country.

In a round of conversations with Indian leaders and college students on Tuesday, Powell found that the issue of the transfer of American jobs to India is as emotional in India as in the United States. But whereas American politicians have deplored the loss of such jobs, it is clear that the anxiety in India focuses on threats by some in Congress to try to stop the transfer by legislation.

In February, Gregory Mankiw, chairman of the White House Council of Economic Advisers, stirred a political outcry when he called the outsourcing of jobs a long-term benefit for the economy. While Powell said on Tuesday that "it is the reality of 21st century economics that these kinds of dislocations will take place," he was quick to add that the Bush administration would work to train people for new jobs.


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PHEW!!! I was getting worried for a minute that we would try to stop outsourcing our jobs and start to rebuild industry here in the U.S. with economic policies centered upon the creation of jobs in America. :shock:

[akumapc]

WASHINGTON -- The movement of U.S. factory jobs and white-collar work to other countries is part of a positive transformation that will enrich the U.S. economy over time, even if it causes short-term pain and dislocation, the Bush administration said yesterday.

The embrace of foreign "outsourcing," an accelerating trend that has contributed to U.S. job losses in recent years and become an issue in the 2004 elections, is contained in the president's annual report to Congress on the health of the U.S. economy.

"Outsourcing is just a new way of doing international trade," said N. Gregory Mankiw, chairman of Bush's Council of Economic Advisors, which prepared the report. "More things are tradable than were tradable in the past. And that's a good thing."

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Last month there were 21,000 jobs created in the U.S. (U.S. Department of Labor) and not a SINGLE one of those jobs was in the private sector, they were all government related. The current unemployment rate in the U.S. is calculated as 5.6% in Feb 2004 which is modest, however if you factor in people who are no longer receiving unemployment or are no longer looking that figure raises to just under 10%.

[corvette97]

mmmmmmmmmmm, good to know, i guess

[graywolf624]

unemployment rate in the U.S. is calculated as 5.6% in Feb 2004 which is modest, however if you factor in people who are no longer receiving unemployment or are no longer looking that figure raises to just under 10%.

These numbers are misleading. First off 5.6 percent unemployment is remarkable. Before the late 1990s we thought that natural unemployment rate was 6 percent and that to go below that we would have to increase interest rates. Britain meanwhile historically has not seen 5.6 percent. The numbers with people not looking for work is at 1.4 million. This however is not entirely representative either. of that 1.4 million only .4 million are discouraged workers(given up on finding a job). The other portion 1 million are recent retires/college students/other group not working via choice.
Also outsourcing is good for the united states. If we are able to follow the path of history then a technical innovation will come along to start us in a new field while having us get the current offerings cheaper elsewhere(everyone lives). If the govt wants to help they should be encouraging inventors and ignore the job migration.

-Economics minor Georgia Tech
-Member national economics honor society

[akumapc]

Thanks for the insight, allow me to offer some numbers which show a different side of the equation. To begin with, there are the 8.7 million unemployed, defined as those without a job who are actively looking for work. But lurking behind that group are 4.9 million part-time workers who want a full time position but can't get it.

There are also the 1.5 million people who want a job but didn't look for one in the last month. Nearly a third of this group say they stopped the search because they were too depressed about the prospect of finding anything. Officially termed "discouraged," their number has surged 20% in a year. Add these three groups together and the jobless total for the U.S. hits 9.7%, up from 9.4% a year ago.

You mentioned following a path of history and hoping for technical innovation to open a new field, however I would say this is a bit optimistic. If you look at some numbers provided by the bureau of Labor Statistics you'll see that our "Economic Recovery" does not follow the trends we would normally expect in any recession since World War 2. Typically in a recovery period you would see jobs being created, and a greater demand on our industrial base for it's products and services. Whats makes this "recovery" so different is that jobs are not being created at the levels one would expect out of a recession and demand for american goods aren't rising (textile industry, manufacturing, high-tech). Since we are exporting our high tech base out of the US, along with high tech companies, we are reducing our ability to create those innovative high tech products and services that we would otherwise depend on to bring us out of this economic downturn. In light of this, I believe it would be misleading to conclude that our current economic policies reflect a historical trend and therefore shouldn't be an matter of concern...

http://www.akumapc.com/politics/jobs.gif

[blah]

unemployment rate in the U.S. is calculated as 5.6% in Feb 2004 which is modest, however if you factor in people who are no longer receiving unemployment or are no longer looking that figure raises to just under 10%.

These numbers are misleading. First off 5.6 percent unemployment is remarkable. Before the late 1990s we thought that natural unemployment rate was 6 percent and that to go below that we would have to increase interest rates. Britain meanwhile historically has not seen 5.6 percent. The numbers with people not looking for work is at 1.4 million. This however is not entirely representative either. of that 1.4 million only .4 million are discouraged workers(given up on finding a job). The other portion 1 million are recent retires/college students/other group not working via choice.
Also outsourcing is good for the united states. If we are able to follow the path of history then a technical innovation will come along to start us in a new field while having us get the current offerings cheaper elsewhere(everyone lives). If the govt wants to help they should be encouraging inventors and ignore the job migration.

-Economics minor Georgia Tech
-Member national economics honor society

why dont you go on and tell that to the family that cant feed their kids cuz the guy in India has their job. have you tried to call tech support lately? its horrible, these guys cant speak a lick of english and they are suppose to help you? Bull shit, i had an experience with dell where i had to call 5 times for a sound card. Until finally last call i got an American. Also lets see how much you like outsourcing when your job is moved over seas. Also note that alot of people cant afford to go back to school for additional training, high tech jobs are the future problem is people cant just go back and take courses for these jobs if they cant afford the time, or money.

[RC45]

unemployment rate in the U.S. is calculated as 5.6% in Feb 2004 which is modest, however if you factor in people who are no longer receiving unemployment or are no longer looking that figure raises to just under 10%.

These numbers are misleading. First off 5.6 percent unemployment is remarkable. Before the late 1990s we thought that natural unemployment rate was 6 percent and that to go below that we would have to increase interest rates. Britain meanwhile historically has not seen 5.6 percent. The numbers with people not looking for work is at 1.4 million. This however is not entirely representative either. of that 1.4 million only .4 million are discouraged workers(given up on finding a job). The other portion 1 million are recent retires/college students/other group not working via choice.
Also outsourcing is good for the united states. If we are able to follow the path of history then a technical innovation will come along to start us in a new field while having us get the current offerings cheaper elsewhere(everyone lives). If the govt wants to help they should be encouraging inventors and ignore the job migration.

-Economics minor Georgia Tech
-Member national economics honor society

why don't you go on and tell that to the family that cant feed their kids cuz the guy in India has their job. have you tried to call tech support lately? its horrible, these guys cant speak a lick of english and they are suppose to help you? Bull shit, i had an experience with dell where i had to call 5 times for a sound card. Until finally last call i got an American. Also lets see how much you like outsourcing when your job is moved over seas. Also note that alot of people cant afford to go back to school for additional training, high tech jobs are the future problem is people cant just go back and take courses for these jobs if they cant afford the time, or money.

Exactly what I was going to say - in Houston and Austin we witnessed 10,000's of tech support jobs going to the Indian Sub-continent.

And it is not just the actual tech companies like Dell, HP/Compaq etc.. it is utility companies outsourcing their help desks.

I too hate speaking to foreign nationals that do not speak the best English - I have no problem with a foreign national (I am one afterall) getting the job - just move your fucking ass over to the USA and contribute to the society a little.

I think most people will have the same opinion about their own country as they observe friends and family all around get screwed over.

This exporting of jobs will have a knee-jerk swing a couple of years when it again becomes fashionable to do so.

Until then I just tell the foreign tech support person who answers to "F-Off and put me through to a US based person - I do not support your economy."

It works everytime.

[quote]
-Economics minor Georgia Tech
-Member national economics honor society

p.s. Wasn't it MBA's and Ecomomics majors that lead the rise and fall of the DotCom goldrush on "false promises of future success - right? ;) LOL

[davmac]

why dont you go on and tell that to the family that cant feed their kids cuz the guy in India has their job.
but there is a lot more opportunity in the states than there is in india. At least someone with out a job gets social assistance to feed their kids in the states, in india their kids would actualy starve.

[RC45]

why dont you go on and tell that to the family that cant feed their kids cuz the guy in India has their job.
but there is a lot more opportunity in the states than there is in india. At least someone with out a job gets social assistance to feed their kids in the states, in india their kids would actually starve.

Bullshit - social assistance?

Unless you already have 5 kids and are pregnant or if you are of the appropriate minority of the day, it is VERY difficult to qualify for state or federal assistance in the USA.

By the time you have dropped far enough down to reach the "official poverty line" you would have already proven you are gonna be a lazy shit and become a welfare case and slide even further down,

Or you say "fuck that - I am not going to have to deteriorate that much to qualify for assistance - let me go try something else" - but that "trying something else immediately outs you out of the "qualify for assistance" group.

Trust me - been there, done that.

[666fast]

Trust me - been there, done that.


Same here. Early last year I was laid off for three months. It sucked big time. Granted it wasn't long, but it was enough for me to never want to be out of work again.
As much as I didn't want to, I tried to collect unemloyment benefits. I didn't get a dime. I don't support many of the social assistance programs. I believe they create more problems than actually solving them. It was a lot of fun to go ask mom if I could borrow some money to pay my bills. I don't know about the rest of you, but I hate borrowing money from people. Especcially when you don't know when you will be able to pay it back.

I'm part of those statistics, I'm working part time and have been looking for a full time job for quite awhile. It really sucks, especially since I have very little experience. Since my sophmore year in high school, I've only had two jobs. The more people that are out of work, the more people there are that out qualify you. It sucks.

Do people in India need jobs? Of course they do, but a lot of people here need jobs too. I'll probably get flamed for this but, the US Government should care about it's own citizens before some other countries. Let thier countries create jobs for them.

I've been looking at schools lately trying to figure out what it is I'm gonna do with my life. I was looking at Software engineering and the like.
I might as well scratch that and become a plumber. The US will always need plumbers right?

So, when are all the burger flippers gonna be classified as manufacturing workers?

[graywolf624]

4.9 million part-time workers who want a full time position but can't get it.

The unemployment rate does not say who is looking for fulltime that has part time. Furthermore the unemployment was 8 percent for most of the 80s. The 1.5 million is up from 1.4 million from the january stats. Just as I said only .5 million are unemployed. This is nothing. This is what was normal before dot com. You can't compare things to the late 90s. It wasn't normal.

In light of this, I believe it would be misleading to conclude that our current economic policies reflect a historical trend and therefore shouldn't be an matter of concern...
Thats exactly what they said during the industrial revolution. Furthermore you guys do realize that there is a labor shortage in certain fields. So why it is hurting, health care is begging for people. It is short sighted to say that all the tech jobs are being deported so can't have innovation. Whos to say the next big wave is even computer related. You can't say that or assume that.

Also lets see how much you like outsourcing when your job is moved over seas.
First off. Im one of those unemployed.. Though I can tell you that the it sector is rebounding.
Second off. As an economist the benefits of the few is unimportant. Its the good of the whole that matters.

Wasn't it MBA's and Ecomomics majors that lead the rise and fall of the DotCom goldrush on "false promises of future success - right?
No those were investors. Many of the good economists forcasted "irrational exuberance"- alan greenspan 1996

This isn't to say there wont be backlash for lack of quality of foreign work. It is to say that getting products from someone with a better opportunity cost is ALWAYS a good idea. Free trade is the key to power. The best option is to have the work done at a given quality for the best possible cost.

[jasc]

4.9 million part-time workers who want a full time position but can't get it.

The unemployment rate does not say who is looking for fulltime that has part time.

But the involuntary part-time rate does ;)

[davmac]

why dont you go on and tell that to the family that cant feed their kids cuz the guy in India has their job.
but there is a lot more opportunity in the states than there is in india. At least someone with out a job gets social assistance to feed their kids in the states, in india their kids would actually starve.

Bullshit - social assistance?


it might be bullshit, but it's a hell of a lot better than the condidtions in countries such as india

[RC45]

why dont you go on and tell that to the family that cant feed their kids cuz the guy in India has their job.
but there is a lot more opportunity in the states than there is in india. At least someone with out a job gets social assistance to feed their kids in the states, in india their kids would actually starve.

Bullshit - social assistance?


it might be bullshit, but it's a hell of a lot better than the condidtions in countries such as india

Your point? I am here - not there.

[blah]

Social Assistance is the most bs thing ever. With politics playing a bigger and bigger role in it you would be suprised what happens. people are kicked off all the time just so the government can say that welfare use is on the decline.

[geekdiggy]

we all know where this thread is going...

[fishfreek]

The market also governs what jobs are outsourced and what jobs are inhouse. With Dell for example thy had such shitty service from their indian tech support outsourcing that just a few weeks ago I got promised that ALL tech support for higher education and govenment was being moved back state side.

I find it apauling to get someone on the other end of a tech support call whom speaks english as a second language.

Dont even get me started on those fucking POS welfare families. There are way to many lazy, fat assed people who have made a carear of being on welfare. Baby makers that are pregnant more than they are not prgenant. And each kid brings even more socal service help to a point where they acutally are told they cant get a job because they cant be away from the kids for that long.

I dont have a problem with welfare to those who need it on the short term but those who make a living out of being on welfare. Well they can go off to some fucking island to die for all i care.

[blah]

Well fish those people are bieng kicked off now. But most welfare if im not mistaken goes to business's, but its named something else i forget the name right now. O and i was undert he impression that dells service for government and higher was always here, when i call for my moms work laptop I always get an American, it whens i call for my dads pc when i get problems. I mean 5 fucking times for a replacement sound card. The dumbasss sent me out a Resource CD the first time, after i told him the sound card was done.

[fishfreek]

blah, Not sure but from my conversation with our colleges account executive with Dell he said from the feedback they had gotten they where pulling education and gvt support back to the US based employees and that there would be a ramping up period of time as they rehire all those employees they layed off before.

We have direct access to 'level 2' techs here and we do most of our ordering online so we dont talk to tech support very often but when we do its something that seriously has us stumped.

Its so nice being able to go in online and dispatch a harddrive or motherboard, etc to us with out having to fight some idiot support person who is reading his troubleshooting guide book.

[nthfinity]

there are a great many problems with outsourcing jobs. traditionally, most of these jobs were of the manufacturing area, and primarily blue coller. IBM had recently announced intentions to move a large number of its white coller to india, causing a possible first for white coller unions.

a large problem i have, as a full time student at a public university is the shear number for foriegners who are sent here by their parents who dont pay a lick of taxes that could go to the schools we do, and at WMU, all that is required for in state tuition is 1 fucking year, while my parents have been paying taxes in michigan for 35+ years, and both graduated from public schools.
i hate that, and i feel serously shafted when tuition rates keep rising because a lack of enough funding. fuck, the ratios of us- (primarily indian, asian) has gone the *wrong direction....

[fishfreek]

The only people that benifit from outsorcing is the country that the outsourcing is done to and sometimes the greedy pockets of the executives who made the decision.

[Anonymous]

I dont like it whe i call a 1800# to talk to someone about my phone problem i dont want to talk to some middle easterner that i cant understand.

other than that i really dont care.

i didnt read any of the post but it looks like a lot of other people cares. well thats good that some people care.

as for me i can always make money in the U.S. i still know people that have a very profitable project that will always be in demand

[graywolf624]

The only people that benifit from outsorcing is the country that the outsourcing is done to and sometimes the greedy pockets of the executives who made the decision.

Wrong. From economics we know that we all benefit. We spend less for the products we buy because costs are less. The country too gains cash. Everyone wins as a whole, albeit some individuals lose. Greedy pockets is kind of funny. Cause in reality capitalism only works because of greed and communism/socialism can't work because of it.

[spicymustard]

Quote:

The only people that benifit from outsorcing is the country that the outsourcing is done to and sometimes the greedy pockets of the executives who made the decision.


Wrong. From economics we know that we all benefit. We spend less for the products we buy because costs are less. The country too gains cash. Everyone wins as a whole, albeit some individuals lose. Greedy pockets is kind of funny. Cause in reality capitalism only works because of greed and communism/socialism can't work because of it.



This is true, well mostly the greed part could use some revision. Any one that does not support free trade is a stinky hippy.

Then again I am an economics major so have been programed to support the capitalist system we (those not living in Finland, Sweeden, China, France, looks like Spain now, the Netherlands, etc) live in. (not that any of those countries are bad I love Paris, and who does not like Amsterdam. They just have heavy inefficient welfare states that depress growth and Free trade) Hope I did not piss off anyone.

[blah]

how are we gonna harbor the fruits of the cheaper goods, if we cant afford the goods, cuz we dont have a steady secure job?

[Zonda11]

The only people that benifit from outsorcing is the country that the outsourcing is done to and sometimes the greedy pockets of the executives who made the decision.

Ya, It's all about the executives making even more money. The indians will work for an amount that is considered a good salary in their country......but, that amount is easily less that what companies like Dell would have to pay Americans.

[graywolf624]

how are we gonna harbor the fruits of the cheaper goods, if we cant afford the goods, cuz we dont have a steady secure job?

Yet again. Tech advancement opens up new fields.. and some fields currently are hurting for people. I can guarentee if you live in the right area a hospital would beg you to work for them.
If I had to guess the fields of the future.. quantum computing, information security, potential mars technology, ect.



Ya, It's all about the executives making even more money. The indians will work for an amount that is considered a good salary in their country......but, that amount is easily less that what companies like Dell would have to pay Americans.

Generally executives don't make more money just because their company does. Sure they benefit through options.. but if the ceo sells his options it generally causes a major dip in stock prices before his shares are sold since hes required to announce way ahead of time. It is minimal especially in the wake of the recent crack downs on ceo salaries.

The extra money goes into dividends for shareholders, investment in future technology, investment in other companys, or to pay off companies debts. It also leads eventually to lower prices as all the companies do it and thus must lower their prices to compete.. Competitve companies sell at marginal cost=price. marginal cost is going to fall if they can pay workers less.

[blah]

Yea but how many people can just drop what they are doing and go to school for another 8 years, some 12 years. Alot of people who had those mfg jobs didnt go to college.

[graywolf624]

Yea but how many people can just drop what they are doing and go to school for another 8 years, some 12 years. Alot of people who had those mfg jobs didnt go to college.

Yet again.. individuals don't matter.. The whole does. No one said life was fair. To try and correct the situation you will just make the situation worse (from both an individual and country standpoint).

[nthfinity]

hmm... i have yet to see the auto industry having products which are cheaper (GM) while sending factory jobs to mexico from michigan.... then again, most GM products have a cheap look/feel to them.
the cheap feel is in a great many of the cars in the other manufacturers as well, but GM generally is seeming to be winning in making cars that dont look fresh. but mabey thats just me
However, I am all about free trade, and expanding buisnesses in capitolism, rather then shifting greatly. although, i know a plant can not run efficiantly in a building which is 100 years old....

[graywolf624]

i have yet to see the auto industry having products which are cheaper (GM) while sending factory jobs to mexico from michigan.... then again, most GM products have a cheap look/feel to them.
the cheap feel is in a great many of the cars in the other manufacturers as well, but GM generally is seeming to be winning in making cars that dont look fresh. but mabey thats just me
However, I am all about free trade, and expanding buisnesses in capitolism, rather then shifting greatly. although, i know a plant can not run efficiantly in a building which is 100 years old....


The interesting thing here is that gm has adapted toyotas lean manufacturing process. This is why they are breaking even. They aren't really doing that well though. They have an outside cost. Particularly 3-4 x as many retired employees then workers that they must pay retirement too. Ford meanwhile is still heading towards bankruptcy. These 2 are definitly propping up the market prices because of their outside costs. Then there are also tarriffs worldwide on certain car related items. Toyota is the only manufacturer that is making obsorbinent profits on their cars. And frankly while they are reliable cars, I feel if you compare the features of a camry (for example) to other cars in that price range the other cars have 10x as many features. However,they are riding off their reliability reputation.

[monabonejakon2002]

I'll tell you what is funny/ironic/sad.

Americans have always been going on about how Immigrants are taking their jobs. Well, they are taking jobs, but they are jobs that Americans don't want to do!

Now we have fortune 500 companies giving away jobs to other countries, and these are jobs that Americans want (and need).

Amazing.

[fishfreek]

http://news.com.com/2100-1001-5182611.html?part=dht&tag=ntop

Dell admits it has "learned its lesson" after being forced to drop its Indian call center last year following customer complaints about the quality of service.

The call center operation for the OptiPlex desktops and Latitude laptops was moved back to the United States. Dell CIO Randy Mott said in an interview that the Bangalore center was unable to deal satisfactorily with the volume of calls generated by the rapid growth of those product lines.

"In that example we were not as efficient as we wanted to be," he said. "We were growing very quickly in that (consumer) segment. It got a little ahead of us. We took the decision to get it back under control. Our customers expect more from Dell than other companies, and we weren't meeting those (expectations)."

Surveys released in February showed that, while Dell's market share has continued to grow, customer satisfaction has declined. The company has acknowledged the problem and said steps are being taken to improve tech support and other customer services. Mott did not rule out future expansion in India and said Dell has a policy of "all shoring"--spreading jobs throughout Dell's global reach--wherever the right skills are to meet the needs of its global business.

"We certainly learned a lot of things, and we'll be smarter about our growth in newly developed areas," he said.

Mott has been CIO at Dell for four years now after his move from U.S. retail giant Wal-Mart Stores, and said being CIO for a technology company has its good and bad points.

"One of the positive things about it is you have a management team that understands the importance of technology," he said.

In Mott's time at Dell, the IT budget has dropped from 1.91 percent of revenue to 1.44 percent, though of larger revenue, and the company is spending less in real dollar terms. Mott said he plans to bring that down even further to around 1 percent of revenue, but that is likely to mean an actual dollar increase, given Dell's ambitions to be a $60 billion revenue company by 2005.

And Dell is getting more out of its own IT for that money. Mott said his department completed 480 projects last year and has 650 on the table this year, with 60 percent of the 3,000 IT staff now working in development.

Internally the priorities include the Dell enterprise data warehouse, its global online shop and the migration from Sun Solaris running proprietary Unix to Red Hat Linux, which is set to be completed this year. Externally with its own product set, a lot of resource is also going into development around applications for Dell's "one-stop shop" services business.

One area Dell won't be looking at for its own needs is outsourcing. Mott admitted that outsourcing can lead to an "average" IT cost for some firms but said IT is a core part of Dell's business.

"The last thing we want is an average cost structure," he said. "We consider IT a core competency. It is something we look to for sustainable competitive advantage."

[pranesh76]

Some interesting points to think about. If outsourcing were to stop, inflation would rise to ridiculous amounts. Way more than what you would get in raises every year. Would ANYONE be willing to pay $1000 for technical support for 1 year instead of $150 for 1 year. Its not an exact number but imagine you pay a tech service person $45K instead of 10K. Business sense wise, it makes perfect sense to outsource. As for hiring people who can barely speak english, I agree completely that they need to pick who to hire more carefully.

The basic point is this. Outsourcing is necessary to keep inflation down. Until the economy as a whole recovers, there is no choice but to keep doing what they have been doing.

Or if you disagree, think of it this way. For every 5 jobs outsourced, there is enough money left over for 2 jobs. Otherwise, there would be only 3 jobs in total and you would have to wait(in the dell customer service example), 20 mins instead of 10 to get a rep. Pick and choose what you would rather have.

[RC45]

Outsourcing is necessary to keep inflation down. Until the economy as a whole recovers, there is no choice but to keep doing what they have been doing.

Or if you disagree, think of it this way. For every 5 jobs outsourced, there is enough money left over for 2 jobs. Otherwise, there would be only 3 jobs in total and you would have to wait(in the dell customer service example), 20 mins instead of 10 to get a rep. Pick and choose what you would rather have.

Bull.

[pranesh76]

What is so "bull" about it? Which part of that dont you agree with?

Think of software engineers that are outsourced. They get the job done with 1/5 the money.

Profits are increased, and so more jobs are created here in the states.

It seems pretty clear cut to me.

[pranesh76]

Or are you referring to inflation? So think of this. Bring back all the mfg from other countries back to the states. Think of silicon chips for example.

a $.45 chip will end up costing $5. Who ends up paying? Consumers. Doesnt that equal to inflation?

[graywolf624]

pran- while I agree with your underlying concept, your terminology is poor. That is not what inflation is. The price of the goods we buy are decreased courtesy of the outsourcing(as was previously stated). That is just one benefit to outsourcing. Their is also the benefits of wage shifting and more goods all around.
Inflation though would only apply if we were talking goods that did not have a viable alternative(something like food). Inflation is generally not a function of 1 sector. See CPI for more information.

[pranesh76]

Good point. Thanks for clarifying that for me graywolf.